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I may be naive, but I’d trust China as much as I’d trust the USA and the Uk.
That's the sort of cynicism which leads to people believing 5G conspiracy theories they read on Facebook. Western government are far from perfect but they are far more accountable than the CCP.
You have a Cabinet largely purged of talent or certainly what I might call true leadership. The likes of Gove might be clever but they aren't true leaders more like schemers. It's really disappointing. Boris is a good times PM, a Brexit showboater, far from ideal in this crisis even if he wasn't very ill. Maybe I'm getting old but give me any of Major, Blair or Brown at this time. At least you could believe you had a responsible adult at the wheel with gravitas despite their obvious faults (especially Blair).
Just a thought....
Should Labour engage in some form of government of national unity or go in for the kill?
I have empathy for Boris Johnson in his personal predicament but no sympathy. Were in a mess entirely of his own making. Like Trump he has assembled a clan of yes men who are running around like headless chickens. The current mob are so dismal they have us pining for Jeremy Hunt for flip sake.
The Tories have gone from a huge majority to looking like a wounded animal and maybe they should be put down as soon as possible. The new style government that Dom and Bojo have assembled has fallen at the first hurdle and should not be propped up. It's not because they are tories that I say this it is that this new style of government is systemically unfit for purpose.
Take them to the wet meat market I say. I posted on the Labour leadership thread a couple of months back that it would be a mistake to surrender to the idea of 10 years of Tory rule, I said at the time that were living in volatile times and mentioned the black swan idea about unforseen events and even suggested that coronavirus could have a role in upsetting the political apple cart.
Labour need to grow a pair and grow them quickly. They've assembled a shadow cabinet that looks massively more impressive than the real cabinet and we couldn't have said that a few months ago. Don't get sucked in to this we're all in this together shtick, if you do then the Jacob Lynch Mobs of this world will have us on toast and we'll wake up in a few months time feeling rather sore in the posterior.
Sorry if this is a digression from the essential nature of this thread but it's after midnight so it'll be gone by the morning. Maybe we need a coronavirus and it's political and economic implications thread to keep this one on track.
I'll start one now, titled 'We're all in this together yeah?'
Rydster,
Western governments are only more accountable than the CCP if we hold them to account. We aren't at the moment, were being sedated by the 'were all in this together' lie and were about to get forked.
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30845-X/fulltext
New piece regarding the potential of a second wave.
Also talks about the CFR.
Based on Chinese data.
Somethings definitley afoot with Priti Patel, Kay Burley just grilled a Tory MP about her whereabouts/what shes doing and he was unconvincng with every answer. Its probably as simple that shes toxic and will say something controversial like hanging/deporting anyone breaking lockdown rules
More great stuff from TiRed!
BBC News reporting the Passport Office staff being sent back to work in batches for social distancing. Not sure why they are a key role with FCO no travel guidance, other than emergency passports to repatriate, which I thought embassies dealt with?
MrsMC back in the office today. Domestic violence cases going up, families in crisis need dealing with, no official guidance from managers how SW deal with balancing statutory roles with practical safety and no PPE in sight. Bugger!
Is the Passport Office thing Pritti Patel's area? The message staff were given has her trademark subtlety all over it according to the BBC report!
It could be she is genuinely frightened and has gone to ground.
Not sure why they are a key role with FCO no travel guidance, other than emergency passports to repatriate, which I thought embassies dealt with?
Yeah the passport office is Home Office territory I believe. There's certain oddball circumstances that need passport offices functioning like babies born abroad that need bringing back to the UK now, but probably doesn't need whole offices re-opened. That said, if they can run a minimal function safely then its one less aspect of life that isn't building up a massive backlog while were locked down. If you can do it online I expect renewals will be pretty constant even though people don't need them, they conversely have more spare time to do jobs like that.
For those interested in the daily reporting of deaths and the respective figures from PHE, NHS and ONS..
This is how yesterday's NHS figures break down:
Table of the date of 828 deaths reported for the 8th April.
