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Just had my second AZ at 7 weeks, local walk in centre, absolutely empty, 20 minutes door to door (including 10 minutes in the car). Local FaceAche group seems to be moderated by an anti-vaccer who keeps deleting peoples posts about it. We're in a high case area, why wouldn't you rock up and get jabbed. Need to cancel my second scheduled for 5 weeks time now.
AZ1 I felt a bit rough for 24 hrs but not much compared with others, hoping this one will be even easier.
Looks like the only change in Wales for the next four weeks is relaxing of wedding rules... Guess I'm postponing my visit to stay with family I haven't seen since last July again.
We've just had some kids of old friends cancel their wedding again. Despite the lifting of the 30 people limit, in practice, the venue still has to follow COVID safe rules so a non-starter for them. Something to look forward to in 2022 now I guess.
Looks like the only change in Wales for the next four weeks is relaxing of wedding rules… Guess I’m postponing my visit to stay with family I haven’t seen since last July again.
Sorry to hear that, if they haven't used all their 'allocation' we are allowed to follow extended households with 2 other households.
Since we're sharing AZ anecdotes - my first jab had me feeling like I had flu for about 1h (fell out of bed, couldn't move off floor, wracked with shivers etc)! Fell asleep and felt fine (ish) next day. Second job - no ill effects whatsoever - I even got a Strava KOM back the next day I'd been chasing for months...
Everyone I know had much less severe reactions to second AZ jab than first (I work in a factory where entire workforce had opportunity to be vaccinated).
The EU has lost its legal case against AstraZeneca:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/astrazenca-eu-vaccine-supply-b1868514.html
Can someone explain to me vaccine efficacy
My understanding is that there are a number of measures, efficacy against infection, symptomatic illness, hospitalisation and death. For phizer the efficacy of each of these appear to be about 90%, which as my understanding goes, means for every 10 unvaccinated people who contract the virus only one vaccinated person will get it (assuming same exposure risk), and for every ten unvaccinated folks who contract the virus and show symptoms, only one vaccinated person will.
If that’s correct , by my calculations assuming same exposure risk, a vaccinated person is around 100 times less likely to contract covid and show symptoms than an unvaccinated person. And roughly a thousand times less likely to end up in hospital.
Is that correct, or have I misunderstood?
Ta
They don't compound together like that.
Taking AZ as the example... it's ~60% effective against symptomatic illness after two jabs, ~90% against hospitalisation. Both figures are based on considering everyone, the second isn't ignoring those that don't have symptoms.
On top of that, your figures don't make any sense to me at all, I'm afraid. Where does the "one hundred times" come from?
The EU has lost its legal case against AstraZeneca:
I think I read it as, yes the EU lost the case but AZ now has an obligation to supply with deadlines but at dramatically reduced quantities for those deadlines which should all be manageable from EU supply chains?
On top of that, your figures don’t make any sense to me at all, I’m afraid. Where does the “one hundred times” come from?
10 x as likely to contract the virus, then 10 x as likely to show symptoms once you do contract it.
As I said that may be way off the mark however
I’m struggling to see how there isn’t some kind of compound affect if it drastically reduces the likelihood of you getting it in first place, and also drastically reduces likelihood of you getting particularly ill if you do end up getting it.
Oh, the podcast bikeforfreedom (whoever they are) is sharing has been very popular with the anti-vax “I found the truth on the dark web” people, I’ve seen it shared a lot in those circles.
@Kelvin have you actually listened to it? Can you explain what’s wrong with the opinions and data?
Also any reason to completely shoot down everything?
And to label anyone with alternative opinions an anti-vaxer or conspiracy person is a bit weak.
And to label anyone with alternative opinions an anti-vaxer or conspiracy person is a bit weak.
Or there's an Anti-anti-vaxer conspiracy....🤔
Makes you think
I'll go do my own research
In other news the BBC is reporting new phe data showing 75% protection from phizer or az jab against hospitalisation, 90% protection with two jabs. On pm just now.
