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the facts as we see them do not warrant such measures
Guess these folks are just kidding, then ...
That some people act responsible enough to know when we see the panic and outrage that some of you possess that we simply laugh at you.
That is now on the interwebs forever against your name. Good work!
How many packets of bog roll are you sat on there? 20? 30?
I watched at least part of the first three live Boris streams on the BBC, didn't bother yesterday and I'm not sure I can be bothered today... It's all soundbites without pro-active action, just like the other thing he championed.
I watched at least part of the first three live Boris streams on the BBC, didn’t bother yesterday and I’m not sure I can be bothered today… It’s all soundbites without pro-active action, just like the other thing he championed.
He was back to his "jolly japes" routine yesterday.
He tried "Serious Crisis Leader" for three days and got bored.
We really deserve better leadership.
Wishy washy responses from #LiarJohnson and as for this "I've looked in my crystal ball and we'll be done with this in 12 weeks" then you lot wonder why some of the the public behave as they do. It's called "no confidence" in a Government that thinks it knows best.
I live in the same county as bikebouy, it's the one with the most number of confirmed cases after London. Have still had to do my normal shopping, no panic buying here although shops are busier than normal and nobody is keeping their distance when queuing. Noticed one elderly person with a mask.
We need strong leadership and a Government that actually gives a flying fig about the electorate. Call for (another) General Election.
Personally I take it that you are witnessing people who seem ignorant of the seriousness of the situation
Exactly my point.
You lot raging about how dangerous this thing is, the total severity etc. Etc. Just isn’t doing anything for anyone.
You are shouting at a black hole no-one is interested in listening to.
By all means carry on the rage, it’s funny to see functioning humans react in the manner you are when people all around you just see some social media addicts ranting.
Go rant at those Grannies in the Queue at the post office this morning, or the kids tagging and hugging each other as they came out of school. Or the ground workers on the M27 sharing fags in a huddle.
S’pose no-one wants to hear that message to their faces so social media is your vent trumpet..
🤷♂️💨
without pro-active action,
Bars, theatres, clubs, leisure centres etc to be forced to shut. Grants for ANY employers to keep workers on, 80% of salaries to be paid by govt, up to £2500 a month, if required.
And there you go in one fell swoop they've just demonstrated full blown MMT. (it was always coming.)
Shame it's taken this to prove it.
I do wonder how the HMRC will deal with that though.
S’pose no-one wants to hear that message to their faces so social media is your vent trumpet.
Get with the times Grandad. Social media is what sets the agenda.
& also. You were the one who said 'quite rightly' I take it you think transmitting the virus is a good idea.
Is it just me or was that more Primeministerial than the Prime Minister?
No-one raging, no-one shouting, just you ranting, Bikebouy. Anything informed to add?
The graphs point more and more to the UK following the Italian experience. The UK is now where Italy was on 6/3/2020, three days before their confinement. The UK situation is no longer comparable with France or Spain, both of which had already imposed home confinement on the population by the stage the UK is at now. The lack of testing in the UK means the UK may be even further along the path to hospital saturation than the published numbers suggest.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
vent trumpet
Yawn.
Wow BB. Do you reckon you should maybe get a check up mate?
You seem to be dismissing people's concerns (admittedly some more panicky than the majority who are pretty rational) on the basis that you saw some people not listening the advice of a weak and ponderous Government. So rather than take any notice of the social media lot, you're more comforted by school kids and road diggers?
I'm not sure what your point is still. Are you saying because some people you saw are ignoring advice that all is well in the world or that seeing old grannies diligently queues for stuff given you a comforting glow?
I think most people's concerns lie with the lack of any leadership in this country and the f*** it we'll be alright cos we won the war attitude. It's both incompetent and reckless in the extreme. Stick around a couple of weeks then go back to this page of the thread. Then maybe we can pick up a sensible conversation eh?
I'm reading from some of my colleagues in London that ITU's are already having to move patients to other hospitals. This usually only ever happens in severe critical incidents like 7/7. We are still in the early days of this and things are going to heat up pretty quickly now. Nobody will be arguing about the seriousness of this in a couple of weeks. The UK government has screwed up any potential warning period it had but there's nothing we can do now. We're all just going to need to ride this wave now.
but my understanding was the overwhelming major vector for transmission is touch.
Its one of the transmission vectors but mostly it's airborne , the virus latches into ACE proteins and those are all over your body, including your nose and GIT. It's also faecally transmitted (upto 40% of the "unknown sources" in China it's reckoned) and via blood (rare) overwhelming numbers of cases is airborne though.