Date Number of Deaths
07-April 2020 135
06-April 2020 306
05-April 2020 162
04-April 2020 93
03-April 2020 63
02- April 2020 23
01-April 2020 17
31-March 2020 1
: :
04-March 2020 1
Total 828
In other words, keep looking at the trend not the daily headline.
I got out of the covid ward earlier in the week. Had 9 nights there and one failed discharged when I bounced back within 4 hours.
To be honest, it all got quite grim at one point. I was on hourly obs and they had a bed ready for me in ITU. Dodged that bullet though, partially by choosing to sit up all night and take charge of my breathing, it was hard work but I was not prepared to just lay down and deteriorate further. I had about three days of being properly, scarily ill.
Home now but a long way to go. Lungs are functioning really badly so I get breathless and knackered quickly. Nothing I can really do to accelerate recovery, just need to give it time.
Four guys on my part of the ward, three of us under 45 years old and no underlying health conditions between us. Scary stuff.
Frank, It's good to see your post. That's great news albeit a long way to go. If anyone still underestimates this illness, your experience is worth sharing. Take care and rest well.
Glad to hear you're back at home @Franksinatra it sounds horrendous, take it easy and keeping posting updates.
Scary stuff.
Sounds it.
Glad to have you back with us.
Really feel for your family watching you go through this.
All the best Franko, good to hear you're home.
Glad to hear you’re home Frank.
good to see you back
by choosing to sit up all night and take charge of my breathing
hope you don't mind - but what do you mean by this?
@ Inkster. 're the markets
Maybe the virus didn't actually come from a bat toastie, after all, so why deprive the citizens of Wuhan of their tasty treats?
Pangolin pasty, anyone?
Great to hear you have returned home Frank. Cheered my morning up!
That's good news this morning.
Your "I'm a fighter" badge from Dominic Raab will be in the post.
by choosing to sit up all night and take charge of my breathing
hope you don’t mind – but what do you mean by this?
Yes Frank this 'start spreading the news' IGMC
good to see you back.
Yay! Glad your back mate.
Welcomoe back Frank. I dodged the admission bullet by the same breathing. I think fitness does help here. O2 transport will be more efficient in a healthy cyclist compared to the great untrained. So for less lung function, you probably have slightly better SATS. 14-days in an my lungs still hurt and climbing the stairs leaves me breathless.
It could be she is genuinely frightened and has gone to ground.
She might have an underlying medical condition that means she really should not be out in public. I have no idea btw.
To be fair to Patel, she wanted a different approach to international travel earlier, to help contain the virus rather than have a “controlled” spread of it in the UK. Hard for her to be a major part of fronting the government response after being slapped down when questioning the approach taken.
I wish the UK leadership had more in common with NZ. Jacinda Ardern didn’t **** around.
By going to the beach during a pandemic?
Really glad to hear you’re on the road to recovery FrankSinatra
Somehow Sunak has managed to escape this cabinet of curiosities and emerged as his own man, to the surprise of many, including me!
Yeah, handing our great big wads of cash will do that.
Glad to see you're back amongst the land of the living frank
Western governments are only more accountable than the CCP if we hold them to account
Which we get to do every election cycle.
There is a fashionable trend which believes it is oh so clever in identifying problems with Western governments that it is able to 'prove' that the whole system is corrupt and useless. This is an absurd conclusion made by those with no experience of autocracy, dictatorships or other closed-societies.
@franksinatra Glad you are back with us. Hope you have a good rest and manage to stay away from hospitals for a while!
Which we get to do every election cycle.
We get the opportunity to do it, but we don't.
Yes, our society is nothing like a proper dictatorship or police state or whatever - that is hyperbole; but we still have a significant democratic deficit. It's caused by both the electorate not giving a shit or not bothering to understand what's going on, and by the FPTP system.
Our system does not work very well. Most people are against fat cats getting rich off the labour of the working class, and yet we still have Tory goverments. This does not make a lot of sense.
