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Quibblist!
Kenneth Copeland (multimillionaire grifter from God televangelist) has stopped Covid-19 dead in it’s tracks, at least in the US of A.
Which was nice of him. (Even if he saw fit to heal bald spots first. Could they have waited?)
Worthy only of being sculpted in metal guitar. Cheered me up. Stay well, all.
A caveat is that any dose left over should go into the nearest unvaccinated arm. No quibbles.
So full disclosure. It's been a moral dilemma for someone about 6ft from me this evening - instructed it's her turn tomorrow. As I said earlier there has been a bit of mission creep from 'it would be handy to have a few head office staff knocking around at the end of the day when home X gets done tomorrow to get any left overs' to '10 of you are booked in to home Y tomorrow, but we don't want it interfering with your working day so be there early enough to be done before the residents and it's all legit because [option 3 above]'
Dilemma because she is probably just about living the most safe covid life imaginable, all too aware of the many relatives of residents desperate to have one so they can visit again but weeks down the list (plus queue jumping her elderly parents, asthmatic teacher sister still in the classroom etc etc); at the same time being 'told' it's her turn; and turning down the option potentially looking bad to the significant minority of vax sceptics amongst the care staff they are trying to encourage. And is it something you'd turn down if offered early anyway.....we'll all get it eventually.
Are they roping in layman to help with the jabbing? What sort of training is needed?
No real moral dilemma once you explain it covert, just convincing a few vaccine sceptics is good enough reason in my book.
There will surely be many instances, given the cold train limitations, where the alternative will be shots going to waste - drag in passers-by and cosh them if necessary.
It seems to be the only real success story we have going for us at the moment, let's just stick any excess in anyone who's near.
Drug development person here..... nothing to really add to what superficial and tired said.
Pfizer can only (gently) push back on delaying the second dose of their vaccine - they are obliged to - anything other than that would amount to "off label promotion" and result in hundreds of millions of dollars in fines.
Pharma companies will usually try to find a balance between providing information to Drs wanting to stray "off label" (in the form of directing them towards any published data) - but making it clear that they would be doing so at their own risk. In this situation, Pfizer might have a small amount of data for a trial patients who's second dose was delayed by varying degrees - but that would have been (by it's nature) uncontrolled so not particularly helpful. There might be slightly more people who only had the first dose - but there would have been a significant amount of effort to avoid that.
The more things you want your trial to show, the more patients you need to recruit to do it - and the longer it takes. We get lots of clients who want to throw the kitchen sink at their trial - only to have to simplify significantly when they see how much it's going to cost/how long that's going to take.
All their effort would have been to get a single regimen tested so that it could be approved ASAP. And rightly so - look at the huge advantage to them at being the first to have an approved vaccine.
All of these companies are going to be running a raft of follow-up studies to try to "expand" their label - to try to make grow the market share for their product. Obviously this is a really unique situation - what's going to convince governments to pick their vaccine over another in this environment? Availability seems to be the key limiting factor at the moment, but then what? Stability data maybe? I would argue that after availability, price is probably the biggest factor.
What sort of training is needed?
A nine-dart finish would go a long way 😉 . Sorry late and I'm still working!
Pal is a paramedic he's been told he's not priority, meanwhile hospital management, who work in offices, have been jagged.
Caher
Full Member
Are they roping in layman to help with the jabbing? What sort of training is needed?
We're roping in anyone who's motivated to help out. You're much more likely to be booking patients in or assisting the jabber by updating the patient records, but it's quite good fun and you might get free tea and biscuits all day long 😁
It’s been a moral dilemma for someone about 6ft from me this evening
Having read your full disclosure, I'm unsure as to what you perceive is the moral dilemma
when they said that they expect to vaccinate all adults by Sept, is that 16+ or 18+
My (nearly 17yo) daughter works in a supermarket, her friend in a care home alongside their college work, both (particularly her friend) I think should be eventually done but not sure on the licensing.
Having read your full disclosure, I’m unsure as to what you perceive is the moral dilemma
Not mine but hers.....that whilst she works in the industry she is neither a front line worker more vulnerable to catching it or transmitting it. And will not be in any risk of meeting physically someone who has or will step into a care home any time in the next 6 months. That jabbing her is not a useful way to soak up unused vaccines refused by others (the number of residents and care workers turning it down is alarming) but a programmed in use of resource.