It's also thought some young kids are supershedders for upto 32 days after infection (with no symptoms)
Bojo the Bumbling **** Wit.
Sunak with the clear answers.
Politics aside lets have him each day please.
https://twitter.com/robertjenrick/status/1241050795849797632?s=21
Makes sense. Not about panicking. Just cutting off the spread so that the health service can cope (the lag may mean that this is a week too late to avoid hospitals being overloaded, but better late than never).
At the end of all this, anyone who resisted the social distancing measures needs to think about the health care professionals that would otherwise have survived if the public had acted to stop the spread when asked to, rather than having to be made to.
Bojo the Bumbling **** Wit.
Sunak with the clear answers.
Politics aside lets have him each day please.
I think BoJo has handled well. I understand him clearly.
Is it just me or was that more Primeministerial than the Prime Minister?
He's impressed me this last week. Hope he continues.
There’s so much hysteria on this thread it’s like the worst mother’s group on Facebook. Embarrassing. Sit tight, the politicising and ranting is ridiculous! Stay safe folks.
I think BoJo has handled well. I understand him clearly.
Frankly, I agree.
Strange isn’t it… the PM has allowed his JR to make all the real announcements, while he looks and sounds like he’s just hand waving… perhaps he’s already looking to step aside later.
There’s so much hysteria on this thread
Which bit? Those calling for:
- pub closures rather than vague advice to stay away from them?
- school closures rather than acting like kids can’t spread this?
- direct wage/income help from the government for the employees of businesses hit?
- cancellation of large events like football matches?
All now happening.
Strange isn’t it… the PM has allowed his JR to make all the real announcements, while he looks and sounds like he’s just hand waving… perhaps he’s already looking to step aside later.
Crikey 🙄
There’s so much hysteria on this thread it’s like the worst FATHER'S group on Facebook.
FTFY
Edit: let's leave sexism out of this eh?
You lot raging about how dangerous this thing is, the total severity etc. Etc. Just isn’t doing anything for anyone.
I'm not raging, merely providing facts based on analysis. The facts are that the healthcare system in the UK is already running at high capacity and is faced with a challenge. That challenge is the spread of a contagion that may offer further stress to the system. Currently in the UK, cases and deaths attributed to this agent are doubling every 2 days. Intervention on a population level is required to slow that doubling rate.
Sadly most people are only able to think on linear scales - it's why they are surpried by compound interest and how pensions work. Epidemic spread is non-linear and on a logarithmic scale. If we reduce contacts, this can reduce the problem to a linear one. That may lead to sufficiently few cases as not to completely swamp the health service. This has not been the case in North Italy.
One acts now to prevent things later. When the factor you are trying to prevent is compounded exponentially, predictions can appear wildly over-pessimistic But the number of critical care beds is not in doubt, and even conservative predictions show that they will be challenged.
🤦 guess what all the pubs on my social media are posting... something on the lines of...
We’re shutting, not sure for how long, come and have 1 last night out!
guess what all the pubs on my social media are posting… something on the lines of…
We’re shutting, not sure for how long, come and have 1 last night out!
same here. draught beer £1 a pint. itll be rammed later :-/
If it continues to double every 2 days we’ll have 128x more deaths/cases in just 14 days. If the ICUs are getting close to full now it will be ugly.
I think the flattening the peak has nothing to do with NHS capacity more making sure they can dispose of the bodies.
Very, very welcome:
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1241066719147425793?s=21
(Even though it doesn’t include me).
I think the flattening the peak has nothing to do with NHS capacity more making sure they can dispose of the bodies.
They kind of go hand in his, the NHS capacity being reduced means less fatalities. Again this was made clear in earlier press conferences.
Stay safe Drac. Get ready for those beers* we’ll all be buying you after the worst of this.
[ edit: *full price, not clearout dregs ]
Wetherspoon boss Tim Martin defends decision to keep pubs open:
The pubs and micro-bars I frequent closed down of their own choice over the past few days.
Very, very welcome:
I'd agree, but what was stopping them applying the same rule to the self-employed based on their 3 year accounts? It's inexplicable, like they just have to make sure someone gets f***** no matter what. Gig workers also screwed, and they could have compelled employers to keep people on. I bet a lot still decide to lay people off because it's easier for them to do that than keep them on.
It’s inexplicable
I’m hoping it’s just unfinished.
