Definitely crap if the aim is for always 100% accuracy. If however the aim is for a very quick easy test which doesn't necessarily need to be 100% accurate, then apparently it isn't that bad:
Professor Michael Mina, Harvard School of Public Health, said: "There is a spectrum of infectious amounts of the COVID-19 virus and we show that LFTs are likely to detect cases 90-95% of the time when people are at their most infectious.
"The tests could achieve even 100% sensitivity when viral loads are at their peak and therefore catch nearly everyone who is currently a serious risk to public health."
Be good for Bristol to get some recognition other than the Bristol Stool scale Which is a bit crap.
Although I think Delta variant O.R has a ring to it.
Be good for Bristol to get some recognition other than the Bristol Stool scale Which is a bit crap.
How crap?
Prof Peter Openshaw Just been on BBC news - speaking in a personal capacity says, take matters into our own hands, wear masks, wash hands, etc. don't wait for gov policy, do everything we can NOW to get the rates down so we can have some sort of Christmas. He is concerned that if nothing is done there will be an awful Christmas. He advises cycle and don't take public transport and wfh where possible. This transmission is unacceptable atm, also the numbers of deaths.
Scud - we took the Zoe antibodies test a few weeks ago. The result was no antibodies as they only tell you if you've had them from the virus, not if you have them from the jab.
Martin Hutch - Thanks for a laugh, I needed that.
Be good for Bristol to get some recognition other than the Bristol Stool scale Which is a bit crap.
Bristol is Cocaine capital of the UK apparently (according to Steven Merchant on Last Leg last night).
My other half (primary school teacher) ill last night, positive LFT this morning. Already has CFS after a virus a few years ago, so who knows how this will go.
[ resists rant about the government doing this to us, the whole county that is, as I’ve done that enough already ]
Best wishes kelvin, hopefully it's a milder dose.
Been told I need to travel to Sheffield for a team get to gather In a few weeks, involving sitting in a room for 2 days solid with a group of people whom all have school aged kids
I personally think this is a plain stupid idea but given I'll have to go is it fair to demand full social distancing occurs throughout the 2 days? Or is that no longer a thing in England?
@tpbiker Remind your line manager of the need to protect Health that is in The Health & Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. Then ask what mitigation measures will be in place to restrict transmission.
Possibly suggest that not having a risk assessment and control measures in place is not a good look for a national concern that HSE will take pleasure in using as a "Don't do that" example.
Kelvin - you are really having a bad time atm. Really hope your wife recovers quickly. I myself had CFS (this affected my immune system) many years ago and any cough, cold or virus I catch affects me for weeks if not months if I get ill. This is why we all must take care, for others not just ourselves.
Rant away Kelvin, I feel your pain.
Thank you morecashthandash.
Actually, can’t resist a rant…
Two stories that, when combined, anyone capable of joined up governance should have acted on…
https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/october-half-term-traffic-warning-6092710
Devon, Cornwall and Dorset have been told to expect an "autumn rush" on the roads in the coming days as Brits plan a half-term getaway.
A survey conducted by the RAC revealed that both Dorset and Cornwall have been named as their destination of choice for a final break away before the start of winter.
https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/royal-cornwall-hospital-announces-critical-6095323
Speaking on behalf of the NHS in Cornwall, Royal Cornwall Hospitals Trust (RCHT) medical director Dr Allister Grant said: “There is unprecedented demand on health and care services in Cornwall, more so this week than at any point during the pandemic. As a result, we have escalated our operational level from OPEL4 to an internal critical incident.
Thank you bunnyhop. Hope you’re okay through this winter. Yes, fearing this might drag on more for her more than is normal for others (which for some of my friends has been long/bad enough). We’re off for PCR tests (they want me to go as well). I don’t think they are of any real value to us personally at this point, but they might be useful if they are sequencing to see what’s happening with variants.
I personally think this is a plain stupid idea but given I’ll have to go is it fair to demand full social distancing occurs throughout the 2 days? Or is that no longer a thing in England?
We had a one day team meeting last month. Being civil service it was risk assessed to death, but 12 of us in a big meeting room, sat 2 metres apart like some weird exam hall flashback, full length windows open for ventilation, masks on when not seated at your desk. Went well, if a little chilly, another one this week.
I'm the only one with school age kids, and I asked the team to let me know if they had an issue with me being there as it was Covid central at daughters school - a lot of her friends had it but she has never tested positive.
One colleague messaged me privately to say she is undergoing investigations for a lung issue so would appreciate me being strict with distancing, but otherwise pretty relaxed and great to be in the office for the first time in 18 months.
