Poopscoop - Can you get hold of an oximeter to keep an eye on your mother's oxygen levels and pulse rate?
oldagedpredator - good luck. Hope you have few or no side effects.
No side effects so far, just a strong urge to seek out the nearest 5G mast and await instructions 😉
Hoping to get the vaccine soon...
Fingers crossed.
Vaccine booked for my wife and I on Wednesday am. Honestly, I'm feeling quite emotional about it.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but surely 4th 5th and 6th and so on waves are inevitable. And have been since eradication stopped being an option.
This will be another SEASONAL coronavirus, but what we are doing at the moment is beating it down onto that seasonal pattern. Seasonal viruses are driven by forcing of behaviour, weather and IMMUNITY levels. Since immunity levels were nil we are in an epidemic situation. Once immunity, even waning immunity is conferred, then endemic cycles will continue, with annual winter outbreaks, like RSV, influenza, rhinovirus...
it just takes a while. But 800k vaccinations in one day. When did we have that many infections in one day? (phew!)
Christina Pagel says it’s already been here and it is the Kent variety. We washed it up on their shores.
Given that there was no way to keep the Kent variant from crossing the channel, the current situation in the EU was inevitable. Weirdly, if you were going to choose a new dominant variant, the Kent version may be the lesser of a few evils. It is more transmissible, and likely more dangerous, but it is covered by vaccination. Other more transmissible variants such as Brazil, which presumably is present in Portugal and beyond, could be better able to evade vaccines. Those are the ones we don't want racing into France and washing back to us.
It isn't clear whether the Brazil variants can outcompete Kent in an unvaccinated population. But hopefully they can't, or at least not decisively.
It is more transmissible, and likely more dangerous, but it is covered by vaccination.
Well, that's great. Having sent them the much more transmissible and possibly more dangerous variant, I'm sure we'll start shipping them huge numbers of vaccines to help deal with it ASAP.
Bunnyhop
Free Member
Poopscoop – Can you get hold of an oximeter to keep an eye on your mother’s oxygen levels and pulse rate?
Yep, I bought one right back at the very start of the pandemic last Match after reading an article about blood O2 in the elderly going through the floor. It did prove very handy to have with the first jab.👍
Mrs Rock had her jab yesterday at our local Boots store. When we got there, there was a bit of a queue outside, of folk of all ages. I asked if they were queuing just to get in, but it turns out they were queuing for spare vaccines. And indeed, it was the case, as the vaccination session was coming to an end around tea time, they were preparing to call in those waiting.
Only slightly miffed as if I had had the reassurance, I would have jumped on one myself, instead I'm on Saturday morning, a little distance away. (I was waiting for the GP to confirm that my Clopidrogel was OK with the AZ, which it is, it turns out).
I'm not sure if there was some filtering going on thereafter as there was definitely some punters less than 50 in the queue.
Honestly, I’m feeling quite emotional about it.
I had a bit of a moment after I'd had the jab. Just felt as if a weight had been lifted slightly, more upbeat. Did seem rather odd.
^^ Yes, sitting in the waiting room for the mandatory 15 mins and seeing all the huge effort the NHS was putting into this and also a weight lifted off my shoulders I too got a bit of dust in my eyes.
Well, that’s great. Having sent them the much more transmissible and possibly more dangerous variant, I’m sure we’ll start shipping them huge numbers of vaccines to help deal with it ASAP.
If we had an oversupply of vaccines over the next couple of months, that might be an option.
As for the idea that we 'sent' them a variant, new variants are popping up on a daily or weekly basis. It could just as easily have been Medoc as Medway. And if a variant is as transmissible as this one, no border which sees the daily movement of goods as much as the Channel is going to stop it. You would have hoped that our neighbours would have recognised this when the variant was first identified last year - they've had a lot more warning than we had, and a chance to witness its effects here this winter.
The European Commission has squandered months, first by interceding in the negotiations with AZ, then by actively undermining the safety and efficacy of the vaccine within an already sceptic population. If they do seize some of the supply earmarked for the UK, it will be spread very thin across its member states, and be little more than a political fig leaf.
If they do seize some of the supply earmarked for the UK, it will be spread very thin across its member states, and be little more than a political fig leaf.
Pfizer have already pointed out to the EU that the raw material for the Pfizer BioNtech vaccine's lipid coat is made by Croda here in the UK and they should tread carefully. I think that's probably all that's stopped them doing to us what they've already done to Australia.