Can I get a haircut? Should I get a haircut.
Seems like a bad idea really. Problem is the alternative is my wife has offered to give me a number 3 all over* with the horses clippers.
*and I'm not sure what she meant 😲
*and I’m not sure what she meant 😲
Means she's making you into velcro is going to stick you to the curtains in the event of a need for self isolation.
Am I unduly cynical or is Rishi Sunak ****ing himself senseless making big announcements?
and I’m not sure what she meant
Number 3 sounds a bit short … as for a number 1 all over instead.
Am I unduly cynical or is Rishi Sunak **** himself senseless making big announcements?
While on the face of it yes.
But I think he's going as far as he dare to prevent cival unrest taking down our country at this time of great need.
There is no illusion we will pay for this for the rest of our lives through taxation and cuts but it's better than paying for it with your life.
Boris is not doing anything to prevent it at the moment that much is sure
His first announcement might as well have been"look around. To the person to your left to your right Infront and behind. 1 of you will likely die"
That wasn't going to end well even if it's the truth.
His first announcement might as well have been”look around. To the person to your left to your right Infront and behind. 1 of you will likely die”
That wasn’t going to end well even if it’s the truth.
1 in 5, that's simply not the truth. Even in the worst case with the "herd" approach that seems to be quietly being dropped then 20% or 13.4 milion is an order of magnitude (or possibly 2 orders of magnitude) too high.
As for taxation and cuts, I suggest it might be the start of some spending money printed by central banks instead of handing it to banks who hand it to money hoarders. A rebirth of the welfare state, it's what Macron included in his speech and he's an ex-banker so knows what not to do.
There is no illusion we will pay for this for the rest of our lives through taxation and cuts but it’s better than paying for it with your life.
Pretty sure we won't. As Rone said above this has moved us to a completely new economic reality that looks a lot like MMT. When we come out of this nightmare they'll have a choice as to whether to maintain that or go back to business as usual. The latter will involve writing down massive and unsustainable debts requiring huge taxes and austerity. No one's going to vote for that. Even if they did decide to revert back to the neoliberal model, it's going to take a very long time on the scale of decades, and it would need to be coordinated with other major powers. As I've said in previous posts this is an economic revolution. They have no choice but to do it, because the alternative is a complete collapse in the economy.
Looking past the fantasy, of course “we” will pay for this… but it’ll be over a twenty year plus period, hopefully much longer. We’ve only recently stopped paying for the loans required for the post war patching up of our society… but just like back then, this is necessary and welcome. And then there is the question of who pays and how. “We” is a very vague term.
It might be inflated away. But where we are we do this because we need to. We fix the problems it creates later.
Even in the worst case with the “herd” approach that seems to be quietly being dropped
Quietly dropped like Brexit?
Which is of course completely impossible as it was never there in the first place. If it never existed it cant be dropped.
Hopefully that covers both sides for a balanced perspective.
who pays and how
I'd start with massive hike in inheritance tax. Basically as old folks die off the government takes their assets to pay off the debt.. seems fair given the youth of today will be paying through their nose to keep them alive just now (and rightly so)
Won't happen, but seems the fairest way to get back on track quickly..
seems fair given the youth of today will be paying through their nose to keep them alive just now
We all pay including the elderly who have paid for decades already.
I’d start with massive hike in inheritance tax. Basically as old folks die off the government takes their assets to pay off the debt.. seems fair given the youth of today will be paying through their nose to keep them alive just now (and rightly so)
As an elderly person I've been paying plenty and was hoping to pass on the rest to my children. Your proposal seems a bit mean to me.
So that's the pubs shut then.
Barely see anyone in them these days - advise people to avoid them and suddenly everyone's desperate to go.
They must be the same people who go twice a year at Christmas.
Barely see anyone in them these days – advise people to avoid them and suddenly everyone’s desperate to go.
They must be the same people who go twice a year at Christmas.
Actually, properly? Go on you're making it up. There'd never been a Boris bounce after such an impassioned pleeeeeeeaaaaaaassssssseeeeee.
I’d start with massive hike in inheritance tax.
Not going to be necessary. This debt is going to be so massive that it's simply not possible to pay it back, so why even bother? Every other country will be in exactly the same boat - although the US will try to gain advantage as always - the global community will strike a deal to make it dissappear. There is no way we'll have an extended period of austerity aftre this, instead it'll be the opposite like after WWII. Hopefully they'll also take the opportunity to make sure it's a zero-carbon recovery too.
