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Only a week back and both my kids schools are quarantining classes already
A week back and no positive tests at either of ours 🤞
Apart from the lockdown restrictions we've not had a bad time of it, getting stuff done and enjoying more of each other's company. However, we've had time to reflect on what we really want to be doing and who we really like to see. It's not sociopathy, paranoia or agoraphobia, I just haven't got the time to waste on some of the types you can imagine living in torytown and it's amazing how 'social settings' can conceal just how boring people can be (often commented on by non-drinkers).
9.3.20 we were at the crowded Lowry for music, we stayed in the same hotel as the Madrid side and their mob, 10.3 my mrs insisted on attending a meeting in Southampton which meant travelling through Cheltenham. Some bloody close calls but my wife gets a jab today and we can maybe start planning again, just (quite) a bit differently.
selfish idiots that will potentially cost lives by refusing a vaccination and spreading misinformation.
Understandable, but aren’t there a lot of people who have little confidence that the establishment will act in their best interests, deporting them to countries they have never lived being one of the worst examples, consistently ignoring their problems, and now that lack of trust comes back to bite, and as the media have ignored them and not realised that they don’t enjoy middle class comedies about suburban angst there is no medium of communication available to counter what they read on Facebook. I’m not sure if that is true as I live in my own bubble, but it seems a plausible explanation for why people act against what you and I see clearly as their own best interests.
Why CG is anti vax - I can’t begin to imagine.
Allay their fears how? There is plenty of evidence that the vaccines are safe. The experts tell us it’s safe. I could tell cinnamon girl that my brother is on the uk’s vaccine safety panel and that he has absolutely no doubts it’s safe, both he and his wife have had it already. But her mind is clearly made up already, based on nonsense they’ve read online and very little scientific understanding. For people like that, like ayjay, I’ll direct my empathy else where.
Plus 345 million COVID 19 vaccinations have been given without causing a zombie apocalypse.
Why CG is anti vax – I can’t begin to imagine
Because given the above, unless she has a valid medical reason, she's an idiot
Plus 345 million COVID 19 vaccinations have been given without causing a zombie apocalypse.
At least not yet. Realistic? Not to me or you, but it’s an obvious reply.
Why CG is anti vax – I can’t begin to imagine.
Why do you assume she is? I just took the prick comment as finding it distasteful not caring that anti-vaxxers may die through their own stupidity.
She's got previous form if you look back far enough on this thread
You really need to ask yourself who the real prick is, the guy who looks down on gullible conspiracy theorists, or the selfish idiots that will potentially cost lives by refusing a vaccination and spreading misinformation.
Obviously anyone who has a medical reason for not getting the vaccine is another matter altogether.
Allay their fears how? There is plenty of evidence that the vaccines are safe. The experts tell us it’s safe. I could tell cinnamon girl that my brother is on the uk’s vaccine safety panel and that he has absolutely no doubts it’s safe, both he and his wife have had it already. But her mind is clearly made up already, based on nonsense they’ve read online and very little scientific understanding. For people like that, like ayjay, I’ll direct my empathy else where.
Crumbs, you sound like one angry chap and how dare you accuse me of reading "nonsense online" and "very little scientific understanding". I have never written my thoughts in a post, the only comment I've made is that I will not have the vaccine and did not give a reason.
Let's deal with the term "antivaxxer". I've had childhood jabs, as have my children so hardly an "antivaxxer". Recently I refused a flu vaccine, it's not something I've had before and see no need for it. As regards refusing a Covid vaccine, I've done my reading and listening and my concerns include but not limited to not wanting to be part of a medical experiment.
You can't say that it's safe, that will not be known for years and may not be put in the public domain anyway.
Crumbs, you sound like one angry chap
I'm not angry in the least. As I have said I genuinely don't care if you get it or not, nor what happens to you if you don't get it. In Fact I'm almost the opposite of angry...The more folks decide to not get it the quicker those who do want it but are lower down the pecking order will get the jab..
how dare you accuse me of reading “nonsense online” and “very little scientific understanding
OK, let's hear your scientific rational for not getting it then? Tell why you think it's not safe, tell us what stages they skipped in the development process etc etc... tell us why you think you are correct and the people whom specialise in vaccines are are wrong?
If you know something everyone else on here doesn't then please share as I'm sure lots of folks (including me) would love to know the dangers before we get the jab.
