Morning folks - Mother's Day. Do you really want to spend it in the Rabbit Hole?
Take care, be kind.
Good luck everyone, hope to see you all on the other side.
Conspiracy theory - this was started by cats.
Bonuses of virus: Humans stay inside - more opportunities to get biscuits and sit on their warm flesh. Once the lock down comes, cats will roam the streets free of cars and pesky dogs. Reduced human activity will increase cat prey activity so more mice, birds and rabbits to catch.
Extra bonus - more toilet paper around the house to shred into tiny pieces.
He did it:
Ha ha ha, very good.
My 76 old Father and wicked step-mother made it home last night from Egypt (phew). I think they shut the airport after they left.
To stop her going back? Is she that bad?
Stay safe. Could we get the message out there for Low Risk households to do in-store shops which frees up the delivery slots for the High Risk households (elderly and vulnerable with underlying conditions) who have been instructed to stay at home for the duration of the outbreak. They will be forced into the stores which is putting them at risk.
Low Risk households
Anyone who thinks they are in a low risk household is kidding themselves. Do the sums: one "low risk household" risks losing as many years of life as many high risk households and the damage to society will be much greater. An 80 year old risks losing not a lot and a 40 year old risks losing 40 years + not a lot. "Low risk" is itself a misnomer given French experience.
Do the best for you and yours being as pragmatic as possible.
Go out when there's nothing left to eat and you've failled to get delivered by every service available. And not before.
Anyone who thinks they are in a low risk household is kidding themselves
Depends on what context of risk you put to it.
Personally I count a fit and healthy family of four low risk of death or complications if one member contracts covid-19, and a 70+ year old diabetic ex smoker living on there own high risk of death.
In addition the 70+ year old has more chance of adding blocking the hospitals, where as the family of four are less likely to be in that category. Which is the entire point of isolating people.
Ok, so the family have 'more to loose', but the chance for that happening is much smaller.
My thinking is that if Boris doesn't impose a full shut down by Monday, we will be where Italy is now within a week.
^^ I don't think that was aimed at you. I think it was a general point that it isn't just the elderly that we need to show concern for.
Also interesting and good simple reading for those of the bikebuoy hard of thinking types:
People not using delivery services because it might possibly mean someone else can't get a rapid delivery is just not a sensible choice. It puts more people in shops and people in shops is what's spreading the virus amongst other contacts. The best solution for society is less people shopping whatever their age.
Selflessness which involves putting yourself at risk when you are not in a critical job is just adding to the problem. If you can help an old person directly without putting them at risk or increasing your own risk then fine help. Not using Tesco direct and going into the store yourself because it might just eventually mean an old persons order arrives a day later is not pragmatic and adds to the problem.
There's a real problem with UK media attitudes and it's going to make Britain one of the worst affected areas.
I'm following this in three places: First and foremost France "en directe", in Germany because junior lives there and I like German TV, and finally the UK where people just don't seem to have grasped the most important thing they need to do for themselves and everyone else is to cut themselves off from the world until there's nothing left to eat at home and then get more to eat with the least contact possible.
That's what every medical professional on Euro media is telling you to do, no if buts or maybes, this is not a holiday, this is not life as normal.
that is not true and offensive, reported.
I don’t think it’s directed at you.
There seem to be many here who support a lockdown. Petition here: https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/301397
Sign it!
I can imagine there was a difficulty in making the decision to order a country into Lockdown back in the early days - but now, with everything we know, surely it's a no brainer?
Thanks for the reply, Drac, so long as that's clear to all.
ED 3 week wait for delivery slots here in Hampshire
Go out when there’s nothing left to eat and you’ve failled to get delivered by every service available. And not before.
Hampshire is the worst effected county in england . Supermarkets are desperate for casual workers to help stock shelves, clean and sweep up the shops and deliver goods to houses
I dont think hardly any one in the county holds enough food for a 3 week wait for Tesco / Chavsda to get round to dropping off your frostys
Supermarkets are desperate for casual workers to help stock shelves, clean and sweep up the shops and deliver goods to houses
So perhaps they should be paying bankers' wages to young single people living alone and charging prices that enable them to do that. Let's face it, people have nothing else to spend their money on at present and most people can afford it. For those who can't afford high prices the government needs to deploy the army (young fit, single and cut off cut off from the rest of society) to deliver those too poor to pay the higher prices - a tax declaration would be justification enough.
