Your post doesn't contain anything approaching the objective truth. It's conspiracy theory-esque nonsense and the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that what BoJo is doing now is somehow for his cynical self interest or for some shadowy operators.
He has a very, very hard job. As others have alluded to I wouldn't want his job now for all the tea in China.
Genuine question for the bozza bashers, can you actually imagine any of the alternatives doing a better (different) job?
Jezza would have established a committee to engage in a consultation exercise to report back in 6 months (which we all know means 12) but suspended democracy and declared Marshall law in the meantime 😂
Universities are acting now… open days cancelled for my eldest. Sporting bodies are acting. Waiting for the government to act isn’t going to happen. Of course, they could well be counting on organisations not waiting for them. Classic Dom.
Genuine question for the bozza bashers, can you actually imagine any of the alternatives doing a better (different) job?
Hunt was the only other realistic leadership candidate and putative PM… and from what he has been saying, yes, I think he would have been acting differently.
Your post doesn’t contain anything approaching the objective truth. It’s conspiracy theory-esque nonsense and the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that what BoJo is doing now is somehow for his cynical self interest or for some shadowy operators.
He has a very, very hard job. As others have alluded to I wouldn’t want his job now for all the tea in China.
I'm no fan of Boris, but very much this. As far as I can tell our Government are handling this as well or better than all the the other democratic governments.
All those countries on lock down will have to maintain lock down until a vaccine is available, or their rates will just shoot up again. So, callous as it may seem, it’s not impossible that the UK approach is the right one.
Numbers in Asia seem to be stabilising or improving, looking back over the last week.
It might be personal prejudices, but Vallance's approach seems a bit Mengeles-like to me.
Currently setting up Microsoft teams for all my senior pupils and my department are all doing the same. Order to drop everything and get on with that came in this morning at 10am, so draw your own conclusions from that....
why would anyone trust someone who has such a public history of lying?
What's your alternative? Start a revolution and overthrow the government? Barricade schools closed yourself? Run about screaming that we're all going to die?
It must be absolutely exhausting assuming bad intent for things where there (probably) is none.
What’s your alternative?
You can see what the alternatives are are… organisations taking unprecedented measures to reduce social contact without waiting for instructions or advice to do so coming from the government.
why would you trust a government
It's not about my trust in boris and his blue brigade to do what's best for me*. It's about the fact there is zero available alternative, there's no conclusive data and what ever response they pick it's bluster and a gamble at the moment.
Do I trust boris to bluster, darn tootin I do.
Do I trust him to dispassionately gamble my life in the hope he's re-elected next time? Oh yes.
Do I think he's dumb enough to think his long term goals a served by mass panic, death and destruction? No, not at all.
Ultimately you're convinced boris is wrong because you don't like boris, you don't like the tories and even if he personally developed the cure tonight, administered it to everyone tomorrow you'd be complaining he didn't do it quick enough, he is responsible for the deaths of 10 people and a dispicable human being for it.
*me being figurative, obviously what's best for me isn't the same as what's best except by coincidence.
He has a very, very hard job. As others have alluded to I wouldn’t want his job now for all the tea in China.
I wonder if even Boris wants Boris's job right now.
He did after all ride in on a ticket of horse poo populism with zero substance and a track record of flim flam hand wavey promises that either don't materialise or spectacularly fail. Competent handling of an actual crisis isn't particularly prevalent on his CV.
So you accuse me of making stuff up then change the subject when I challenge you on it?
please highlight what conspiracy theory(esque) stuff I posted?
I dont for a minute think Johnson wants to kill loads of people, I dont think that the Tories wanted to kill loads of people
I absolutely believe that they were driven by ideology of austerity that made it possible for them to ignore any warnings, I also think that there was enough detachment that dumping the worst on those at the bottom was just not a worry for them
But mostly I believe theyre guilty of hubris & arrogance
At no point have I said ignore government advice, but its perfectly right for me to criticise any failings in their approach, in my position as a keyboard expert just like all of us on here
Which would explain the current policy which appears to be aimed at maximising the spread of the virus without actually admitting that’s what they are trying to do.
I find this hard to believe, as a shadow policy of 'sharpening the curve' would be leaked pretty quickly.
However, I also don't fully understand the thinking of not attempting to isolate the most vulnerable groups now, particularly the elderly in care homes or those with significant co-morbidity. This is not a massively economically or socially active group, and they are the most likely to be in need of ICU. I understand that restrictions on their movement and visitors is a pain in the ass, but again, pushing some of these cases back even by a couple of months could be significant.
Anyone who works with models knows that the outcome is heavily dependent on the quality of the data you put in and the assumptions you make about that data and, in this case, human behaviours.