Of course this is all on the proviso that they avoid collapse. They might have solved the immediate risk of collapse of the labour market, but they haven't yet addressed the problem in the financial markets where trillions of dollars of securitised debts could cause banks and strategic industries to fail (see post earlier today to guardian article). And then after that what about shareholders and private capital? They're not going to be happy about their fixed assets disappearing in an orgy of money printing. Interesting times ahead once the virus danger is over.
As an elderly person I’ve been paying plenty and was hoping to pass on the rest to my children.
I'm sure you were, as we're my folks. But we face a situation whereby society in general will be utterly economically screwed for a generation, and someone has to pay for it. So it's either massive tax hike on earnings and austerity for years, or when people die much more acquired wealth goes to the state.
I'd be one of the ones that would lose out, my folks have far more assets than me. But maybe it's time there is a bit more redistribution of wealth.
We all pay including the elderly who have paid for decades already.
As an elderly person I’ve been paying plenty and was hoping to pass on the rest to my children.
Bollocks to that. Everyones' taxes paid to look after their parents, or you should have done, but many voted for tax cuts, a run down of public services and pension holidays and benefitted hugely from cheap housing and booming post-war economy under the false impression you 'earned it'?
The chickens will come home to roost now that the reality is that our civic infrastructure can't cope and will need huge investment to rebuild and reinforce. The neoliberal, free market capitalist small government model is dead and buried if we have any chance of recovery because stuffing it in the back-pockets of bankers and CEOs isn't going to do anything for the guys with no job or money to pay rent or help create a resilient health service.
I’d start with massive hike in inheritance tax. Basically as old folks die off the government takes their assets to pay off the debt.. seems fair given the youth of today will be paying through their nose to keep them alive just now (and rightly so)
The youth of today is presumably hoping to use that inheritance for its own purposes
... and will be the majority voting demographic if this goes as feared
chewkw
MemberI think BoJo has handled well. I understand him clearly.
I agree with, no idea why people are shouting. Been fairly obvious since last Thursday we've been going into a managed shut down.
I don't really think people are listening much. Been pretty obvious to me.
I don’t really think people are listening much. Been pretty obvious to me.
Indeed.
The youth of today is presumably hoping to use that inheritance for its own purposes
Maybe it's just me but I'd rather see wealth spread out. I think it fundamentally unfair that generation after generation get handed vast inheritance they have not earned whilst others go poor. I know of at least 3 people who are close to me who will in the not too distant future become multi millionaires when they inherit family wealth. It's not even money their own parents earned, as they themselves inherited it.
By taking a far bigger cut of inheritance less people will get richer, but on the other hand No one will be poorer. I fail to see how that isn't a good thing.
Shutdown needs to happen, whilst it is quieter in my city there are still people and cars absolutely everywhere. Loads of people ignoring and carrying on.
Can we not just tax everyone sending triumphant txt messages from the pub tonight?
Shutdown needs to happen, whilst it is quieter in my city there are still people and cars absolutely everywhere. Loads of people ignoring and carrying on.
Ditto in the town where I live. I'm WFH and went out for an hour for some exercise - the town centre was as per normal and the pubs full of people. Reality will hit and hit very hard.
OK. So just to clarify I am not, and have not, questioned the message that Bojo has been putting out. However, in my humble opinion his oratory style is bumbling. Sunak's is much clearer and definite. Nothing to do with the message being given but the manner. Something to do with gravitas. Using forum-speak YMMV (had to look that up) 😜
I think the debt the country will be in will be like my 90s student loans. Low interest and only payable back if I earn enough.
Every year the amount I have to earn to start paying back goes up far more than my wages.
It’s just a virtual debt after a while. Life goes on without it actually having an effect on me.
Mine will be written off in a couple of years...
1 in 5, that’s simply not the truth. Even in the worst case with the “herd” approach that seems to be quietly being dropped then 20% or 13.4 milion is an order of magnitude (or possibly 2 orders of magnitude) too high.
That's why I never quoted him. I was using it as an example of what he could have got away with saying in leiu of what he actually said and it wouldn't have shocked any more than what he actually said. --its also paraphrasing a line from a famous movie.
But don't let that get in the way of your always trying to be Google correct.
but the manner. Something to do with gravitas. U
Yep and I said the same about macrons speach.
Bojo looked foolish , everything he said just bumbled through.
Even trump managed to come out looking better than bojo recently. - and I don't say that lightly.
Pub over the road is having a final noisy karaoke piss up lock in.