Misinformation has been a signature move of this government, theyve learned from Trump!
it helps you win elections, but if you want to unify the country in a time of crisis, not so much
Well worth a watch
Ok.
Can we take the politics elsewhere please. Some of these aren’t particularly relevant to the thread.
by choosing to sit up all night and take charge of my breathing
Good to see you back @franksinatra - fingers crossed for a full and snag-free recovery.
Fwiw, I've had similar, though (probably) milder symptoms to TiRed and tried to avoid lying on my back as much as possible. Breathing definitely easier sat up. Fwiw, to me it felt a little like bivvying at 4500m for the first time without adequate acclimatisation, which I think maybe helped a little psychologically as it was oddly familiar. Last two days my RHR has dropped markedly, HRV back to normal and mostly I'm just left feeling absolutely knackered with a residual cough.
Looking back at my HRV / calendar, I think I would have shaken it after a week, but despite it being obvious with hindsight, it never occurred to me that I could have something wrong, so made the idiot error of doing a couple of hilly rides over the first lockdown weekend with a mildly tight chest, which I think knocked me back, cue two weeks of rubbishness.
Only posting this really to say that if you do feel even slightly off, my advice would be to take it properly easy. After an initial headache and vomiting, plus shivering / high temp stuff, all I had was a mild cough, slight shortness of breath and just a feeling of being slightly 'not quite right'. I am a muppet.
Western governments are only more accountable than the CCP if we hold them to account
Which we get to do every election cycle.
The consequences of a dissatisfied population in a Western Democracy are extremely limited.
Yes a ruling party can be thrown out by voters, but what does that actually mean? If, for example, the Tories were to lose the next general election because voters were dissatisfied with their record in government it would not, in any meaningful way, create a change in privilege, wealth, and power. Those with privilege, wealth, and power, always survive pretty much intact with every change of government.
In contrast the potential consequences of a dissatisfied population in China are catastrophic for the ruling elite, ie they stand to lose everything. And whilst ruthless repression is undoubtedly a weapon in their armoury it requires a bit more than just that in a population of well over a billion.
So not pissing off the population is undoubtedly a very important strategy to the ruling elite in China. They try to guarantee that in a variety of ways such as providing ever increasing standards of living and quickly building temporary hospitals to deal with viral pandemics.
My understanding is that the Chinese people in mainland China are generally patriotic and supportive of their government. Certainly more so than say a country such as the United States where hating your own government is seen by many as their patriotic duty.
Wonder if the Home Secretary is also out of step with policy on this in her own department, so being kept out the limelight
BBC News - Coronavirus: Passport Office staff told to go back to work
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-5221993
Be very interesting to see if we are ever in a position to trace how things spread in the UK
Big events like Cheltenham Festival, Music gigs etc surely the route of infection for many people
German health minister Jens Spahn suggested there could be “a gradual return to normality” after Easter if the current positive trend in numbers continues.
Even in the worst affected nations there are reasons for optimism. Reports in Italy suggest restrictions could be eased on 4 May.
From BBC news, I hope they're right, but it does seem a tad optimistic.
Scottish Environment Minister has finally published a statement on outdoor access which states 'please do not travel in your car to take exercise' which is helpful for me. Some other classifications in the link too.
https://www.gov.scot/publications/ministerial-statement-on-access-rights-during-covid-19/
The consequences of a dissatisfied population in a Western Democracy are extremely limited
The law of unintended consquence...
Across the world, we have had various and assorted revolutions culminating in the widespread adoption of one man, one vote type democracies. We've fought for the ability to choose. Then we're presented with two choices which look like largely alike.
Still, better than being repressed peasants suffering widespread poverty and disease...
People are just not adhereing to lockdown and i fear stricter rules coming.
Just read a report about hundreds of house parties being closed down in Manchester on the bbc site. Crazy. Why do some people think and act like this?