So just about identical numbers to the French ones for PCR test results in Les Landes where Delta is present, Del. 90% protection from having PCR test measuable levels of virus and also 90% protection from hospitalisation from two jabs. That's good news if the phe results are for a time period and area where the Delta variant is dominant.
reassuring. 👍
Can you explain what’s wrong with the opinions and data?
Some reading on the Byram Bridle theory on the spike protein being toxic. That podcast seems to be a mix of this plus investors of alternative treatments who are not happy all the focus is on vaccines.
@tjagain vaccine efficacy is relatively straightforward. In pivotal trials it is one minus the relative risk of symptomatic infection. Basically recruit 40k subjects. Dose half on vaccine and half a placebo. Hope for 200 symptomatic infection events (this number is important). If the split is about 66/133 then you win. That’s because the efficacy is 1 - (66/20000)/(133/20000) = 0.51 or 51%
Why 200? Well a vaccine can only be approved if the VE is bigger than 50% (sorry cureVac) AND the lower confidence limit for the effect is bigger than 30%. The 200 events with that split gets the lower limit over the magic 30%
The mRNA vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna were more like 10/190. A massive effect.
The efficacy produced by PHE reported today for keeping out of hospital is from monitoring records data and comparing histories of vaccinated and Unvaccinated after they test positive by pcr. It’s not a pure placebo control.
Is Curevac efficacy lower because of the Delta variant, or just because it’s not as good?
Dose would be my first guess. They will have clinical Phase 1 data comparing immunogenicity with convalescent sera, of course (like all the others). Variant is perhaps one explanation, but I think I'd be looking at dose and adjuvant for boosting effect first. I have not seen the data - but I am sure the Phase 1 will be on MedrXiv by now.
On the point of hospitalisation and deaths. These are pretty rare events in the vaccine trials. 200 events (symptomatic infections) is when you pull the trial plug. If 5% go to hospital, then that's really only 10 people. Deaths will then be rarer still (maybe 1-2). So the evidence for the AZ efficacy in preventing morbidity and mortality against the South Africa variant was pretty poor (and concerning). The protection against the delta variant is welcome. We should not take such protection for granted.
Rebooked my az dose 2 for Monday, that's 10 weeks. First knocked me out for about 24 hours then ok again, hopefully 2nd wont be as bad, my wife had less reaction to the 2nd.
This is of course dependent on the all clear from yesterday's tonsil tickle test. 3 year old developed a fever Thursday night so I took her for a PCR yesterday and since I'd felt a bit headachy and runny nose and my daughter's nursery was an epicenter for Delta variant here in South London I thought I best do one too.
Hoping to visit mum tomorrow too.... If the results come back with good news.
If I was conducting a social gathering test like a concert or a football match, I would be be informing all participants beforehand that I would be introducing a known quantity of Covid positive participants in there with them. PCR testing several days before, quarantine, event, quarantine, another PCR test to see how many were now infected.
The protocol being used for these various test events sounds nothing like this from what I've read/seen and is going to horribly skew the results towards everything is safe, give us "Freedom Day" ASAP.
I would be introducing a known quantity of Covid positive participants in there with them. PCR testing several days before, quarantine, event, quarantine, another PCR test to see how many were now infected.
You'd never get ethics approval for that trial. A company called hVIVO have recently completed their first COVID challenge study in healthy subjects. They give a small but controlled innoculumm, test daily to look for infection, follow closely and give rescue medication.
The meetings protocol is basically see if we can monitor and control.
And negative, yay. Although just heard on the radio that all of Lambeth is being urged to surge test for Delta variant. I'm just outside
You’d never get ethics approval for that trial
I totally get the ethics why you can't introduce the virus to these test events, but as I understand it, all they are effectively testing is that a big group of people who test negative before an event are still testing negative afterwards? Ethically, we can't test how easily it might be caught at such events
Remember a negative test doesn't mean you haven't got it. So the test events show testing etc can be accurate enough to keep Transmission low
As above, I can see the ethics stance, but on the other hand we are being told "Freedom Day" is a month today and that generally the unvaccinated young will be fine because the young don't get ill or die from Covid.