Given that we're plucking a figure out of the air for likely community cases (10,000), don't appear to have done any actual community sampling (that we know of), I wonder how confident they can be in the (non) actions they are recommending.
It must be absolutely exhausting assuming bad intent for things where there (probably) is none.
I suspect that Kimbers' point is less about outright lies fro the sheer fun of it, but more about misdirection, partial truths and the gradual reveal of a plan rahter than the upfront exposition of a goal and strategy to get there.
I understand that its unlikely that there's somebody sitting there with a fully formed dcoument in Project, and that plans need to be flexible, but there also needs to be greater confidence in the public's ability to take on, understand and prepare for situations more than 24 hours in advance.
And, politics aside, Johnson does have (lots of) previous for half baked and unsound proposals and plans, so to question and challenge what's behind this particular curtain is fair and right.
People may indeed die in large numbers, and thats something we need to prepare for, but we need to address the far more pressing issue...
No football!
please point out what is untrue in my post, objective or not?
Boris has a long career. You've taken a select list of things, grossly oversimplified them and spotted some kind of pattern, assigned agency to them and then reached a conclusion that "boris only lies" then applied that to an event the likes of which we have never seen in modern times. It is so flawed and bias ridden that it's pointless dissecting each of the individual untruths and over simplifications you made. Again, the burden of proof is with you to demonstrate that Boris is lying in his cynical self interest in the case. There is no parallel to draw between someone lying about an affair and crafting a conspiracy to kill us all for some undefined purpose.
People may indeed die in large numbers, and thats something we need to prepare for, but we need to address the far more pressing issue…
No football!
As a United fan, you are best placed to advise on how to get through months of tedium and disappointment.
where did I say he was crafting a conspiracy to kill us all?
you 'cant be bothered' to counter my 'untruths' sounds like you know they arent untruths but dont want to back down?
and if you are telling me that you think Johnson is an honest & trustworthy person, either in his private life, as a journalist or a polictician, then Im sorry but I think you are being very naive
Mrs F had to get the train today - I've just asked her if it was busy. We normally travel in the car together, but work has told a number of us to work from home to test the systems.
She managed a seat, but the station was fairly quiet, but the tram was still rammed in Manchester.
MIL's nursing home has stopped all visitors.
Right, it's nearly lunch, the sun is shining, I'm off to get the MTB out.
There is no parallel to draw between someone lying about an affair and crafting a conspiracy to kill us all for some undefined purpose.
Strawman alert. No one has said he trying to kill anyone. Not even conspiring to get them beaten up.
particularly the elderly in care homes or those with significant co-morbidity. This is not a massively economically or socially active group,
They're not massively anything active. The population of STW aside, I doubt most old people in the UK see anyone not directly related to their care more than once a week. They're isolated by life already.
Those two scientist blokes either side of Boris seemed pretty convincing. What makes you think our science isn’t better than some others and we are on the right track?
Also, other countries have 'scientist blokes' too. I bet they are 'convincing' as well. Yet the majority of other countries are doing things markedly differently to us.
Expect scrutiny if you are an outlier on something as significant and immediate as this.
As a United fan, you are best placed to advise on how to get through months of tedium and disappointment.
Indeed. We'd actually managed to hit a bit of form of late though Martin. It had become almost entertaining
On the plus side, its extended the scousers 30 year wait...
#everycloud 😂
I think the burden of proof goes to prove Boris isn't lying. The null hypothesis is that anything he says is based on lying self-interest and not on helping others.
In other news, looks like my girlfriend's shop is going to the wall. Small clothing boutique. No customers, no cash reserves. Laying off 1 of their 4 staff today and if no grant relief by the end of the month they'll have to shut down due to cashflow.
They’re isolated by life already.
Except from visitors to their care homes. The experience from Washington State shows exactly how a single infection in a care home can create a massive burden on health services within days.
Plus, a glance around the main car park in my town will reveal that the buggers, even the half-dead ones, are still very much out and about.
If ever there was an obvious explanation as to the government’s response to this differs to other countries, I think that we should consider this chart;
Without commenting on the rights or wrongs of the decision, it appears to simply be an ideologically driven, economics over humanity based strategy. The people that make up engine of the economy won’t die (much), and the demographic that is disproportionately affected will be net recipients from the economy and welfare state rather than contributors.
It’s clearly in line with hardline Tory ideology. I apologise profusely for ‘politicising’ the thread, but I feel that it must be stated.
I think I’m probably going nuts, but does anyone on here know a single person who has contracted this virus? Or even know anyone who knows anyone??
the only evidence I’ve seen of it are empty shelves in shops caused by press over-reaction.
Everything else is just hearsay. People seem to have gone * hysterical. And yet..?
Whilst the virus is obviously out there and a threat I have to agree with that, I think it's just been hyped out of all proportion, it doesn't help that a lot of the general public are just brain dead sheep hence going all zombie apocalypse and panic buying everything.