Edit: if Lidl offered junior and his flat mate 1000e a day to man a checkout they'd take it on the simple condition they got masks, gloves and a plexiglass screen. But they'd be even happier if they got to drive around Berlin on deserted roads dropping off parcels to OAPs.
Skeg in 'full of Brexity carry on regardless tosspots' shocker:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/21/disaster-waiting-to-happen-visitors-flock-to-skegness
Full lockdown midweek as people cannot be trusted.
Same as always, just like the class at school where there were always two or three morons who got everyone a detention. And thought they were clever doing it.
We’d run out of food before the next home delivery slot.
Perhaps I should have panic bought and stockpiled after all....
People have been panic buying freezers to store frozen goods , hence the abilty to strip the supermarket shelves bare in a few hours
The Army are being deployed soon, TA are on recall locally and the barracks near to us are going into ' work ' mode . Probably be rear gunners on toilet roll delivery trucks , or as you say be put to proper use distributing goods to those in need
Problem is you risk passing round the virus at the same time unless protocols are followed
The initial panic buyers lead to a problem fuelled by the sensationalist wing of the media. People start buying more than they need because it might not be there due to the panic buying and many such as medical workers can’t be at the shops when the deliveries arrive.
I suspect the buying of freezers is the ‘I’m going to sell stuff at a large profit on eBay brigade’. I’ve seen several reports of vans stopped by police with hundreds/ thousands of big rolls in.
Paying big wages in times of need is a great idea.
Hard to spend it when your dead though isn't it.
The protocol isn't hard: an A4 paper stapled to the parcel:
"Put this parcel in an unoccupied room then wash your hands. Do not touch the parcel again for 24h after which you can safely use the contents".
I mentioned aseptic technique in labs a few pages back, perhaps there should be government information ads on TV running every 10 minutes on aseptic technique and protecting yourslef, on radio too, and perhaps even pop-ups on the Net, perhaps STW could be called in to advise 😉
To stop her going back? Is she that bad?
ha ha ha I always address her Mother’s Day card as “the Wicked Stepmother”
Hard to spend it when your dead though isn’t it.
Hence the need to protect workers by organising delivery. Knock door with a stick and run. Junior is 22, has a driving license, has a .2% risk of death and was confident enough about his resistance to disease to get on the last flight to Berlin. Give him 1000e a day and appropriate protective equipment, he's your man.
Edukator next week.
and charging prices that enable them to do that. Let’s face it, people have nothing else to spend their money on at present and most people can afford it
Escalating food prices is definitely not something we need right now! In a time when people are losing their jobs, having to take unpaid leave to look after dependants, there certainly are things to spend what little money they have on, namely housing, utilities and food, the same things they always had to spend their money on, not everyone has ‘spare’ money at the end of the month after all their bills are paid. Despite the governments help package there will still be an awful lot of people in severe financial difficulty right now and only getting worse as time goes on, lets not make it worse.
And ‘most’ people certainly can’t afford their food bill to go up a significant amount, maybe in middle class fantasy land where ‘most’ is most of your peers, but not most as in the general Population.
Stable supply and sensible buying is what’s needed, enforced if necessary (which it seems like it will be).
Although not wanting to bury my head in the sand, I'm leaving this thread now. Yes we all have issues to recognise and need to help each other but its tone is far too overwhelmingly negative for me. I need to focus on being positive for my family.
Good luck all, stay sensible.
Apparently the Tescos boss got £4.9 million in 2017. Pay a monthly coronavirus bonus to all frontline staff with 100% attendance of £1000 to 100 000 employees (out of 450 000 total) and you have a cost of 100 million or about 7% of turnover. Increase the cost of all goods by 7% to compensate.
Use deliveries and you have less frontline staff to pay the bonus to.