But on the other hand she performs a vital role for the company that runs the care homes; one they would be stuffed without. But her risk of getting infected is miniscule (due to wfh, where we live and how we live).
She's gone with the flow and gone for it - on the logic that if she doesn't there is more risk of an unused dose currently against her name going to waste.
I heard “over 18s” when the BBC reported it Jon… but it’s nothing firm… they don’t really know where the programme will be at that far ahead… they might be down to A-level aged teens by then, or they might still be on people in the their early 30s… I wouldn’t expect any target to be firm.
…she performs a vital role for the company that runs the care homes; one they would be stuffed without.
Well there you go. Just take it.
the number of residents and care workers turning it down is alarming
Interested by 2 points, how many are turning it down as I'd have thought with the care homes being hard hit they'd be strong supporters and possibly a bit more receptive to the scientists than general population.
Second - is this an area where the sector should be enforcing No jab / No job
Uptake at our vaccine centre is an alarming 50%. However, we’re just getting through the really elderly and we’re reassuring ourselves* that it will pick up once we start to get into lower age groups ( who have access to smart phones)
* only slightly panicking
A reasonable expectation of a reduction in transmission. Especially if they are bank staff who move between homes. A PHE study found that homes with such bank staff were six times more likely to have a COVID outbreak than those without.
Mrs NBITF has been carrying out testing in care homes and commented when I read that stat to her that every care home has had at least one bank staff who has claimed they don't get tested cos they're 'only bank staff'.
Nick, is that no shows, or rejections, or just no idea if they received the communication?
Nobeer… that is terrifying.
There will surely be many instances, given the cold train limitations, where the alternative will be shots going to waste – drag in passers-by and cosh them if necessary.
It seems to be the only real success story we have going for us at the moment, let’s just stick any excess in anyone who’s near.
I'm very much of this view - moral compasses are great, but wasting a shot is criminal. I believe there's a song in Hamilton about just this issue....
I'm not surprised there has been a lower than hoped uptake from the over 80s - many will simply struggle to make appointments, there will be a lot of mop up required.
Very interesting discussion to be had about sectors where "no jab, no job" could be argued for (and against)
@kelvin, it’s booked appointments. We have slots available today and over 200 tomorrow. Our DNA rate yesterday was 11%!
haven’t spoken to our pts, so couldn’t tell you why folk aren’t coming, but I’ll assume in the absence of any other info that we’re not an outlier.
Second – is this an area where the sector should be enforcing No jab / No job
Not yet legal (for current employees) but it's a strong possibility it's coming down the line.
And residents - you'd have thought. But some are not necessarily of sound mind and don't have the reassurance of a relative to make the decision with them. Might not even be aware of the pandemic and nasty nurse coming at them with a painful jab is a no by default.
We have slots available today and over 200 tomorrow. Our DNA rate yesterday was 11%!
Where are you? I can start driving in five minutes! 🙂
What kind of backup plan do you have to make sure doses and slots aren't wasted? Do you have a 'reserve list' of willing folk who'll drop everything to get down there?
Nobeer… that is terrifying.
Indeed. One of her work colleagues yesterday said that as she was off on leave next week, she wouldn't have to do her twice weekly lateral flow tests.
Some folk are just completely on another planet.
Scary stuff - how does the booking of slots and no-shows compare to the usual flu vaccination programme in the winter?
I went before Christmas to ours - and mid-morning found an empty room with 15 nurse stations, receptionists etc with myself and an elderly gent the only customers. I had been called less than an hour before to see if I would attend as I was connected to a vulnerable person (mrs_OAB). It seemed very undersubscribed.
What kind of backup plan do you have to make sure doses and slots aren’t wasted? Do you have a ‘reserve list’ of willing folk who’ll drop everything to get down there?
you think there’s a plan?
there’s not a lot we can really do to avoid DNAs. 11% is higher than I expected, but we overbook slots to allow for it. Is there a list of willing arms? I’d love to have such a thing, but in reality, I don’t have the capacity at practice level to devote staff resources to phoning all my pats and asking them that question, and then organising ourselves again to ask them at short notice to go to the centre , it’s not something we can do really. Our plan is to roll out the appoints to lower and lower age groups
Everyday I learn something new (and shocking).