Out for a cycle last night and passed a bunch of about 20 year olds having a fire, music and drink together on top of a local viewpoint. I stopped, told them to go home, stop being selfish and cycled on. Then got to the car park at the bottom of the trail. 6 or 7 cars there, including a 50 to 60 year old guy getting out his car and putting his walking boots on.
Here I felt guilty about buying paint when I was getting food shopping.
You just refuted your own argument by implying the Chinese people only have recourse to the gun and violence.
If anything this crisis has been an eye-opener into both how dumb and ill-disciplined large swaths of the UK population are.
@FrankSinatra - again good to see you back, best of luck with the continued recovery.
including a 50 to 60 year old guy getting out his car and putting his walking boots on.
Here I felt guilty about buying paint when I was getting food shopping.
Maybe its my natural paranoia but I felt guilty / like dodging the zombies when doing our Sainburys shop (can't get a delivery) today. Yet still people seem to think it doesn't apply to them - no gloves, no mask, no observing any kind of distance - with one elderly chap pulling down his mask to tell me how hot and sweaty it was under it, FFS. That kind go shit happens yet here we are wiping down every item in the bags before it goes through the door.
Just read a report about hundreds of house parties being closed down in Manchester on the bbc site. Crazy. Why do some people think and act like this?
Honest belief in personal invulnerability.
Or, believing the conspiracy theories about it being 5g killing people with radiation.
Or, just stupid.
Never underestimate stupid.
That kind go shit happens yet here we are wiping down every item in the bags before it goes through the door.
Isn't that exactly why you're doing that?
Honest belief in personal invulnerability.
I kind of get it. As an experiment, I tried to imagine how climbing, motorcycling, 'won't live past 30' living in London, me in my 20s would have coped / reacted. Not good I think. The government needs to find a way of reaching this demographic instead of threatening us en masse with loss of exercise privileges.
And yeah, also lots of stupid out there. The really thick kids at school, they're still around just disguised as grown-ups 😉
by choosing to sit up all night and take charge of my breathing
hope you don’t mind – but what do you mean by this?
Fair question.
For COVID sufferers it is all about your O2 levels. Lungs don't work well, for most of us we also get pneumonia and the result is O2 levels below 90%. At night these get even worse. When 02 levels stay low you get organ damage and that is when you are into ITU territory. When I was most ill, my O2 levels were hovering around 90%, even when wearing a mask with hi flow 02. Things always got worse at night. Sleeping, resting back, anything at night just made it worse. In my case worse meant hovering around ITU levels of O2 and that scared the life out of me. So I chose not to sleep and, instead, sit very upright and really concentrate on slowing breathing and finding the balance point between deep breaths and coughing (one nearly always results in the the other!). This seemed to keep levels just high enough and, critically, it meant like I felt I was retaining some control on what was happening to me. I am not sure how much was psychological or how much it even helped but it felt important to me to retain some control. I've since seen various videos from doctors about controlling breathing and it seems to tie in with what I did.
For those interested, O2 levels now, 2 weeks on and since being home for 4 days are still around 95%. Way better than they were but it goes to show that damage has been done and it it going to take a while to get back to normal.
Isn’t that exactly why you’re doing that?
Of course, but him speaking in my direction a) expose me unnecessarily and c) exposing him unnecessarily which is my actual point, my point being to highlight the stupidity or "it won't happen to me" mentality of some people.
I could be carrying C19 on my clothes or skin into the house now, unfortunately not having a full HASMAT shower / incinerator to burn my clothes at my disposal .
I'm out doing deliveries to shops and the vast majority are full of old people who are not adhering to the distance rules. Everywhere is busy with people buying stuff for a party at the weekend and the roads are unusually busy compared to earlier in the week. The staff in the shops are trying to tell people that they're for essentials only but that just makes people get angry. Seen a few caravans and campers heading towards West Wales too.
I fear the lockdown is no longer being obeyed by more people every day.
I fear the lockdown is no longer being obeyed by more people every day.
Certainly true where I am. The number of vehicles on the road and in car parks is definitely higher this week compared to the previous two.