Having read this that kelvin posted (hope things start to get better soon BTW!) I messaged my friend who woks in the NHS down there to see how bad it was. I sent her the link to this story:
Speaking on behalf of the NHS in Cornwall, Royal Cornwall Hospitals Trust (RCHT) medical director Dr Allister Grant said: “There is unprecedented demand on health and care services in Cornwall, more so this week than at any point during the pandemic. As a result, we have escalated our operational level from OPEL4 to an internal critical incident.
She replied with this:
It's awful. They had to declare a critical incident the other day (not the first time either). Also heard from paramedics that they can't respond to Cat 1 calls - as they are stuck at Treliske unable to offload patients - having to look after them in the back of an ambulance, as there is literally no beds! As a result people are dying of life threatening emergencies as very limited number of ambulances available on over crowded roads. That was without school hols, so go figure. The news isn't telling you that! Cornwall is one of the worst places in the UK to get seriously ill in atm, as likely help won't come, or will come too late. It's really, really shit. Kind of wish I wasn't nurse sometimes. Nurses/staff are leaving in droves. It's even worse for those left, as we're running way over capacity with half staff! And the government keep kicking us in the nuts. Not even the public appreciate it. It's tough. And Boris keeps announcing how much worse they expect it to get this winter. How can it get any worse? People are dying! What's worse than that?
So if you're thinking that a final break down Cornwall is a good idea please don't. They're getting now what the rest of the country will get in a few weeks.
This ^^^ is very much part of the problem, the public not actually knowing what goes on.
There are people out there who know of nobody who has caught this virus, let alone what the hospital staff and carers are going through.
I just wish the government would threaten 'no Christmas' if we and they don't/won't get their act together.
Thanks Kelvin. Yes because of underlying conditions which always affect my chest, I have to be careful and I do not want to end up taking a bed away from someone in hospital because I couldn't be bothered wearing a mask, social distancing, washing hands properly and having ventilation in any indoor space. It's really not asking for the moon on a stick.
Been told I need to travel to Sheffield for a team get to gather In a few weeks, involving sitting in a room for 2 days solid with a group of people whom all have school aged kids
Get some FFP2 masks to use if you’re not happy with the setup ..?
We had an away day yesterday everyone took an lft on the morning b4 we went
Agree they're not 100% but all double vaxed.
So e school has quite a few cases at the moment, 2 hospitals we work with are all struggling to carry out cancer surgeries due to ITU bed shortage, between them they cover a huge amount of London, I'm surprised it's not been in the news more
It does feel like it could go quite bad this winter
Hopefully there's more immunity out there than it seems
My 11yr old has been off school all week with covid and having to help him with his lessons it’s been pretty much impossible to isolate from him.
So I’ve been breathing in his covidy breath all week but have tested negative on LFT each day, I have felt a bit tired and headachy at times but assume this is my immune system firing up.
I’m wondering if this exposure is enough to act as a booster to the vaccine I had 4 months ago, or do you actually need to get ill to boost your immunity?
Seems like Boris’s herd non-immunity mass infection policy is working very well in Calderdale. In the last month pretty much all my mates have had it, all my kids mates have had it, and tonight my 14 year old (who isn’t vaccinated) just failed a LFT. I’ve had a flu/cold bug for the past 3 weeks so either I’ve already had it (LFT tests disagree) or I’m in for some more fun in the next fortnight.
I’m confused, isn’t the advice, if you have symptoms, which is basically you feel ill, AFAIK, you go and get a PCR test?
Official advice to take a PCR is still based on the 3 original symptoms… temp, cough, smell/taste.
Our local health board (grampian) sent out a letter via schools recently recommending PCRs for an expanded list of symptoms… but then sent another letter a couple of weeks later retracting that advice 🤷♂️
Just popping in after lurking since day 1 of this thread (it's been great and thanks for everyone's input... Kept me sane). My turn to dip in as my whole family is currently in isolation (4 of us) after all testing positive.
Both my wife and I double jabbed (4 months ago each). Eldest gave it to us as a present from school (11 year old). My wife had it badly 2 months ago (confirmed pcr) and now again another confirmed pcr (did not think it was possible to get it twice so close together?)
I have been rough for a week, all usual mix of commonly reported symptoms etc. Grateful for vaccine as could have been so much worse. Wife just had sniffles and my two kids just bad colds luckily
Lots of my colleagues have had it also, same age bracket as me (40 ish) and all double jabbed. So from my perspective I don't think the vaccine is that good at preventing infection but most importantly keeps people from getting really sick - is this now the general thinking from the wider audience?