I believe most of these test events are simply using the 30min rapid flow tests, not PCR tests, so some people might well get false positive results and be let in. But if the test results are accurate, Covid negative participicants don't spontaneously develop Covid if they aren't exposed to Covid.
And when some test positive after the event, if they weren't PCR tested just before the event and then quarantined before entry, how can anything meaningful about Covid spread at such events be deduced?
Just before Covid really kicked off in England we had the Cheltenham horse racing and Athletico Madrid football fans at Anfield, Stereophonics held a concert in Cardiff etc. That strain was far less transmittable than Delta.
Besides a brief period last summer where Royal Mail allowed voluntary van sharing, we haven't van shared officially for ~15 months. The two colleagues I van shared with in March '20, for approx 8 periods of ~5mins on each shift, both isolated for Covid symptoms ~5 days later after I came home to find my partner with a continuous cough and so I began isolating. Yet with a more transmittable strain around, Royal Mail intend to enforce van sharing by simply having the van windows open from 19th July unless restrictions remain, with a wide range of staff ages (and so in different stages of vaccination) and no intention presently to make sure you only share a van with one other individual. Without taking account of annual leave personnel changes, this means my potential "chain of infection" van share colleagues is 8+ colleagues. Absolute madness.
I believe most of these test events are simply using the 30min rapid flow tests, not PCR tests, so some people might well get false positive results and be let in. But if the test results are accurate, Covid negative participicants don’t spontaneously develop Covid if they aren’t exposed to Covid.
Yes and no. Yes, everyone has to test negative by LFT but then also has to PCR before and after. That way they can look at transmission (part of the purpose, not just testing the infrastructure needed to run events)
It's not clear that the PCR also needs to be negative before they come in (I don't think so, from the link below) or what happens if they do get a positive PCR result once in, are they then removed from the event or left in so they can see how far it then goes. Is that ethically OK - I guess as long as the participants know that there may be Covid positive people present and go ahead then it's OK. Whereas deliberately seeding a few carriers into the event to see how far they can spread it......
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-57541794
Brazil, poor sods when does willfully ignoring science become criminal
Aaaaaaaaand Sydney is cattle-trucked.
A bloody limo driver from airport>quarantine wasn't vaccinated (he should have had the vaccine 6 months ago) and wasn't wearing mask. As a result we are getting lists of transmission venues almost hourly..... cinemas, department stores, even ikea. 8 confirmed cases so far - but thats going to grow pretty quickly I think.
It's the Delta variant too - and early reports suggest that several people have caught it via "fleeting" contact of only a few seconds with somebody who's infected. Hence my pessimism.
I had my first jab on Friday (Pfizer), and Mrs Batfink is having her's tomorrow. As soon as we could get an appt. They are now giving Pfizer to anyone under 60 and AZ to anyone older.
As per my previous posts - Vaccine hesitancy because of AZ safety fears, combined with no real feeling of danger, has left Australia significantly behind in terms of % vaccinated.
I'm off to buy toilet paper.
Ouch.
That's going to be interesting to see if it can be contained now it's started to spread, to see how well your T&T works.
As well as Aus has done (albeit vax program is an oddity) it was inevitable you'd get D at some point I think, but would have been better if it was much later than the vax program. I can't believe still only 3% when everything else seems to have been so well done.
Do you want us to send you Dido Harding to help co-ordinate?
Bad news Batfink.
A real test for your track and trace programme, let's hope its up to the task.
Sadly it may be the prompt to get the vaccination message across, but lets hope it can be brought under control.
Yeah - it’s all the boomers refusing to get vaccinated because they were/are holding out to be offered the “safer” Pfizer vaccine.