Edit: Perhaps another education theme on TV needs to be education slots on hos to eat well and cheaply, my entirely judgemental view of what I saw Brimingham's poorest putting through the checkout says that they could eat a whole lot better whilst spending significant less.
Yep people posting pictures of empty shelves on FB, really got the ball rolling for panic buying.
Not sure you can buy enough food for 3 months lockdown.(but some people seem to have tried!)
I really like pot noodle but a week solid of em would be grim.
Actually before I go I'm going to re-post this :
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-cases/
Its more positive reading than the collective doom mongering of a few individuals in here.
Collective doom-mongering, where's that?
There are a dozen people on here posting up useful stuff you can act on (and you're making absolutely the right personal choices, Kryton, in going into confinement with Madame Kryton and the Kryton kids) and rubbishing the dangerous advice from the likes of a southern sailor.
Much more good than bad on STW.
This is an interesting take on panic buying. As I am not working away that's 4 breakfasts and lunches, and 3 dinners I am not eating in a hotel or restaurant.
https://twitter.com/Greg_Callus/status/1241507154030473216
I need some facts to get some perspective. Awake since 4 having morbid thoughts about my parents (82 and 78) and how a couple of weeks ago I was going to get them to show me where the funeral plans, wills and computer passwords were kept for a joke. Not feeling as funny now.
No we must be imagining the empty shelves it’s clearly not happened.
The Big picture numbers have never looked that bad tbh but it’s all about you or a family member being in the pile of dead and wilfully wandering around infecting people because you can’t be assed to stay out of spoons seems a tad selfish.
Front line workers won’t be having a ‘fun time’either.
A bit of doom mongering if it’s doing collective good isn’t A bad thing.
No we must be imagining the empty shelves it’s clearly not happened
Did you read the the whole thing or are you just going for the contrary view? I'm not sure.
Yes I read the whole thing.
My last job we suppplied Tesco, Ok bottles of beer but still a FMCG .Its all very fast turnaround. Order Monday for a Wednesday delivery in to Reading RDC . which is open 24/7 364 days a year. Its Vast , like 12 football pitches with hundreds of Artic trucks delivering and collceting product The shops get multiple deliveries a day and the stock pretty much is either shelved or stored out on the shop floor. There isnt a huge amount of stock waiting anywhere, except the manufaturers who have to guess what Tesco want and therefore carry stock as there are fines for missing deliveries and a points deduction system whereby contracts are evaluated on performance
My box of ice cream might be no good if I have left it untouched for 24hrs on my doorstep.
A wipe over with Chlorinated Caustic and I am good to go , but then I have access to PAA and NAOH at work, and have done sterile beer filtration and have spent my whole life killing bugs
Used to do sterile filtration into inerted SS tanks flushed with FF Nitrogen via a .2microm filter , integrity checked with steam purge downstream. Then beer 3 stage filtered down to .45micrmon via an absolute membrane cartridge filter, again integrity checked and steamed
My box of ice cream might be no good if I have left it untouched for 24hrs on my doorstep.
Well order yoghurt or cheese instead and no-one has suggested leaving it on your doorstep. UHT milk might be a better idea if you realy feel the need for a milk product. Adapt.
We've got a Leclerc Drive order programmed for when we run out and we've secifically avoided things that won't survive hanging around. The fresh fish industry in France has stopped dead, boats in port, no buyers.
I don't know whether to keep posting facts now as they are indeed harbringing of doom. The north of Italy is now registering a 9% mortality rate in detected cases. London is on almost exactly the same mortality curve per time period and is both way more dense in population and with way less clamp down on people's movements. We are all probably going through different coping measures at the current time and turning off the news isn't a terrible idea for periods as long as you're following best advice. My only aim here is to get people to take this more seriously than they could have imagined a few weeks ago so we can try and at least partly mitigate the deaths of our loved ones. Keep your chin up everyone.
If we follow Italy, how long before a total lockdown?
Those of you who are off work how much have you reduced your contact? My thoughts are that if you give someone a day off in this country they instantly head to Ikea or a shopping centre.
Those of you that are taking all the precautions is all your good work undone as soon as you step inside a supermarket and are exposed to those people who headed to Ikea?