When I tested positive last week in advance of my wife, who is a school TA, she was told as double jabbed she could go into school no problem (wife was last of the 3 of us to test positive). The LFT on the day was negative, but she went for a walk in pcr in the morning and called in sick. Lucky she did as the test came back positive!
It's no wonder its exploding if she was still expected to go to work... With 3 confirmed cases of covid in the house
I’m wondering if this exposure is enough to act as a booster to the vaccine I had 4 months ago, or do you actually need to get ill to boost your immunity?
If you have caught it then your immune system will have been boosted
(double) Vaccination + infection produces the longest lasting immunity.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03696-9
Its possible that your vaccination is keeping any symptoms to a minimum & you have low levels of virus that aren't being detected by lft, a PCR might confirm
So how many people are insisting on aspiration when they have their vaccine/booster shots?
Especially after watching the Kyle Warner video.
There's been a few reports, covered by John Campbell on YT, showing the nasty effects of injecting the vaccine accidently into a blood vessel - particularly for heart problems - pericarditis and myocarditis.
I've downloaded a document "UK Guidance on Best Practice in Vaccine Administration", endorsed by the RCN and RCGP, that says aspiration may be performed to ensure safe application.
But I've seen reports of people requesting aspiration, which takes and extra 10 seconds or so, and it causing much disruption and even refusal.
The chances of hitting a blood vessel might be very low (much better than winning the lottery though) but I'd rather not be subject to that risk considering the consequnces that are becoming apparent - not from the vaccine but from errors administering it.
The following shows the effect in mice - there is not going to be a similar report of humans as it would be unethical to deliberately inject the vaccine into someones blood vessels.
Intravenous Injection of Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) mRNA Vaccine Can Induce Acute Myopericarditis in Mouse Model - https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciab707/6353927
Inadvertant intravenous injections -
HKU study warns against accidental vaccination into veins - https://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking-news/section/4/179175/HKU-study-warns-against-accidental-vaccination-into-veins
These next two just link mRNA vaccines to myocarditus - no mention of aspiration.
Myocarditis With COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines - https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.056135
Myocarditis after Covid-19 Vaccination in a Large Health Care Organization - https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110737
If you have caught it then your immune system will have been boosted
(double) Vaccination + infection produces the longest lasting immunity.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03696-9Its possible that your vaccination is keeping any symptoms to a minimum & you have low levels of virus that aren’t being detected by lft, a PCR might confirm
Undoubtedly I will have breathed in thousands of covid particles over the week - so I guess technically infected, I was wondering about the scenario where my immunity/antibodies killed the virus I inhaled before it had the opportunity to replicate in any significant numbers, so I would be negative on PCR/LFT. I’m basically curious if that level of exposure is enough to boost your immunity or whether you need a full blown infection.
So how many people are insisting on aspiration when they have their vaccine/booster shots?
None of us, because we’re having our shots in the normal place. Any questions, ask your own GP.
in the normal place ? What does that mean - you can accidently hit a blood vessel from the normal site of injection - that's the point.
And the other point is that many practitioners are insisting that aspiration isn't necesary when these reports are suggesting that it is. The risk might be low but the consequences can be severe - all for the desire to save 10 seconds or so during the application.
Been told I need to travel to Sheffield for a team get to gather In a few weeks, involving sitting in a room for 2 days solid with a group of people whom all have school aged kids
I personally think this is a plain stupid idea but given I’ll have to go is it fair to demand full social distancing occurs throughout the 2 days? Or is that no longer a thing in England?
Mrs Binners had a similar thing a couple of weeks ago. She refused to go for the same reasons as you. The rest of the team travelled from all over the country to the venue and had a get together for 2 days. The following week just about every single person there tested positive for Covid. Some were ill, some weren't but you ended up with virtually a whole company self-isolating.
So you're absolutely right. It is indeed a completely stupid idea. But if you look at the way most people are carrying on and the 'get back to the office, you slackers' message coming from government, stupidity seems to be par for the course.
I've just ordered a job lot of face masks. I've not stopped wearing them when I'm indoors with other people.
It also looks like having hailed the vaccine rollout as 'their' success, they're now disowning the booster jab programme, as by all accounts it's a shambles
I expect we'll be back to some more restrictions - too little, too late, as per - by the end of the week
Not if you’re going into the upper arm muscle with the right technique. We have people here who have been part of the vaccination rollout, and had the training, so I’ll leave it to them to explain in full Bull. Any personal doubts, speak to you GP before going for your shots, rather than argue with the vaccination teams on the day. If you stand there asking them to change their procedures because of something you read on the internet about giving shots to mice in their thighs, they probably won’t want to know. If you have concerns, your GP will sort you out.