They’ve just announced that anyone under 60 can have the Pfizer vaccine now, so hopefully that’ll bump up the rates.
I’d be a bit more relaxed if this was happening after I’d had my second jab in A couple of weeks - but the universe seems to have other plans.
Re: Dido. Yeah, nah….
3% of the population vaccinated? Holy ****!
FULLY vaccinated
22.3% have had at least one dose (which is hardly sparkling either)
Sorry if this has already been discussed ,but is there any benefit/point in using a visor without a mask? I always thought they were just a bit of added protection when used with other PPE.
Thanks
The main idea with a visor is to stop aerosol getting into your eyes. By itself it has minimal protection.
Don't forget large scale mask wearing is about you not spreading to others. So I guess a well worn visor stops your breath hitting someone directly in front of you.
It is also a way for those who find masks medically unwearable to demonstrate they are thinking of others.
Thanks dantsw13.
We had a wee incident at work today where a member of staff (doesn't come in much) walked through an open plan office with just a visor. A few people got bothered by this and it went a bit full rant, with two of them stating they were not happy to share a space with the visor wearer. I know there are too many environment/space variables to consider but there has been a small group in another section flagged with track and trace recently so people are more sensitive this week. Good Monday start 😒
Just been for 2nd jab (az). Good to see the pharmacy doing a roaring trade with lots of younger adults in there for moderna. Looks like people are doing there bit.
Now, fingers crossed I don't feel rubbish for a day as I did last time.
It’s the Delta variant too – and early reports suggest that several people have caught it via “fleeting” contact of only a few seconds with somebody who’s infected. Hence my pessimism.
This is what we are being told via a few sources in Education - that Delta can transmit in under a minute and is more contagious to younger adults & children. I am waiting on WHO / UK Gov. / Scot. Gov / Welsh Gov. to actually publish some findings on this though - none so far on paper, but a few webinars or news snippets with health experts stating this.
Well... there was the issue of Hancock not passing on the data that shows this to other government departments... never mind informing us plebs sending our kids to school with the message that mask wearing, open windows and social distancing are no longer needed.
,but is there any benefit/point in using a visor without a mask?
This may be helpful:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/5.0022968
In summary, visors impede the initial spread of droplets after a sneeze or a cough, but, as you'd expect, they are still ejected and dispersed, just less violently. This virus is capable of transmission in an aerosol-like way, suspended in the air which is then circulated around an office, so the fewer aerosolised particles you send out, the lower the risk. So, unless they are incapable of wearing a mask, visors are a poor substitute.
Have we done "rumours" of summer holidays being allowed to amber countries if you are double jabbed...
seems a reasonable approach, obviously not 100% fool proof as vaccination not 100% effective...
...oh and your unvaccinated under 18 kids can go too.
So its purely political.
Is that not the system the EU are putting in place? Makes sense for us try and join in (without the press of government putting it that way, of course).
Countries using or preparing to use the EUDCC...
Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, The Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain
+ Sweden, Switzerland, Iceland, Norway
That's s a fair proportion of the countries you might need to travel to for work or family reasons (and, yes, eventually, a holiday, fingers crossed).
If you live in Wales you cant even have digital proof of your covid vaccinations.. You phone a number and they post you a certificate (can take up to 10 days for them to get around to posting it to you). I wonder if thats acceptable to travel in the EU?
I've already got the EU compatible Covid app on my phone which in theory will be valid everywhere in Europe from 1/7. It's just a QR code compatible with the EU system. I've also got given a paper copy with my second vaccination which has the QR code. However Madame's code doesn't work so there must be some bugs left to iron out.
Edit: she's had another go and it's worked so she's happy.
It’s the Delta variant too – and early reports suggest that several people have caught it via “fleeting” contact of only a few seconds with somebody who’s infected. Hence my pessimism.