As regards refusing a Covid vaccine, I’ve done my reading and listening and my concerns include but not limited to not wanting to be part of a medical experiment.
Which is a valid position (if a contentious one)
However, it sounds like you’re saying that you’ve evaluated the options and concluded that the risk to yourself from Covid is less than risks from the vaccine?
I think I’m in the camp that thinks the risk to myself from Covid is very small… but will take the vaccine as soon as it’s my turn, because of all the people who can’t take the vaccine, or are still at risk even after having the vaccine (including friends and family). Do I think less of perfectly healthy people who selfishly refuse the vaccine out of a combination of misplaced fear and self interest, putting other at risk? Yes. Am I angry with them? No. If anyone I considered a friend took this position, and wouldn’t reconsider after talking about it, I’d be very disappointed. Angry? No. Sad? Yes.
As regards refusing a Covid vaccine, I’ve done my reading and listening and my concerns include but not limited to not wanting to be part of a medical experiment.
You can’t say that it’s safe, that will not be known for years and may not be put in the public domain anyway.
You realise that BS is straight out of the anti-vaxxer/conspiracy theory nutjob playbook?
Hopefully there are enough rational people out there taking the vaccines to prevent another 125,000 deaths, our hospitals looking like warzones and our economy tanking.
@kelvin puts it perfectly, couldn't agree more. Though I'm terrified of long Covid, so also really want it from a personal point of view as well.
Hopefully, at 39, by the end of May if you believe some of the current reports.
Let’s hear what CG has to say first as to why she doesn’t want the vaccine before the pitchfork sharpening starts...
Hear her arguments & judge it on its merits.
As regards refusing a Covid vaccine, I’ve done my reading and listening and my concerns include but not limited to not wanting to be part of a medical experiment.
You can’t say that it’s safe, that will not be known for years and may not be put in the public domain anyway.
So -
1. Its OK for others to be experimented on but not you? Nice and selfish of you.
2. You're right there might be something that isn't known till many years down the line, let's scrap all the vaccines on that risk based approach and see where that gets the world.
Let’s hear what CG has to say first as to why she doesn’t want the vaccine before the pitchfork sharpening starts…
Hear her arguments & judge it on its merits.
This seems fair. Though given the tone of the language she's facing I can see why she might not want to.
... or perhaps it’s just that her arguments won’t stand up to any rational analysis.
We can only go on what’s been said…
You can’t say that it’s safe
We can. It’s been tested.
that will not be known for years
How many millions of people need to receive the vaccine safely to allay this fear?
and may not be put in the public domain anyway.
That sounds suspiciously like conspiracy theory nonsense, no? How would any serious adverse effects of a worldwide mass vaccination programme be kept from us?
How many millions of people need to receive the vaccine safely to allay this fear?
I think what was meant is complications that only manifest themselves after x number of years or whatever.
I'd also be interested to see a credible case against taking a vaccine, if there is a real risk then it should be an ethical duty to make that case.
As things stand, I assume some sort of theoretical risk but I'm willing to accept that on the balance of probability that it will mitigate a very proven risk to others. As much an ethical position as anything.
That sounds suspiciously like conspiracy theory nonsense, no? How would any serious adverse effects of a worldwide mass vaccination programme be kept from us?
😂 yeah i was wondering the same. Maybe the microchips will programme us all not to speak out or something?
Though given the tone of the language she’s facing I can see why she might not want to.
In fairness, her introduction to the debate was to call me a prick so she can hardly complain about the negative tones 😂
Anyhow.. I too am intrigued to hear her rational...
How would any serious adverse effects of a worldwide mass vaccination programme be kept from us?
Simple. The New World Order led by the Rothchilds, Bill Gates and the Lizard People from the Hollow Earth will suppress it with thought control through the 5g network
I think what was meant is complications that only manifest themselves after x number of years or whatever.
A fair concern, though I think TiRed has done his best to address this.
As things stand, I assume some sort of theoretical risk but I’m willing to accept that on the balance of probability that it will mitigate a very proven risk to others. As much an ethical position as anything.
Until someone can give me scientific evidence to the contrary, that's my position.
That sounds suspiciously like conspiracy theory nonsense
Kind of undermines my intention to try and give the benefit of the doubt
As things stand, I assume some sort of theoretical risk but I’m willing to accept that on the balance of probability that it will mitigate a very proven risk to others. As much an ethical position as anything.