Not sure of the provenance or veracity of this shot.
I'm sure in the interests of accuracy he'll be calling 'Spanish Flu' American Flu, to remind us of its origin. Gonna be confusing though, as he'll also have to refer to 'Swine Flu' as American Flu.
Edit: the Leclerc Drive pre-programmed order has failed at the first hurdle, they're not taking orders for things not in stock now even if there's a good chance they'll be in stock in the future (banaba boats are still on their way form the Caribean and local market gardeners are still growing). We'll see how it goes but I'm not doing anything while there's still stuff to eat in the house.
The herd immunity thing was always insane, 80% of the herd with a 1-4% fatality rate means 1/2 million to 2.5 million deaths
I still can't get my head round the fact that this seemed to be government policy for a few weeks
https://twitter.com/Okwonga/status/1241650850688372737?s=19
Yeah there seems to be a few places like that Zilog.
Local to me. The mind boggles. Massive crowds up Snowdon too apparently! What is the solution except Police/army enforced lockdown? Crazy.
Looks photoshopped to me, Whitestone, no cmaera has a depth of field that limited in those light conditions. "Chinese" is too clear and bold compared to the rest of the document.
Pleas stop with fake news. If you’re not sure if it’s true don’t post.
Looking on bbc website yesterday and most references to no of deaths seemed to split UK by country. An attempt to disguise the total?
good article on how to keep kids occupied, how to broach isolation with them, etc.
Particularly teenagers who feel indestructable at this age, something to do with the brain development that means they can't assimilate long term risks.
Looking on bbc website yesterday and most references to no of deaths seemed to split UK by country. An attempt to disguise the total?
Or the article you read was about how it is effecting different counties.
Full times article is here
Paywall but you can sign up & get some free articles
Good & scary reading
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000gj5f/our-world-wuhan-life-under-lockdown
Incredible. And we can't even organise toilet paper.
So perhaps they should be paying bankers’ wages to young single people living alone and charging prices that enable them to do that. Let’s face it, people have nothing else to spend their money on at present and most people can afford it. For those who can’t afford high prices the government needs to deploy the army (young fit, single and cut off cut off from the rest of society) to deliver those too poor to pay the higher prices – a tax declaration would be justification enough.
Apparently the Tescos boss got £4.9 million in 2017. Pay a monthly coronavirus bonus to all frontline staff with 100% attendance of £1000 to 100 000 employees (out of 450 000 total) and you have a cost of 100 million or about 7% of turnover. Increase the cost of all goods by 7% to compensate.
Great idea except not everyone works for a supermarket. Not everyone can afford an increase in price. Your plan is utter guff and frankly if you put such an idea in motion you would have riots or looting and far bigger problems to deal with.
And I wouldn't fancy eating anything from a box of refrigerated or frozen food 24 hours after it was put in some random room, would you?
Oh I see now you're suggesting people avoid those sorts of products. Great idea barring the fact frozen keeps longer so would last longer between deliveries.
I mean, I see your logic, somewhere, it's just not practical. Far easier to just restrict numbers inside supermarkets and enforce segregation. Better use of TA too.
Can anyone answer my questions above?
Pay a monthly coronavirus bonus to all frontline staff with 100% attendance of £1000 to 100 000 employees (out of 450 000 total)
Great so everyone stops self isolating when they get symptoms.
Also re the splitting of the countries to hide totals....ironically I spent about 20 minutes looking for the split totals I could only find the over all total on the beeb so I don't think that's a thing
Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore, which had their first confirmed cases before Europe, but acted early and fast, still have deaths in single digits and, at most, a few hundred cases.
Taiwan, helped perhaps by having an epidemiologist as vice-president, started tracing passengers from Wuhan as soon as China warned of a new type of pneumonia in the city last December, before Covid-19 was identified. Social distancing, ramped-up testing and contact-tracing followed soon after.
Most western countries did little, apart from developing a modest testing capacity – apparently gambling on the disease being contained elsewhere, as previous threatened epidemics, including Sars in 2002-03 and more recently Ebola and Mers, had been.