When I had my flu jab, the surgery called at 4.30pm and I was jabbed by 7pm same day. Our health service is amazing.
I too would happily be on a list to jump if the chance came, if someone didn't/couldn't turn up.
Once again can I thank all the NHS staff and scientists on this thread (and others involved in keeping us up to date with real information). You're all mahoosivly amazballs. x
Mrs NBITF day job is in a clinic that carries out sight saving procedures on a daily basis, you would not believe the amount of no shows they have.
It's not all about anti-vaxxers or conspiracy believers, some folk are just useless at life.
When I had my flu jab, the surgery called at 4.30pm and I was jabbed by 7pm same day. Our health service is amazing.
Seem to remember the surgery sent a text saying "spaces available this afternoon, phone to get one". Had an appointment 2 hours later. Proper production line, two queuing in reception being ordered to remove as many outer garments as possible to speed the process, then called in one by one, sleeve up, no chit chat, jab, shown to the exit door. Brilliant service.
If that's what's happening with no shows they should have had an app or something that people could register for where it pings you if there's a local clinic sat waiting for someone that hasn't shown up. There's a huge amount of people who can and would attend at the drop of a hat to fill a free space.
It's not just whether the vaccine has to be discarded at the end of a day if it's not used, it's the wasted person-hours of people sat there waiting to give a jab and having nothing to do for an hour because there's nobody to receive it.
If the Govt would allow us to have the AZ vaccine at practice level we could probably offer that service again. Certainly we could get to our housebound pts more swiftly
Our Covid Vaccine hub is a collaboration of 6 other practices and is being used by another 3 more. We don’t know when we’re likely to get vaccine, we don’t know which vaccine we’ll get, and we have to share what vaccine we do get amongst the pt list of all 9 practices. It all takes a huge amount of coordination. Until we get to know the basics of the logistics we’re still feeling out way
bear with, while we get organised....
The logistics is something I keep having to talk to my mum about. She is in the east of England who seem to be massively behind other areas, but I have to keep pointing out that the logistics are not that simple and they can't just chuck a box or 2 in the post and expect it to just happen at the surgeries.
It does amaze me that they are insisting on centralised centres though. To me pharmacies and gp's would be the most obvious of they have the capacity as they are local and know their area
In the mean time, Im ready willing and able to start my vaccinator job. After completing my e-learning the NHS started my background checks 2 weeks ago and nothing heard yet....
Each step is do one thing, then wait for weeks. Nothing runs in parallel. Colleagues of mine completed the online video assessment 3 weeks ago and have heard nothing. I think the limiting factor is vaccine availability at the moment, but soon we will have doses available but no staff due to ridiculously late/slow recruitment. Seeing as we are paid be shift, this should have been done last year with people ready to go.
My (East Sussex) centralised vaccination point (6 surgeries) has been set up with cold storage for the Pfizer vaccine. If using AZ then individual surgeries makes more sense I guess.
I'm all for offering it to anyone rather than waste it, but what happens when they are due their second shot? Will they be taking away the first shot from someone who (it has been determined) is in greater need?
There’s a huge amount of people who can and would attend at the drop of a hat to fill a free space.
I'd put my shoes on and jump on a bike at any point, any day, if there was a locally available dose going spare.
what happens when they are due their second shot?
Like most people... they'll have it delayed to make way for others to have the first dose.
Heres a question I’ve been musing over:
Will the benefit of the vaccination, be offset by behavioural effect of having been vaccinated?
Those who are over 70 currently have a ~1.8% of catching Covid, and if they do it’s a ~30% chance of death
From 30,000 daily cases that turns into ~750 daily deaths
However, a lot of people in this group will shielding and protecting themselves.
But post vaccine those rates will change. All of the questions about “when can I give my mum a hug”, “can the grandkids visit”, and wanting to get back to “normal” come up.
Behaviours will change and mixing in the community will increase within that age group.