That would be even pettier. It's one thing putting vaccine into French or German arms rather than UK ones - at least someone is getting vaccinated, which benefits everyone. Interrupting production of a vaccine entirely is a grade A dick move.
They already have millions of doses of AZ vaccine that their citizens don't seem to want after Macron etc rubbished it so it fails me why they want more.
its not just the EU
the political bun fight over the AZ vaccine has been a bad joke at the worst time, but the problem stems, in part, from early problems with AZs trial
Have we forgotten that, right from the start (if we are calling March 2020 the start), we introduced export controls* on PPE, intensive-care drugs, adrenaline, insulin, paracetamol, morphine and other essential stuff ourselves? There is definitely a framing and a focusing of any measures the EU, or a country in the EU, considers as "petty" and our own measures as "essential in unusual circumstances". We seem happy to let all the other major powers restrict export as they sit fit as well (USA, China & India jump to mind first... you know, those growing markets we're supposed to be turning towards). Silly old vindictive "EU"... calm sensible partners elsewhere... that's the message, and we're soaking it up willingly.
[ EDIT: I don't think these applied to EU countries 'till Jan of this year though... just as the nonsense the EU are considering as regards the UK probably wouldn't have been possible 'till this year either. ]
I think Penn and Teller sum up the vaccination argument quite well;
As for the idea that we ‘sent’ them a variant, new variants are popping up on a daily or weekly basis.
there is also a bit of double think with us "sending europe the kent strain" which is totally our/Boris's fault, and opening up boarders in the summer would see us "importing the SA or the brazil strain" which would also be our/Boris's fault.
It is petty, on both sides. Politics invariably is these days. The particular antipathy to and from Brussels is an inevitable hangover from four years of incredibly petty behaviour, mainly from us.
It's disappointing, as a believer in the European project, to see its flaws under this very particular pressure so obviously displayed, to the benefit of the Brexiteer loons.
I want to see everyone in our 'neighbourhood' vaccinated ASAP so we can get on with stuff, and without the procurement disaster within the EU, they would be well on their way.
I think Penn and Teller sum up the vaccination argument quite well;
That is ace.
there is also a bit of double think with us “sending europe the kent strain” which is totally our/Boris’s fault, and opening up boarders in the summer would see us “importing the SA or the brazil strain” which would also be our/Boris’s fault.
The bit that is our/Boris's fault is allowing continued high levels of prevalence of the virus over the second half of last year, which allowed the (a) concerning variant to occur and become wide spread, before we had the vaccinations in place. It actually getting to the rest of Europe is blame that can be shared entirely 50:50... you can't have travel corridors without both ends being kept open by those in control at either end. More should have done by destination countries to quarantine travellers from the UK on arrival. Likewise, yes I do blame the Brazil government for their "relaxed" approach to the virus last year, and the variant that has arisen and spread because of what they allowed to happen there. But I hold our government responsible for our response to that... if we were still allowing direct flights from Brazil without quarantining... I'd hope others would be up in arms as well... but the government has finally addressed that hole. They look to be far more on top of things in 2021 than they were in 2020, in many ways. So far.
Didn’t the original strain in Europe start in an Austrian Ski Chalet?
I think nearly all European countries (including the UK) can trace some of their first cases to Ischgl, yes. Six months later, a lot more was known though.
First we get shake their hands, then clap the NHS, then screw the nurses, now a remembrance silence for all the victims. This is now our body politic.
Really not sure about the shining your phone around from your doorstep at 8pm thing either. We've recently lost some more people locally. Will their families see the light waving thing as a fitting tribute, or trite? I think we'll put candles in the windows. That seems more sombre.
Have we forgotten that, right from the start (if we are calling March 2020 the start), we introduced export controls* on PPE, intensive-care drugs, adrenaline, insulin, paracetamol, morphine and other essential stuff ourselves?
I don't know the particulars of those controls but where companies forced to break contracts that had been agreed upon prior to the institution of said controls?
The main issue with the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine is that a great deal of the initial finance was from the UK gov which enabled production to begin in the first place. It's a vastly different situation to a generic drug, for example, which more or less unproblematically comes off a production line.