Yeah but we have the best possible science.
Hahah
Zippy, ad far as I’m aware Italy, Lombardy in particular are more or less only testing those arriving into hospitals.
We’ll be on full lockdown within days I reckon. Too many people don’t get it, walking the dog by myself this morning I saw two roadies drafting each other. Both of whom are not far off the highest risk age groups in terms of direct to them risks.
Local open water swimming group are still meeting several times a week.
At the minute it’s hard to see the end toll not being six figures in the UK. Even more so with the likes of Cummings making the calls.
I’ve retitled the thread as we don’t need conspiracies anymore.
If you can still read this the government made me chan...
And I wouldn’t fancy eating anything from a box of refrigerated or frozen food 24 hours after it was put in some random room, would you?
I'd like to inform you of the existance of tinned, dried, bottled, cartons. And that fresh vegetables keep for days in the English climate.
I'm not barring anything, I'm making suggestions, entirely realisitic suggestions that are far better than going into your local supermarket and contaminating/getting contaminated when with a bit of simple adaption you don't have to.
As for "utter guff". my plan is what's slowly happening in countries taking the virus seriously, but in some countries the population seems determined to ignore or refuse the simple solutions and find unjustifiable justifications for the stupid things they are doing that put themselves and others at risk.
Social distancing isn't working in the UK because it isn't being enforced. People are refusing to respect a call for voluntary measures and the price will be paid in lives.
If I go out without a very good reason I face a 135e fine, go out again and it rises to over 1000e, go out again and I risk ending up in a prison infested with the virus. All good.
re splitting of the countries to hide totals….ironically I spent about 20 minutes looking for the split totals I could only find the over all total
Maybe as inferred above it was an article about the regions. I was looking late last night after a family marathon Wii boxing session. Best way to deal with being cooped up with the kids!
If we do go in to lock down, how will that affect things like MOT. My wife is a nurse and the MOT will run out in early June but with garages shut the car cant have its MOT inspection, any thoughts on this?
Great so everyone stops self isolating when they get symptoms.
Bit of an obtuse pop at me that, Trailrat, I have never said anything about people stopping islolating when they get symptoms in any contribution to this thread, and trying to link the ideaa to what I've posted is a far stretch. Try contributing to this thread/forum for reasons other than taking a personal pop at me, you did it yesterday and generally do.
Edukator. Can you stop with your digs at the UK. It's getting really irritating.
Yer man Dr Michael Ryan chief executive director of the WHO was on Marr saying he thinks the UK are taking the correct steps, just this very morning. I'll take his word before yours.
So please, piss off with your agenda.
Edukator I think you may need to step away for this thread for a bit. Your not stop posting and taking things personal when others post isn’t good for you.
Its not that obtuse.
If that's a quote of yours (I never looked at who wrote it I don't care it's terrible advice) .....but if you feel it's personal clearly you wrote it to get the reaction
Offering folk a bonus based on attendance.
Terrible idea.
End of the Matter.
Tagnut. If your car has a valid not expiring march 2020 it will be extended automatically for 3 months. If it's a first mot you must apply for an exemption
If we do go in to lock down, how will that affect things like MOT. My wife is a nurse and the MOT will run out in early June but with garages shut the car cant have its MOT inspection, any thoughts on this?
I would imagine with the decreased traffic and she is a key worker that they wouldn't be that fussed about her using it as long as it is not obviously dangerous.
Well a countries attitude to social distancing does help - even the experts think so.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51970379
Social distancing is affected by government decisions to ban gatherings or close schools, but it also depends on people being willing to take part. That's why public messaging - and individual attitudes - matter.
Lesson six: It's also down to individual attitudes
It's far too simplistic to say, as some have, that Asians are more likely to comply with government orders. In Hong Kong, public trust in the government is low - and there have been months of anti-government protests. But, in one of the densest cities in the world, many have voluntarily socially distanced themselves - with some even avoiding Lunar New Year gatherings, the equivalent of skipping Christmas events.