Lets say that for that group the increased mixing increases the chance of catching Covid to 5%, similar to the lower age groups.
But the vaccination decreases the probability of death by 70%, and falls to 9%
From 30,000 daily cases that results in ~660 deaths
The quality of life increases for those people, but we roughly end back at the same position?
Behaviours will change and mixing in the community will increase within that age group.
Government messaging again. They have said that behaviours shouldn't change yet, even for those who have had two doses. But in parallel do seem to imply otherwise.
Will the benefit of the vaccination, be offset by behavioural effect of having been vaccinated?
Judging by the behaviour of my parents and their friends it's an issue that will have to be addressed immediately. Lots of them think that once they've had the first vaccine dose they will be able to go see the grandkids, book a foreign holiday and generally just get on with things. A few of us have tried to explain that they need the second dose to be fully protected and even then it'll take a bit of time afterwards to work fully. They point blank refuse to believe that they will still be a possible risk to spreading it to others, they genuinely think it'll be a magic bullet. I know of one couple who have booked two cruises this year, one in May and one in September, even though they are yet to have their vaccines.
The behavioural changes after vaccination is the thing that worries me the most.
Apparently holiday bookings are up in the priority groups and some of my mum's friends are openly talking about going back to normal one they have had it.
Thankfully my mum is aware enough that she won't be joining them
I've been thinking the same too. Oldies in the community at large are still getting it but that's with significant levels of social withdrawal. Post vaccine if we start snorting and licking each other's saliva again but the oldies are not 100% immune (because they will never be jab or no jab) there'll still be casualties. I suppose the only other factor is that apparently those with the vaccine tend not to get as ill when they get it which maybe is as big an improvement as the not getting it at all.
Update - Mrs C has returned post jab. Prior to jabbing she was told to make sure she didn't let on to the jabber that she was not front line when she went in the room. So the firm know (or think they know) they are being naughty. Too late now regardless.
My Mrs and I were chatting about this yesterday - not so much regarding the current position, but more when it gets down to the over-50s. At some point restrictions will be lifted but the virus will still be in circulation. There could be a time when there will have to be different rules/guidance depending on whether or not you've been vaccinated. I can see that causing a bit of resentment amongst younger folk.
Seen that the ONS is reporting that about 10% of people in the UK are showing antibodies, implying an infection of Covid. Given that roughly 0.1% of the population has died of Covid. Does this actually mean the UK IFR is 1%?
i.e.
If there were 1000 people in the UK, then 100 people would have caught it, and of those 1000 people 1 person has died (which is 1% of the 100 that caught it).
I guess the bit that might be missing is a larger number have caught it but they're not showing anti bodies?
I can see that causing a bit of resentment amongst younger folk.
Totally. You've lost your job, been restricted in what you can do for a virus that has little impact on your generation then suddenly the oldies with their triple lock pensions are back to normal and you are still bolloxed with nothing but the joy of knowing when you do work again you'll be the one paying for it all (in addition to working 10 years longer than the current oldies ever had to that was already set in stone) in a post brexit world you didn't want but they did.
It could make you a tiny bit bitter.
care home has had at least one bank staff who has claimed they don’t get tested cos they’re ‘only bank staff’.
That's a whoosh moment for someone isn't it? These are probably some of the most significant superspreaders in the community. I am just grateful that my FIL has had the first dose, as he has home care two times per day from such a Bank staff (a weekly tested one).
Our DNA rate yesterday was 11%!
Never ascribe to maliciousness that which can be explained by incompetence. People clearly need to prioritise, and connect their actions now with eventual outcome for the community later. That's pretty tough for most.
some folk are just useless at life.
I think sums it up!
Totally. You’ve lost your job, been restricted in what you can do for a virus that has little impact on your generation then suddenly the oldies with their triple lock pensions are back to normal and you are still bolloxed with nothing but the joy of knowing when you do work again you’ll be the one paying for it all (in addition to working 10 years longer than the current oldies ever had to that was already set in stone) in a post brexit world you didn’t want but they did.
It could make you a tiny bit bitter.
Would have been much better if they could have been left to freely spread the vaccine to their elders - big drop in ongoing pension and health care costs, plus all those inheritances coming through....