Pretty much this actually. There is a very small theoretical risk, but no more than any other vaccine I've ever had. The pros to both me and society far outweigh the risk
I don't think people should be compelled to get vaccinated tbf, but I think they are Pretty stupid not to without good reason. What I do have an issue with is folks spreading lies online about the vaccine that discourages others from getting it. I'm not referring to CG here..but it's obviously an issue.
CG, I've defended yours and other's rights to a different opinion and I will again here. I've taken some alternate views on here as well, at times.
But you need to come with a case, and listen to the counter arguments. I've done my reading doesn't cut it.
I will defend anyone’s right not to accept the vaccine. But I will say this. Everyone will most likely catch SARS-CoV-2 eventually. I’m in no doubt of that. This will take a few years to settle into a seasonal cycle, but we’ve seen reinfection already in a small number of highly exposed healthcare workers.
We do not know the long term sequela of infection, but there are instances of long-term morbidity on a fraction. We don’t know the extent of that morbidity. It’s been a grim year for myself, but one swallow is not a summer. I personally would have welcomed any intervention that redu Ed my own morbidity at the time of my infection.
ALL medical interventions are given on the basis of benefit and risk. I believe the data shows that the benefits outweigh the risks. Regulatory agencies have come to the same conclusion (and the data is available for your own reading). But you can’t say that a vaccine is safe. We can only infer with greater confidence that the intervention is not unsafe. And for some, the benefit, come infection time, will outweigh the risk.
It’s a little like bicycle helmets. For most riding, they add little. For the occasional off, you’ll be glad you had one. Everyone falls off eventually. Most have little consequence. A friend died on an innocuous fall without one. I put mine into the side of a 4x4 at 20mph. Both actually rare events. I was glad of it. For me the vaccine is the same.
CG "I'm not an anti vaxxer"
Also CG "I will not have the Covid vaccine, I've done my research and it can't be proved to be safe".
Erm, your 'research' is bollox, you're an anti vaxxer....get in the sea, so that the rest of us might be able to recover our livelihoods eh. Prick.
No-one should be bullied into having a medical intervention against their will. Thankfully uptake seems sufficiently high that it is clear these viewpoints are very much in the margins, and the consequences, if any, will be generally restricted to those making those choices. Which is obviously something they've considered and accepted.
Of course, if those people try to persuade others to do the same, especially on here, then they can expect their reasoning to come under some robust scrutiny.
Thankfully uptake seems sufficiently high that it is clear these viewpoints are very much in the margins, and the consequences, if any, will be generally restricted to those making those choices.
Every time the BBC or Sky news post a youtube vid about COVID 19 or vaccination the comments section is a cesspool of anti-vaxxers, COVID deniers or conspiracy theory nutjobs. Even if half the comments are trolls or posted by Russian bot farms that leaves an awful lot of idiots with "marginal" viewpoints out there who can influence the easily led.
Generally I'm a libertarian and I say do what you want as long as you are prepared to accept the consequences and it doesn't harm anyone else. Get cancer and prefer to treat it with a wacky diet and positive thinking (Steve Jobs anyone) then fine. But when it comes to vaccination the consequence are not restricted to those making the choices and by not having the vaccination they are compromising the health of their fellow humans including me and my family so I'm going to call them out their BS
If you scroll back a number of pages you'll find a contribution by @batfink
You probably won't do that, so i will try to paraphrase.
You will have heard that the time it takes to bring a drug, like a vaccine, to market, is ten years minimum, right?
So if it takes 6 months it means that 'corners have been cut', right? It hasn't been properly tested, yes? You can't assume any long-term effects, obviously, right?
But where does the time go?
Usually it would take ten years for this vaccine to go from research to development to shots in the arm -
it could take 1-2 years (minimum) to convince the Company that this is worth putting time and resources into
Let's call that 1
Once Step 1 has been achieved it will take at least 1-2 years to get the doctors on board to find clinical subjects for trial
Let's call that 3
Once the doctors are in it will take 1-3 years to get enough willing participants to start a double blind trial
Let's call that 5
Once the doctors have managed to rope in, say, 5000 willing subjects, we now wait until we have achieved 100 infections across both groups - it is not massively virulent , so this could take a while
Let's call that 7
Now we need a regulatory body to look at our results
Let's call that - well what else are they looking at? Is it more important?