This is what we are being told via a few sources in Education – that Delta can transmit in under a minute and is more contagious to younger adults & children. I am waiting on WHO / UK Gov. / Scot. Gov / Welsh Gov. to actually publish some findings on this though – none so far on paper, but a few webinars or news snippets with health experts stating this.
Well..... we have got have got the moment that it was transmitted between two individuals in Sydney on CCTV:
The footage shows two people briefly walk past each other while out shopping – both of them now infected with COVID-19.
"we actually have CCTV footage of the encounter and it is basically a crossover of individuals. They are clearly facing each other but it is literally someone moving across from each other for a moment, close, but momentary"
Hence my pessimism. Today's numbers are to be announced soon - but there were only 2 new cases yesterday, bringing the total "Bondi" cluster up to 11.
In case anyone is interested, this is what NSW's track-and-trace output looks like: link
There is a map, but check out the tables half way down the page.
Bondi Junction Event Cinemas Bondi Junction 500 Oxford Street
1:30pm to 4pm on Sunday 13 June 2021Anyone who attended the 1:45pm Screening of Hitman's Wife's Bodyguard in Cinema 1 is a close contact and must immediately get tested and self-isolate for 14 days regardless of the result.
Anyone who attended any other screening at the cinema during this time is a casual contact and must get tested and self-isolate until they receive a negative result. You should continue to monitor for symptoms and if any symptoms occur, get tested again.
Imagine getting covid as a result of going to see THAT!
Hence my pessimism. Today’s numbers are to be announced soon – but there were only 2 new cases yesterday, bringing the total “Bondi” cluster up to 11.
Fark. NSW Premier has just been on telly. 10 new cases today - cluster now at 21.
Although it sounds like 8 of these are household contacts of previously diagnosed cases, and were already in isolation.
One new one is a primary school student in the Bondi area...... school is currently being evacuated, all students and family members to go and get tested.
The other case seems to have caught it from the local Westfield - a shop assistant. Sounds like they are asking anyone that went to that shopping centre within the window of a few days to get tested.
Masks now mandatory indoors (we haven't been wearing masks for several months now) for the next week, but no other restrictions yet.
Pfffff - Well done Gladys (NSW premier) - doing a great job, and it's not often you get to say that about a career politician.
@batfink and an LNP one at that! 🙂
We had similar panic in Qld a couple of weeks' ago when the numpties from Melbourne brought Covid up to my neck of the woods.
I was at the hospital where they'd tested positive the day before when the results came through and staff were just starting to panic. Within an hour the Premier was on TV and the tracing lists were being published. Staff were getting pulled into contact tracing and our vax clinic queues began to swell - such that we couldn't cope. There really needs to be big outdoor walk-in clinics I think.
It grinds to see all the complacent folk suddenly rushing to get vaccinated just because it's suddenly real. As the director of our vax clinics said to me "when people say they're just waiting to see, I say to them "to see what? See if your sister will die?""
And the boomers that refuse to get vaccinated with AZ! My own in-laws wouldn't go until my wife told them they'll give you Pfizer if they have any regardless of your age. A retired senior executive nurse I know says she won't have any jab as a preference over AZ! Madness.
Yeah - seeing the Melbornian boomers on telly lamenting their decision not to get vaccinated (despite being eligible for months), as they headed into a 2 week lockdown was irritating as ****, as 40-50 year olds (ie: me) weren't eligible yet.
From what I've seen, people my age and younger are in a hurry to get jabbed (as they should be) so hopefully that'll bring our numbers up. I went to the main Sydney vaccination hub on Friday and there were plenty of people there, and a reassuring sense or urgency.
There really needs to be big outdoor walk-in clinics I think.
This is what I think too..... but my understanding is that we are still supply-constrained, so they are have to operate on a booking basis (to allow them to manage the second Jab too).
Thanks for this batfink - not getting much coverage over here in the UK.
Wish we'd had your sense of urgency with track and trace!
We've had walk-ins here (it was a bit awkward because people who'd booked were having to wait ages) and did set up a walk-in centre but that closes today. We were also taking any adults regardless of age.