So for less lung function, you probably have slightly better SATS.
As a chronic asthmatic who's had his 'extremely vulnerable' letter, I'm clinging to the idea that I've spent a lifetime with a physiology that maximises my SATS even though my airways are being total dicks and closing up at a moment's notice. And a 'muscle memory' for optimal forced breathing and improving airflow into the depths of my lungs.
Going for a regular ride helps me clear my airways out, so it's not something I'm keen to give up.
I will be interested to see the stats for asthmatics after all this is done in a year or so's time. Hopefully I won't be one of the stats!
with one elderly chap pulling down his mask to tell me how hot and sweaty it was under it, FFS
does reinforce what we've been told* about healthy people wearing masks - creates humid area around the mouth, and encourages more face touching; worse than not wearing one.
*or has it changed again?
I will be interested to see the stats for asthmatics after all this is done in a year or so’s time. Hopefully I won’t be one of the stats!
You might be interested to hear that due to the reduction in white blood cells during the infection, my respiratory consultant colleague reports that asthma symptoms seem to decline on the Covid ward. He said he was treating three of his severe asthmatic patients and none had wheeze. Viral infections are triggers for exacerbations, however. So swings and roundabouts.
My psoriasis also went down markedly with infection, but is racing back now. I take that as a positive!
A German doctor on Eins Extra earlier was reassuring asthmatics. He said that unless your asthma is bad enough to significantly reduce lung capacity/efficiency it won't reduce survival chances. So if you are fine with your usual medication don't worry (anymore than anyone else would).
The preliminary results of the Heinsburg study are out. The Guardian gets across the essentials from the speech on TV earlier. The study is being used as the basis for political decisions, the main conclusion being that whilst it was the close proximity and bottle sharing of party goers that got the cluster underway, the social distancing measures adopted since then have worked, and that with appropriate measures a progressive a return to normal can be envisaged for not only Heinsburg but the whole country.
I won't link the orignal German report, the Guardian's interpretation is good enough.
I find it absurd that NHS staff are being gagged with threatening letters when there was so much criticism of the Chinese government's handling of the doctor who broke the news to the world.
I fear the lockdown is no longer being obeyed by more people every day.
Yep, people are bored or are showing a general apathy toward it. Hence, Its likely to be fully enforced upon us very soon I fear.
Up here I’d say more and more are sticking to the lockdown the A1 is the extremely quiet. People taking heed in shops buy yes there’s a tiny percentage who aren’t.
including a 50 to 60 year old guy getting out his car and putting his walking boots on.
Off for his exercise?
many thanks
yes, the NHS thing is ridiculous, those responsible should be ashamed
came into the office for the first time in about three weeks to pick some stuff up and it was like 28 days later for most of the drive in.
I quite liked it...
It could be she is genuinely frightened and has gone to ground.
I believe it's generally acknowledged in whitehall that she has a smirking problem. Not a good look now.
@TiRed - do you have a public twitter we can follow?
If you want to see people with no understanding of figures, mathematics, trends and statistics roil themselves into a mental breakdown, look no further than this:
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/coronavirus/3875190-Worse-than-Italy?pg=3
The generally good grammar and lack of "hun xxx" at the end of every sentence indicates these are some of the smarter members of society too.
I find it absurd that NHS staff are being gagged with threatening letters when there was so much criticism of the Chinese government’s handling of the doctor who broke the news to the world.
Are we?
I’ve found out this am my 92 year old gran was taken in through the night with corona type symptoms. 😢
anyone got stats for current hospital bed capacity, and icu capacity, and how much is used and is left at the moment?
Just curious so see how we are fairing on that front at the minute?
Fingers crossed for you Drac. You've been a voice of considered reason on this thread, horrible that it's getting closer to all of us.
Thanks MoreCrash. Yes it was only a matter time before it reached someone in my family and she’s only 1 of a few who are extremely vulnerable.
came into the office for the first time in about three weeks to pick some stuff up and it was like 28 days later for most of the drive in.