Here we are at 10 years!
Now look back at every step of the way in the middle of a Pandemic -
How long do you think it took for the go ahead at the Pharma Cos?
How long do you think it took to get doctors on board?
How long to get tens of thousands of trial participants?
How long to get virus challenge data across both groups?
How long for the regulatory agencies to pull the proverbial finger out?
In the middle of a pandemic?
The obvious answer to all of the above is not long - that's why it's been so quick. We are already in the midst of a massive trial of a mass vaccination program that has yielded more results in a few months than you could hope for in many, many years of a standard drug trial.
What, though, are the long term effects?
What are the long term effects of your TB jabs? Tetanus? Diptheria, Hep B, Polio and Whooping Cough? Your MMR?
Adulthood, is the long term effect of all your previous vaccinations - dotage the effect of this next one.
Every time the BBC or Sky news post a youtube vid about COVID 19 or vaccination the comments section is a cesspool of anti-vaxxers, COVID deniers or conspiracy theory nutjobs. Even if half the comments are trolls or posted by Russian bot farms that leaves an awful lot of idiots with “marginal” viewpoints out there who can influence the easily led.
Zahawi claimed (I think) that the UK population is at 94% positive towards the vaccine or something along those lines. But 6% is still a lot of people especially when part of that 6% believes what they do for the reasons I've seen implied.
It’s a little like bicycle helmets. For most riding, they add little. For the occasional off, you’ll be glad you had one.
Dear God man, don't start that one again. Well be at rotational forces before you can cycle into a head height branch.
Ah, sorry @Tired. I got distracted by the dog in that last post and missed the second half of the paragraph and now too late too edit.
Genuine apologies.
Can I be clear that when - earlier in this thing - I suggested allaying the fears of those who have doubts about taking up the vaccine, I was thinking largely of ethnic minorities and deprived communities who according to research are less receptive to vaccination rather than rabid conspiracty theorists.
That said, there's a level of anti-anti-vax frothing on this thread which is disappointing. Somewhere is the line where you accept that no matter how much you disagree with people's opinions, you have to step back and think about what sort of society you want to live in and whether it's one where you force people to allow medical interventions against their will.
If the number of people not being vaccinated endangered society as a whole then it's arguably a different situation, but I'm not sure it is atm. Vaccination doesn't need 100% take-up to be effective, if it did, it would never work.
Anyway, I'm off to be vaccinated this morning after probably the most miserable year of my life. Trust me, if I could have been vaccinated 12 months ago and missed out on 12 months of long covid, I'd have bitten your arm off and eaten it.
Erm, your ‘research’ is bollox, you’re an anti vaxxer….get in the sea, so that the rest of us might be able to recover our livelihoods eh. Prick.
If you can't deal with an opposing view without resorting to insults, can you go and do it somewhere else please.
The experts tell us it’s safe. I could tell cinnamon girl that my brother is on the uk’s vaccine safety panel and that he has absolutely no doubts it’s safe, both he and his wife have had it already. But her mind is clearly made up already, based on nonsense they’ve read online and very little scientific understanding.
In any period of history, there will be some high profile, super smart, arrogant expert(s) with a massive ego shouting loudly about some medical intervention which they proclaim to be the only way forward.
They may or may not be profiting financially, but often just the ego massage is enough.
Some time later, the truth comes out and the people who spoke out against said experts but were shouted down as deniers are shown to have been right all along.
I mean, if you are prescribed a particular brain treatment by Dr Freeman, Yale educated, Neuropathology PHD director of neurology, himself mentored by a Nobel prize winner - then who are you to argue?
A healthy distrust of experts is perfectly understandable imo. There are several people in the past few pages of this thread showing themselves as pricks, but CG is not one of them.
I've personally seen some really nasty reactions to the vaccine. I'll take it myself when it's offered, but would be happy not to if my name was left off the list somehow.
MCTD, CG was the one whose opening gambit was to call someone a prick! The problems with uptake in some BAME communities is a real problem for us as a society for a multitude of reasons, and does need addressing.
However, people saying that they've done their own research and don't want the vaccine because it isn't safe, should quite frankly either STFU or take that opinion elsewhere.