All the vaccine shots are in the upper arm, but there have now been many cases of myocarditis and a few deaths, all from just not doing the aspiration it seems.
Apiration used to be the recommended practice, for some reason it has been stopped. It is also listed in the RCN guide I downloaded as a way of ensuring that you are not injecting in to a blood vessel, which is still possible if you inject into the upper arm.
It seems the health profession have been suggesting that the consequences of accidental injection into the blood vessels are minor, and therefore aspiration is not needed. But it is becoming apparent that the consequences of injecting the mRNA vaccines in the blood vessels are not minor - ask Kyle for example.
Your "because of something you read on the internet" is a bit dismissive of the actual medical research I listed.
in the normal place ? What does that mean – you can accidently hit a blood vessel from the normal site of injection – that’s the point.
you seem awful confused on injection technique and anatomy
with the covid vaccine its a tiny needle and there are no blood vessels other than capillaries you can possibly hit so aspiration is not required as you cannot inject into a cappilairy
We used to use much bigger ( both longer and wider) needles for IM injections which could hit a more significant blood vessel hence aspiration was used as with some medications putting the dose into the vein could cause embolisms or too rapid rise in blood concentrations.
Medical practice changes with changes in techniques and with research
so if you are giving a deep IM injection ( which is not the covid vaccine ) which is either an oily suspension, a large volume or something like morphine where rapid blood level rise is dangerous you drawback to check you have not hit a significant blood vessel
If you are giving a shallow Im injection into an area where no major blood vessels are you do not.
I watched the first bit of your youtube link - which BTW is of course not proper research - guess what - he is using a green needle - about 5x the width of a covid vaccine needed and 4 times the length
Aspiration of course also increases pain and muscle damage as as its very hard to do without moving the needle around
Your “because of something you read on the internet” is a bit dismissive of the actual medical research I listed.
Not dismissive of the original research. Dismissive of people interpreting and using it to tell the vaccinating staff to deviate from their training and instructions. As per your original question, none of us are going to be telling those giving us our jabs to change what they are doing. Speak to your GP if you have concerns, don’t walk into a vaccination centre trying to get them to change their procedures based on your “internet research”.
based on your “internet research”.
and your lack of undwerstanding of anatomy and proceedure
So from my perspective I don’t think the vaccine is that good at preventing infection but most importantly keeps people from getting really sick – is this now the general thinking from the wider audience?
Precisely this. The vaccine is doing relatively little for transmission. I noted this when delta first emerged in Israel. It spread at the same rate in a vaccinated population as alpha did in an unvaccinated. Hope your family are back feeling better soon and @kelvin too.
Now the joyous news. Having looked across countries and analysed the new (Friday) PHE data on delta plus spread in countries, I think there is a reasonably clear pattern.
U.K. had high cases of delta, that has generated a mutant by immune selection. This is slightly more spreadable and the spread is not contained by vaccination (morbidity looks like it might be) other countries have also seen significant spread of this strain (Germany and Denmark) and some others are just starting to do so (Spain, France and Italy). We are of course, leading the charge. The new strain will reach parity by end of December and replace by February based on current trends.
It will be interesting to see how the vaccines hold up. The reason being that the new strain VOC-21-OCT-01 has the E484 mutation. If that rings a bell, it is because E484K was the South African strain’s immune escape epitope. AZ vaccine did not perform well against this mutation. Also it confers absolute resistance to the antibody bamlanivimab.
Interesting times ahead…
[tl:dr]. High cases of delta in the U.K. has most likely selected a modestly fitter escape mutant. That’s kept cases high here but not in the rest of Europe. It has now spread, and they will be catching us up in the coming months. Get a booster if you are eligible.
BTW I haven’t followed the IM injection debate, but Pfizer is 0.25 mL and I think AZ is 0.5mL. Flu is also 0.5mL. This is a tiny injection. We are giving a LOT more than this for antibody delivery, typically 4mL injections are not unknown. There are guidances for volumes not each muscle. Deltoid is 2-2.5mL, thigh and gluteal (bottom) up to about 5mL.
Thanks TiRed. PCRs came back negative this morning, but other half still getting positive results from LFTs. We volunteered for antigen tests… will be interesting what they say when we get to that point.
The reason being that the new strain VOC-21-OCT-01 has the E484 mutation.