The EU are happy to implicitly (and wrongly) frame the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine as being like a generic drug, rather than as something difficult to produce (at least initially) where the buyer is exposed to the risk of the batch not meeting all expectations. It's absolutely reprehensible that after joining the party late, they want to dump their risk onto the UK which was more prudent in ordering early and giving AstraZeneca the finance to set up production. Time matters here not because there is a queue but because it allows problems in the production to be ironed out.
I don’t know the particulars of those controls but where companies forced to break contracts that had been agreed upon prior to the institution of said controls?
They superseded any commercial concerns. Otherwise, they would be entirely ineffective. Was it because we were “late” to source enough PPE and drugs? As Brits, we don’t care, we just want the government to do whatever it takes to protect and help us. Others expect the same of their governments. They’ve seen the vaccine they funded and produced leaving for the UK for months now (BioNTech/Pfizer), kick starting our vaccine programme, and now want more accesses to the other main vaccine in use. Yes, that is political not contractual.
They’ve seen the vaccine they funded and produced leaving for the UK for months now (BioNTech/Pfizer), kick starting our vaccine programme, and now want more accesses to the other main vaccine in use. Yes, that is political not contractual.
They didn't fund and order those particular batches though. So in effect, they are looking to off-load their risk onto the UK. Starting up new production, new batches, etc., comes with a risk. It's a kind of piracy to commandeer UK bound vaccines.
The German government funded the development of the first vaccine we rolled out, based on data provided by China. We hopped on the back of that and benefited. Vaccine (all pharma) development is international. We need to keep it so, it will be able to respond better to supply/demand issue more quickly and successfully. “National” interests put that it risk. We need to remember that it isn’t just about what is done by the EU, but also us, India, USA etc. We have a media narrative that is very focused on the part of this mess the EU and its member states are responsible for, pretending we are blame free, and the bigger powers aren’t also putting their internal politics first short term (probably to the detriment of all longer term, including their own citizens).
I mean… “piracy”… you’ve been sucked in fully.
I'm specifically talking about the Oxford vaccine which seems to be 90% of the issue. IIRC the UK mostly funded this and put down a load of seed money so AstraZeneca could set up their production (bioreactors) for the UK bound vaccine. The EU then came in late, their initial batches had poor yield (as is a risk) and they feel entitled to take vaccines from the UK funded bioreactors which have had time to iron out problems. If AstraZeneca were making widgets it would be a different matter, but these vaccines are difficult to make and the buyer has to eat that risk not demand it be shared amongst all buyers especially when u came in late.
The European Investment Bank funded Biontechs start up use of the mRNA tech as well, and then specifically to help them run trials and test the vaccine last June
https://www.eib.org/en/stories/eu-financing-for-covid-19-vaccine
I’m specifically talking about the Oxford vaccine which seems to be 90% of the issue.
You can only talk about “our” vaccine and not “their” vaccine if you want. But the bigger picture is that we’ve benefitted from each other’s funding and production (and also that of USA, Brazil, India and elsewhere). This is all international. If we don’t loosen up in terms of exports, than the politic pressure in countries we import from will grow. Give and take is required from all sides. The over simplification that it is all down to the EU being “late” (ignoring that the first vaccine we put into use here was developed in Germany and produced in Belgium) is the meme our press want us to bite down hard on. But, as ever, there is always far more to it.
The German government funded the development of the first vaccine we rolled out, based on data provided by China. We hopped on the back of that and benefited. Vaccine (all pharma) development is international. We need to keep it so, it will be able to respond better to supply/demand issue more quickly and successfully. “National” interests put that it risk.
So what are u demanding exactly? That the UK not be allowed to benefit from prudently ordering early so that bioreactor problems could be ironed out?
I’m not demanding anything. I do think our government’s attempts to stand back and say that it’s between Az and its other partners to sort out looked at first as if it was trying to keep the politics out of the situation, but now looks like they are just unwilling to help. And we could well still need reciprocal help again from others later on. If we rely on our pre-orders, but a new variant defeating vaccine arrives from a company outside that portfolio, based in a country we have washed our hands of during this first vaccine roll out, how will our request for help be heard? We need to increase our cooperation with other countries (and not just the EU). We started of well with this early in the pandemic, but from the outside we now look a bit “I’m all right Jack”, looking to blame rather than help our partners who are further behind with their rollout. Even the USA are looking better than us (and the EU) on this now, and that rarely happens.
There is a difference between suggesting that the UK Gov give up some vaccine for sake of diplomacy and suggesting that the EU has every right to seize whatever they like.