My understanding is that the supply has been there, it's the reticence of the public that has been the problem.
Wish we’d had your sense of urgency with track and trace!
I had a text from a colleague the other week saying they couldn't make a meeting because they were contact tracing people who'd use a particular public toilet block!!!
they were contact tracing people who’d use a particular public toilet block!!!
Yeah we had that with the northern beaches outbreak - they were trying to find anyone that had used one of the toilets on Avalon beach (from memory). Seemed kinda ridiculous at the time, but am glad they're pursuing it to that degree.
Wish we’d had your sense of urgency with track and trace!
And I wish they'd had our sense of urgency with vaccination. Living a near-normal life, as many Australians have been, seems to be a major disincentive to get jabbed. Fingers crossed you can get on top of this one quickly, or it will be a miserable winter for you guys.
Seems like in the UK we had all the evidence to shut borders and go into lockdowns faster than we did and our Government wasted that advantage and put us where we are now.
In Aus, you did all that and now "the population" seems intent on throwing away the lead you gained over the vax program. I hope it's not too late for you to pull back....
(apologies for total overgeneralisation, I know plenty are keen to get jabbed and there are logistical issues too. But also will be interesting to see what effect is of the impact starting to be felt whereas previously it has been something that happens to other people / in other countries. A cold dose of reality.....)
Aren't Australia about a month (at most) behind most rich countries when it comes to the vaccine rollout? People waiting for vaccines other than AZ has happened in lots of countries. Not just because of the very small clotting risk, but also because it doesn't work as well as the alternatives. In the USA, they've skipped past using it completely. We've used it to "get ahead", but we're more the exception than the rule. I had my second AZ jab yesterday by the way.
apologies for total overgeneralisation
Nah, Fair dinkum
I can excuse/accept slow vaccination as a result of supply issues. But the government over here has done a really half-arsed job in getting the message out to people about the relative risk/benefit of the AZ jab, and that’s behind the hesitancy.
Coupled with the near-zero risk posed by covid here in the past 8-10 months, I suppose one can understand why people aren’t getting it.
I suspect that some of the older generation are quite liking having the borders closed too.
I’m slightly guilty of that - although my kids haven’t seen their grandparents for 18 months…. I’m quite enjoying sydney without the tourists
I'm with you on the lack of tourists @batfink ... but unfortunately where i am we're now overrun with Sydneysiders paying stupid money for houses and putting all the prices up 😛
Government needn't take all the responsibility for the slowness in uptake. It's not lack of supply, it's also apathy and innumeracy. You'd have to have your head buried in the sand to not have heard the stat's, but people have very short-term memories.
Articles like this (which has a nice comparison between the risks of adventure sports and AZ jab) are everywhere.
We've vaccinated about 5% of the population of the region in the last few weeks. Not bad going, but i suspect it'll drop off again if we don't get another 'shock' unfortunately.
Rules on social distancing, working from home and wearing face masks will be dropped on July 19 and replaced with 'personal responsibility,' it has been reported.
The Government is said to be encouraged by the “very, very” low number of Covid-19 deaths and an apparent slowdown in infections.
The Times reports that lockdown rules will be almost totally lifted on July 19 with 'personal responsibility' replacing laws on social distancing and face masks.
If this goes ahead, that is great news. Personal responsibility must be the way forward out of this.
What does that mean?
What does that mean?
Performing your patriotic duty by doing whatever you feel like and providing Tory ministers with someone to blame if it goes tits up in September.
Whittingdale was on BBC Breakfast this morning blaming schoolchildren for spreading it due to their close proximity outside school. Nothing to do with sitting indoors with the mask mandate removed, then.
Two mates in the village are self isolating this week - one because one of his kids came home from uni (in Manchester, so Sturgeon was right all along!) and then tested positive, another got pinged by the NHS app for a close contact last Friday when he was on an outdoor site visit.