However, people saying that they’ve done their own research and don’t want the vaccine because it isn’t safe, should quite frankly either STFU or take that opinion elsewhere.
No, they should have the courage of their convictions to share their understanding of what they have read, without fear of being instantly being ridiculed and humiliated.
Bedmaker - I don't know what nasty reactions you've personally seen to this vaccine, there surely is no comparison to the nasty mental health problems our nhs staff are having to go through, the everyday uncomfortable working environment of having to wear full ppe, not being able to drink or eat properly (nevery mind visiting aloo), the awfulness of telling loved ones over the phone that their relative have died from covid (in some cases a horrible death).
Yes I agree that we in this country have the freedom to say 'no', however imo it's foolish.
I’ve personally seen some really nasty reactions to the vaccine. I’ll take it myself when it’s offered, but would be happy not to if my name was left off the list somehow.
It will be offered to you at some point. It depends what you mean by 'really nasty reactions' - life-threatening anaphylaxis or just generally feeling like shite for a few days? Most people who have suffered some form of Long Covid would be of the view that the latter would be infinitely preferable.
You'd expect a small number of serious reactions to any vaccine, and we have given it to 24 million people so far, in the context of a pandemic that his so far killed well over 100,000. The safety profile of both main jabs appears to be pretty decent.
https://www.ft.com/content/68a26565-6de1-44db-8569-50b64b20385a
CG.. has a belief it's not safe.
This is not necessarily based on fact or evidence. Some people believe in God. Quite often people believe something and no matter the facts or evidence that may say otherwise.. will stick by it.
Have heard of and reported a few different reactions to the vaccinations.
None of the people suffering from the reactions have said they regret getting the vaccine considering the alternative.
If people don't want the vaccine that is in them but if they are saying that from purely belief rather than evidence then they should expect that there may be negative consequences such as travel issues and potentially restricted access to some places.
That is on top of the fact that they will get covid at some point and there is a chance the virus could be more dangerous by that point so the outcome could be more severe by that point
By all means choose, but decisions have consequences, especially when the choice affects others rather than just yourself.
My job requires me to have vaccines and I can’t have a criminal conviction.
I am absolutely free to not have the inoculations, but that choice would force me to leave my job.
If people don’t want the vaccine that is in them but if they are saying that from purely belief rather than evidence then they should expect that there may be negative consequences such as travel issues and potentially restricted access to some places.
That is on top of the fact that they will get covid at some point and there is a chance the virus could be more dangerous by that point so the outcome could be more severe by that point
Depends on whether the situation becomes such that country-wide restrictions stay in place in order to protect people refusing a vaccination.
Both my parents were ill after the vaccine for a few days. Unfortunately my dad appeared to have contracted CV when attending his jab, talk about incredible bad luck. He was in a really bad way and I thought the last I'd see of him was him being taken away in an ambulance.
I'm glad to say he's back home with mum now and he sounds the most chipper I've heard him in years.
The vaccine in my mind is now linked to this episode, but I can rationalise it as being massively unlucky and I think that the vaccine itself may have helped stave off the worst of the virus, and my dad was only a few hours away from death when I got the emergency services to him, his stats were on the floor.
The scale of the vaccination programme and the decades of research give me ample comfort that this is safe, look at the history of the AZ Oxford vaccine, they've been looking at this for a long time.
However, I understand that people will have reservations, and we need to work with them on this, not against them. Name calling and shaming is counterproductive, it pushes the people away who most need support. This in turn leads people to find like minded individuals, and the misinformation spreads.
The numbers now vaccinated should be showing up issues now if there were any serious ones.
Feeling crap for a few days I'll readily take over the risk of long covid. I've come to cherish being fit and would be gutted to lose that.
Be excellent to each other, stop name calling and help folk out, listen to their concerns, don't scare them away.
No, they should have the courage of their convictions to share their understanding of what they have read, without fear of being instantly being ridiculed and humiliated.
The irony of that though is that the reason she got dragged into this is because i shared an opinion about those that refuse the vaccine and her opening gambit was to insult me.
So whilst I'd usually find the subsequent pile on a bit mean, not so much in this case
What i would say is I have previously challenged her to share the scientific research she has done with the rest of us and she didn't seem to want to do it then either.
CG is quite entitled to her opinion without being insulted , what she's got to realise is likewise I'm entitled to mine without her calling me names.