Up here I’d say more and more are sticking to the lockdown the A1 is the extremely quiet. People taking heed in shops buy yes there’s a tiny percentage who aren’t.
Ditto.
Very well observed in my area. Plenty of dicks around but they make up a tiny percentage. Roads deserted, my work deserted social distancing excellent. It won't last for ever but at the moment it's incredible.
Awful news Drac.
Will be thinking of you all.
Fingers crossed for her Drac.
Quiet around here too. Sunday levels of traffic, or less.
Are we?
Apparently so:
Hardly surprising that people are getting bored / tired of the lockdown.people will be people and kids will be kids especially.
Let's be honest, it's not really a lockdown, it's only 'advisory', more like a serving suggestion.
When you see the Scottish chief medical officer twice visiting her second home against her own 'advice'. When we all have a giggle at Jose Morinhio being a naughty boy taking his players training in a public park what do you expect?
Maybe it's because the gov't doesn't have the police numbers or maybe the gov't secretly wants us to spread the disease a 'bit'. I can't say.
Seeing Sturgeon stick up for her CMO was appaling. It set the worst possible example. Just saw a Daily Telegraph headline saying that sacking the CMO puts mob ahead of public health. That's both moronic and oxymoronic at the same time, I say to the Telegraph- 'your so stupid you're not even wrong.
The CMO should have been sacked instantly, and then arrested. Not saying what the punishment should be (that would be an ecumenical matter as the say) but at the very least a visit from the police would have sent out a clear and effective message. Ditto with Maureen.
As it is our politicians are sending out mixed messages at best. To me it suggests they want a certain amount of disobedience on the part of the public but I think that's dangerous. The messaging from the gov't has been so inept it leaves us all guessing, just like the gov't really. We're all in this together in that we're all guessing.
When are the grown ups going to enter the room, I'm tired of being led by donkeys.
Has anyone else noticed loads of pensioners out for long walks etc?
Whilst out on my No Car, No Gnar and Not Far ride (about 2 hours starting at 0930) with my kids yesterday I decided to keep count of people who appeared to be of pensionable age vs those who were not.
Pensioners out for a ramble = 9
Younger people out = 5
I noticed a similar ratio from my driveway whilst working on my van too.
The government both want a lockdown and don't want a lockdown which is the problem.
The lockdown fulfils a necessary function in this health emergency but the government doesn't want to be the nasty teacher taking the toys away from the kids.
So they half-arse it and the mixed messages get sent.
Populism is democracy at its worst with a government which cowers in fear of the people instead of standing up and leading in their best interests. This BoJo cabinet got where it is by seeing which way the wind was blowing and heading in that direction. It's hardly surprising that they are scared to take a position which may be necessarily unpopular with many people.
The CMO should have been sacked instantly, and then arrested. Not saying what the punishment should be (that would be an ecumenical matter as the say) but at the very least a visit from the police would have sent out a clear and effective message.
She should have been first in line. After Prince Charles and his retinue.
. To me it suggests they want a certain amount of disobedience on the part of the public but I think that’s dangerous.
It's been said before, but the modelling accepts that people are human and there simply won't be 100% adherence to the guidelines. It's taken into account. There are not enough policemen and women to enforce the guidelines, even if they were legally able to do so.
That doesn't mean that it wouldn't be more effective if fewer people complied. And it doesn't mean the government wants non-compliance. It just means it's impossible to achieve.
Maybe some of that is a failure of messaging or an inability to effectively target some groups of people, but that's a slightly different thing.
Maybe targeted action against breaches most likely to transmit the virus - groups of people in enclosed, inside spaces seems like the obvious one - is the way forward, but it may be easier to say than do.
Dont asthmatics have stronger lung function due to pushing and pullimg past a restricted area
I wonder if this is a help when the lungs loose function and become saturated
(about 2 hours starting at 0930)
Thought we were allowed 1 hour only?
Thought we were allowed 1 hour only?
Gove fake news.