Prof Pangestu believes that while Hong Kongers do not trust the government, "they are very proud of Hong Kong, and see the outbreak as a threat to [the territory's] identity".One survey suggests 98% of people in Hong Kong wore facemasks in public due to the outbreak
Meanwhile, Karin Huster, a Seattle-based nurse and emergency field co-ordinator for Doctors Without Borders, spent a month in Hong Kong working on coronavirus training. She noticed many there had a strong "individual sense of responsibility" because they remembered the 2003 Sars outbreak that hit the territory particularly hard.
That's also seen in the prevalent use of masks in part of Asia, which Ms Huster says is seen as a sign of "respect towards others".She noticed that occasionally people would avoid getting into a lift with her because she was not wearing a mask. By contrast, in much of the West, people have specifically been told not to wear masks unless they are ill, and many Asians have experienced harassment while wearing one.
Experts in Asia agree that masks are far less effective than measures like hand washing, and that where supplies are limited, they should be left for healthcare workers. But there are different opinions over whether wearing a mask is worthwhile.Benjamin Cowling, an epidemiology professor at the University of Hong Kong, argues: "Masks are not a magic bullet against coronavirus… but if everybody wears face masks, it probably can help, along with all the other measures [like hand washing and social distancing], to reduce transmission.
"The evidence base is quite thin, but we presume they have some effect, because that's the protection we give to healthcare workers."
Can anyone answer my questions above?
With my opinions, yes....
If we follow Italy, how long before a total lockdown?
If we follow their curve and people aren’t morons ten days. So in my opinion middle of this week, Friday at the latest.
Those of you who are off work how much have you reduced your contact?
As much as possible. The kids only got sent home from school on Friday. No family meetups today. Been round to parents to set up some online stuff. Did it all either sat in their porch or outside. No one crossed a threshold. Everyone who stated >2m apart.
Those of you that are taking all the precautions is all your good work undone as soon as you step inside a supermarket and are exposed to those people who headed to Ikea?
Probably not ‘all‘ bit definitely not ‘none’.
It’s a numbers game. The more people do their bit the better the result, it really is as simple as that.
In my opinion the important numbers are being understated. ‘R’, I think is higher than anyone is willing to admit. Mortality looks like it higher too and can’t be kept under wraps much longer.
I really really hope I am wrong.
If we follow their curve and people aren’t morons ten days
So five days then.
If we follow their curve and people aren’t morons ten days
So five days then.
Nah 2 days
The UK approach is fundamentally different from the rest of the world.
Rest of world is adopting a 'Lock Down' approach to completely starve out the virus and attempt total elimination- The 'Chinese Model'
The UK approach is a controlled epidemic, segregating the High Risk group (>70yrs & those with underlying issues) from rest of society (i.e. Low risk population <70yrs with no underlying health issues) for the duration of the outbreak, whilst allowing the Low risk population to spread the virus at a controlled rate developing herd immunity. (*hopefully immunity is conferred to those that contract the virus...)
Understanding this fundamental difference is central to understanding the govt control mechanisms/ policies.
Once we have demonstrated that we can effectively separate the two populations, govt policies will be used to turn on the taps and allow an increased rate of infection amongst the low risk group (as exceedence of the ICU capacity is unlikely to be exceeded).
The sooner we can squirrel away the elderly/vulnerable and support them to be kept squirrelled away, the sooner the pubs will open..there's an incentive for you.
Adversary? Get over yerself fella...
Personally, I appreciate the input of someone seeing a different approach in a different country.
I'd hope we can all try to let people contribute without always trying to win an argument.
Schools out now. Got enough of that with kids at home.
Stay safe all
If we do go in to lock down, how will that affect things like MOT. My wife is a nurse and the MOT will run out in early June but with garages shut the car cant have its MOT inspection, any thoughts on this?
The police will have bigger things to worry about. The courts are concentrating on the serious stuff. Missing your MOT won't be a problem at the moment.
aaaaaand business as usual this morning. facebook feed full of videos of long queues for opening time at tesco, fights over trolleys etc..... ho hum :-/
The UK approach is a controlled epidemic
The problem is that we simply don’t have the levers to control the epidemic and certainly not to keep it at levels that don’t swamp the NHS.