If we don’t do the first, they may do the second. Sovereign countries and all that. They control what crosses their borders. It would be a self defeating thing for them to do, but never underestimate the internal political pressure to do something stupid to “take back control”, reducing international cooperation and trade.
Could you imagine the outrage from the brexiteers if the situation were reversed!
Meanwhile reports that AZ have a much bigger stock of doses in Holland than previously stated
Actually in Italy for bottling. Produced in Holland originally. Just reading that:
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1374424828086644743?s=21
(machine translation):
The more weeks go by, the more the "AstraZeneca scandal" grows. According to our information, about 30 million doses are stored in Italy. A stock that the EU and Great Britain are fighting for.
On December 8, Halix signed a new agreement with AstraZeneca to produce the active substance of the vaccine on a large scale. To this end, Halix then undertook to increase the capacity of two of its production lines. Problem, a month later, when the European Medicines Agency (EMA) gave the green light for the marketing of the Anglo-Swedish vaccine, Halix disappeared from the list of subcontractors.
For good reason, the EMA has never received all the documents detailing the scientific data necessary for the certification of the Dutch site. "And it's not for lack of having multiplied requests," it is fulminated on the side of the cabinet of Thierry Breton, the European Commissioner for the Internal Market, responsible for monitoring the production of Covid vaccines, who had to resolve to remove it from the list. A factory that, according to information collected by L'Express, has nevertheless produced the equivalent of four to five million doses per month since last September. Doses that would then have been sent for the "fill & finish" (the bottled), to the Italian site of Anagni, owned by the American group Catalent. It is therefore more than 30 million vaccines that are dormant on the Rome side, at the very moment when Europe needs them most. Asked about this administrative confusion, the management of Astrazeneca did not want to answer our questions, simply repeating that this Dutch factory had not indeed received EMA certification but that "the file was ongoing".
On the European side, we wonder. Didn't the pharmaceutical group knowingly slow down the certification of its Dutch subcontractor, to ensure that this "war treasure" can only be pre-empted by Great Britain? As a result, Brussels threatens to block all exports of vaccines produced in Europe to the United Kingdom (9.1 million doses have already been exported since 30 January to London, mainly Pfizer vaccines), if the EU does not first receive the deliveries provided for in its contract with AstraZeneca. Under pressure, while Great Britain is due to inoculate the second dose of the vaccine in the coming weeks, Boris Johnson says he is now ready to share the stock of AstraZeneca with the EU. The health crisis is now coupled with a diplomatic crisis. And the standoff is just beginning.
Hopefully we’ll see some moves to get this sorted fast.
I still claim that the EU demanding its quota first - regardless of the low initial bioreactor yields - is unreasonable; problems in early production should be allowed for.
Like I said, nothing but piracy dressed up in the language of contractual obligation.
If you were Az looking to pull a fast one on the EU by delaying certification of a plant in Holland, diverting production from that plant to the UK and given that the EU has been talking about banning exports for some time would you
- Allow 30 million doses to get stockpiled at a fill & finish facility in Italy, far from the UK over a period of 6 months
- Start shifting the stuff across the channel and into the UK asap on the assumption that you're going to get spotted sooner or later and moving 'some' that way is better than 'none'
If it's a ploy by Az to get more vaccine to the UK, it seems a pretty stupid one.
I guess the problem is that the 6 month old vaccine is now pretty much at its expiry date. Politically is it better for the EU to let it expire and be thrown away while they sort the paperwork out than have it be sent to the UK (or Australia I guess given the doses they refused to send there also came from Italy)
The EU ordered late and the production allocated to them had poor yields which isn't unusual for the first batch or two.
Anything else is just the EU trying to divert attention away from its own failure to order in a timely manner.
Im not sure AZ would actually do that, they know it would cause a huge furore, I suspect the french paper article is wrong about the numbers, especially as theyve been scaling up
Theres no way it would be 30 million doses
Ta Mefty.
It is is highly unlikely that much light will be shed by any of the so called twitter experts or journalists on this issue. Few seem to have any eye for legal detail, I am not sure I have seen any of them refer to the most fundamental difference between the two contracts concluded with the AZ group bythe UK and the EU, which is that they have been concluded with different entities. Underlying those contracts will be a clear contractual chain with the various contract manufacturers establishing the supply chains established to service the contracts by the relevant entities.