Didn’t see this in any of the news coverage. TiRed bringing us the more interesting information yet again! Someone give him a STW gong…
they will be catching us up in the coming months
Surely that will depend to some degree on whether they go for a “vaccine only” or “vaccine plus” approach over the winter?
Also it confers absolute resistance to the antibody bamlanivimab
Can we play this again…?
https://twitter.com/fallontonight/status/1326384724235972611?s=21
Thanks TiRed,
Does the booster vaccine have to be from the same company as the first two vaccines taken?
I had the AZ shots, given that it is reportedly less effective than other vaccines would it be ok/possible to get another version for a booster shot?
Yeah, very interesting. The Pfizer booster campaign starting to look even more important.
On a side-note, I think the Guardian had a short report about the South West situation suggesting that the recent upsurge in cases may not be variant-driven, but could possibly be linked to the PCR problems at that lab - lot of false negatives getting returned, meaning a lot of infectious people sent out with a clean bill of health to mix with others.
I watched the first bit of your youtube link – which BTW is of course not proper research – guess what – he is using a green needle – about 5x the width of a covid vaccine needed and 4 times the length
he says immediately after picking up the needle that the needle used for the vaccine is not as big as this...
and your lack of undwerstanding of anatomy and proceedure
It was my understanding that there must be blood vessels in the arm muscles - would your arm muscles not wither and die without a blood supply ??
I was assuming that Dr John Campbell, a Senior Lecturer in Nursing studies at the University of Cumbria and an ex clinical nurse, might have that understanding and if he was concerned then it might be a valid concern.
And that Dr. Can Li, Dr. Anna Zhang and Professor Yuen Kwok-Yung, and their team, at the University of Hong Kong, might have some understanding also.
lot of false negatives getting returned
My understanding is that the advice is now that a positive LFT should be treated as overriding a negative PCR because of that. But that change hasn’t really been communicated to the public (or employers) has it? Perhaps Javid could have mentioned it in his coronavirus briefing. Or anything useful at all.
If you say that injecting into a blood vessel can't happen or that the consequences of it are negligable then you are attributing the myocarditis/pericarditis to the vaccine, which therefore gives ammunition to the anti-vaxxers. (And there has been suggestion that the blood clot issues were similairly caused).
If you are saying that injection into the blood vessels is possible and that the simple act of aspiration removes that risk, then that reduces the ammunition to the anti-vaxxers.
This is why people are researching into it.
How many people have ever bought a lottery ticket?
According to the team at the Uni of HK, the chances of hitting a blood vessel during vaccine administration are nearly 4 times greater than winning the lottery.
Minimal maybe, but the consequences for someone who is active are great - watch the Kyle video for example.
5000 cases in that group he mentions and several suicides.
And he was initially dismissed as having psychological issues for reporting that his heart rate was abnormal, basically because he monitors it closely being an ex top level athlete. When he eventually got past them the specialist basically said he got to them just in time...
Once more
The covid vaccine is given with a tiny needle that cannot go deep enough to hit a major blood vessel - only capillaries. You cannot do an IV injection inadvertently using a 7mm fine needle into the deltoid. Hit a cappiliary and it would just collapse if you tried to inject into it
You also need to understand that youtube videos are not data.
Your link to Dr John Campbell has amongst its first comments a very good explanation of why he is talking balderdash
I know nowt about myocarditis etc - but I have some basic understanding of anatomy. Not all blood vessels are equal
If you say that injecting into a blood vessel can’t happen or that the consequences of it are negligable then you are attributing the myocarditis/pericarditis to the vaccine, which therefore gives ammunition to the anti-vaxxers.
The small risks have always been attributed to the vaccine rather than the delivery technique?
But you are spot on with the lottery ticket analogy - the risks of a serious adverse reaction are in a similar level to a big lotto win. But then I buy tickets more for the wider societal benefits that the lottery fund provides, in the same way that having the vaccine helps others as much as me, by making the chance of me being very ill, very small.
Well, office policy at Singletrack caught my son’s covid before he showed any symptoms! School was closed for a training day so he was going to come in with me - and anyone going into the office has to do a lateral flow test before they head in. Lo and behold, a positive test for him! He had the merest hint of a snotty nose (doing the test was a bit gross) but that was it. By the afternoon he was tired and achy, and he’s especially complaining that it hurts to move his eyes. But still, really really mild symptoms. Which I’m glad of, obviously, but on any other day I’d definitely have sent him off to school as usual. Whoever he caught it off quite likely doesn’t even know they had it.