We can literally hear darwinism in action.
Am I unduly cynical or is Rishi Sunak **** himself senseless making big announcements?
I couldn’t give a shit one way or the other if he gets off on it or not. If they make the right decisions and do the right things then that is good enough.
Even trump managed to come out looking better than bojo recently. – and I don’t say that lightly.
Are you sure about that?
https://twitter.com/podsaveamerica/status/1241041962871881728?s=21
trail_rat
Even trump managed to come out looking better than bojo recently. – and I don’t say that lightly.
You are tripping fella.
seosamh77
SubscriberI agree with, no idea why people are shouting. Been fairly obvious since last Thursday we’ve been going into a managed shut down.
I think people are shouting- or calmly criticising- because we've waited til the day hospitals start overflowing before going into a "managed shutdown". We had an advantage here that Italy would have killed for and it's been largely pissed away. And even now that it's finally happening, it's being done as counterproductively as possible- "pubs are closed... from tomorrow! Get the beers in!".
chewkw
MemberI think BoJo has handled well. I understand him clearly.
So Johnson says we can defeat it in 12 weeks
At the same time his science advisors say that measure will have to be in place for a year......
Tbh. I've gave up trying to reason with people that won't leave their personal biases to one side.
Have fun.
We can literally hear darwinism in action.
Nope, they’ll (nearly) all be fine. It’s not their own lives they’re being sanguine about. Depressing stuff.
I think people are shouting- or calmly criticising- because we’ve waited til the day hospitals start overflowing before going into a “managed shutdown”. We had an advantage here that Italy would have killed for and it’s been largely pissed away. And even now that it’s finally happening, it’s being done as counterproductively as possible- “pubs are closed… from tomorrow! Get the beers in!”.
This !
Last week we were told that it was better to 'suggest' we avoid pubs , now as cases skyrocket & hospitals and itu units are at capacity , it's become an order,
The delay, in onset of disease, the vulnerable presenting in hospital & ending up in itu, means that in 1-2 weeks another big spike in admissions.
Meanwhile My Dr colleagues have spent today going round schools & research institutes to confiscate goggles as one of the largest hospitals in London has none .....
The number of people telling us Johnson is doing a great job only seems to be increasing 🙄
Having been in isolation since Tuesday after my Mrs came down with it- just took the dog for a late night walk so i wouldn't bump into anyone and along with the pub over the road it’s like we’ve won the world cup, pubs are busy, cars are tooting their horns, some **** has just let some fireworks off! You know what - i dont care if our death toll far surpasses Italy or Spain, we deserve it.
I am kind of wondering if the drip feed policy has a point. Maybe a week or two ago there really would have been mass disobedience if they had tried to bring in mandatory restrictions judging by what’s happening tonight. Tough call
The number of new cases in China seems to have dropped to a minimal level. I understand that they achieved that via tight controls on movement and mixing. What I don't understand is how it doesn't flare up again in other provinces where there have not been such tight restrictions. If the figures are to be believed the overall percentage of the population infected is pretty low. They must be vulnerable now to another outbreak or peak?
I think people are shouting- or calmly criticising- because we’ve waited til the day hospitals start overflowing before going into a “managed shutdown”. We had an advantage here that Italy would have killed for and it’s been largely pissed away. And even now that it’s finally happening, it’s being done as counterproductively as possible- “pubs are closed… from tomorrow! Get the beers in!”.
Another +1
We've had the warnings from other countries, and have now witnessed the horrific scenes in Itlay, yet as a nation, we're not heeding their advice. Well, we might be now, finally - but could well be far too late to prevent the same thing happening in the Uk. I very much hope that I am wrong.
What I don’t understand is how it doesn’t flare up again in other provinces where there have not been such tight restrictions.
Geographically restricted in China. It took lots of testing and heavy restriction of people known to have been near people who have tested positive. It doesn’t spread on its own by magic. People spread it. Don’t let people leave areas with it, and it doesn’t get into other areas.
Frankly I’m scared, not for me but my wife is about to start next round of cancer treatment. We’ll keep it tight but it’s other people’s casual approach to this that does my head in. That and my old man who is 90 and has a history of chest infections. Sarcastic bugger was in top form when I spoke to him tonight but I fear for him. At least both my parents are being sensible about this but still .........
Education and awareness a blessing and a curse...
Ignorance and uncaring a blessing and a curse...
Two sides of the same coin...
Brexit/Corona virus/racism same shit, same split...