I think it's probably been around for longer than we think, I know a lot of fit and healthy people that had "flu" back in December that hit them hard for weeks. Wasn't there something like a 25% increase over the previous year?
Much as I think Boris is a massive * I think the government has got it right by trying to delay things rather than going full shutdown of everything. I reckon the schools will close on Friday into the Easter holidays 😉 in the hope keeping all the little disease spreaders away from each other slows it down a bit.
Not good news ygh, they won't be the last and I get the very depressing feeling they won't even be in the minority in 6 months time.
My point is that at the moment trust in the government is key
why would anyone trust someone who has such a public history of lying?
I don't trust Boris an inch, for all the reasons quoted.
I am prepared to trust the medical and scientific advisors he has pinned his plan on, rather than what uninformed individuals on the internet think will protect them. They seem to think that this is the least worst option for the wider population right now. Which is all we can hope for.
The political conspiracy theorists are really spoiling what has been an interesting thread up till recently
There is no parallel to draw between someone lying about an affair and crafting a conspiracy to kill us all for some undefined purpose.
Which would be an excellent point except for the teensy weensy fact that kimbers didn't do that.
Better luck next time with the strawmannery, but you really need to craft it better over a longer period, to make it seem like it was there all along.
Have a look at Vote Leave if you want to see it done properly.
Couple of blokes at work have had texts off their Teacher wives - schools preparing to shut down from next Friday.
Whilst the virus is obviously out there and a threat I have to agree with that, I think it’s just been hyped out of all proportion,
When folk like Richard Hatchett start describing it as the most frightening disease he's ever come across, I'm not sure that's artificial hype.
Would be an epic bit of 'nudge' if part of the strategy at the moment was getting better responsiveness from the public to self isolate/take extra precautions as a contrary response to the government not telling them to!
either:
Gov: please lock yourselves away and don't talk to anyone except on your disinfected phone
Public: no way! massive over-reaction, it's just flu!
Or:
Gov: don't do anything just yet
Public: you can't tell me what to do! I'm locking myself away right now!
I think it’s probably been around for longer than we think, I know a lot of fit and healthy people that had “flu” back in December that hit them hard for weeks. Wasn’t there something like a 25% increase over the previous year?
@tomd
please point out what is untrue in my post, objective or not?
trust a government who ignored all warnings & pushed through austerity
This government hasn't pushed through austerity. It seems to be attempting the opposite.
Couple of blokes at work have had texts off their Teacher wives – schools preparing to shut down from next Friday
I call BS on that, next Friday is the start of Easter hols and every teacher has been prepping for that since 6th of January
9 minutes in.... "The children cried"
FFS. Did they, really? Because of their confirmation?
The political conspiracy theorists are really spoiling what has been an interesting thread up till recently
Im always one to prefer cock-up over conspiracy, (as Grayling isnt in charge of the covid response) in the Tory case most likely callousness over conspiracy
I think its simply that with the NHS & social care stretched so far by a decade of austerity (people were already dying in NHS corridors this year & its been a mild winter) that theres very little room for them to manouvre, very tough decisions being made now & will have to be made in hospitals regards who gets treatment
IMHO COBRA should have been convened earlier, when Johnson was making jokes about handwashing, NHS111 has been completely overwhelmed, which is why the containment phase seems to have ended so quickly, Id like to think that things are moving better now.
As long as Johnson is listening to scientists rather than his chief advisor
remember that Cummings has a history of misunderstanding & misusing science for his own agenda https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5095087/
I call BS on that, next Friday is the start of Easter hols and every teacher has been prepping for that since 6th of January
not scheduled to finish until the 27th in devon.
remember that Cummings has a history of misunderstanding & misusing science for his own agenda
I didn't realise he was one of our big hitters
If ever there was an obvious explanation as to the government’s response to this differs to other countries, I think that we should consider this chart;
Without commenting on the rights or wrongs of the decision, it appears to simply be an ideologically driven, economics over humanity based strategy. The people that make up engine of the economy won’t die (much), and the demographic that is disproportionately affected will be net recipients from the economy and welfare state rather than contributors.
It’s clearly in line with hardline Tory ideology. I apologise profusely for ‘politicising’ the thread, but I feel that it must be stated.
I highly doubt that a few less pensioners is worth the damage done to the economy already...
Sorry to hear your news yourguitarhero. We lost our business during the chaos that followed the banking crash. The thing that was striking then was the shear speed of it. One minute you've got a decent ongoing business, the economy slows, then stops, the next minute it's all imploded and you're dealing with the aftermath.
I think we're going to see a hell of a lot of it in the coming months, and having been there myself, I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Good luck fella.