Definitely a rise in positive tests locally looking at the government figures, gone from 50-60 a day to 250-300 a day. No deaths for several weeks though, thankfully.
What does that mean?
Presumably the end of the emergency legislation that was put in place.
I mean, what does "Personal responsibility must be the way forward out of this" mean? That's as vague as saying "Positive thinking is the way forward out of this." Once you have a crowd of people, which person is taking responsibility, and what action should they take? We're all already taking personal responsibility for our own actions... aren't we? The question is whether groups or society as a whole need to maintain any measures to prevent spread through this summer, and into the Autumn/Winter. If we decide not to have any measures at all, then whoever makes that decision should be taking on the responsibility of what happens next, not any random person picked out from the crowd, or any business trying to crack on with their trade, or any child that gives their mate a welcome hug.
I keep seeing lots of stories about Ivermectin as a possible therapeutic/prophylactic for Covid. There seem to be 3 semi-official studies but nothing gold standard. Any of our experts care to comment?
I shall be exercising my personal responsibility by continuing to do my weekly shop at quiet times and not standing cheek by jowl with dickheads at the bar.
Pity those in work situations such as the service industry where any vague idea of Joe public being respectful of them goes completely out of the window.
Had second OxAZ jab last Tues, felt rough Weds, jumped on turbo on Thurs and Fri and legs really struggled at z2 just like after my first jab in April.
Sat morning my legs were able to do my first 300W+ 20mins since just before my April jab, pleased but really knackered for rest of day. Legs felt ok on Sun morning, doing the odd short z4+ effort over an hour.
~2.5 rest days later on Tues evening just before end of England game, I force myself on the turbo, way later than normal to do a z2 ERG workout. Legs felt just like last Thurs/Fri, not at home and struggling way below normal cadence.
I don't recall a relapse after my bad April side effects, when I didn't get on a bike for ~1.5 weeks.
Anyone else had similar?
I mean, what does “Personal responsibility must be the way forward out of this” mean? That’s as vague as saying “Positive thinking is the way forward out of this.” Once you have a crowd of people, which person is taking responsibility, and what action should they take? We’re all already taking personal responsibility for our own actions… aren’t we? The question is whether groups or society as a whole need to maintain any measures to prevent spread through this summer, and into the Autumn/Winter. If we decide not to have any measures at all, then whoever makes that decision should be taking on the responsibility of what happens next, not any random person picked out from the crowd, or any business trying to crack on with their trade, or any child that gives their mate a welcome hug.
Pretty much any of the precautionary measures we have learned over the last 18 months can be classed as taking personal responsibility. Minimising close social contact, opening windows and creating good ventilation when visiting people, staying at home if you are sick, working from home where possible, travelling at off-peak times on public transport if you have to or ideally using a personal car or cycling, walking to desinations if you can. There's loads we can do to continue to play our part under the guise of personal responsibility. Getting vaccinated if you can.
We’re all already taking personal responsibility for our own actions… aren’t we?
Yes exactly. We know enough about how it works now to take it onto ourselves rather than needing emergency legislation enacted upon us for years to come.
Not sure you've grasped how this government operates. They were doing exactly as they pleased as soon as they got in to power.
Trouble is some folks simply don't give enough of a shit to follow the basic guidelines.
For example, the guy who delivered my shopping yesterday, basically dumps the box on my doormat then stands literally a foot away from me whilst I unpack it. No mask, but more Importantly how hard would it have been to take 2 steps back from the door. For his own safety and for mine.
News coming out of an even more transmissible version of delta today. That cctv story is also pretty worrying however you've got to think that that must be a bit of a one off. No way is it that transmissible otherwise alot more folks would have it than they do.
Rules on social distancing, working from home and wearing face masks will be dropped on July 19 and replaced with ‘personal responsibility,’ it has been reported.
The Government is said to be encouraged by the “very, very” low number of Covid-19 deaths and an apparent slowdown in infections.
The Times reports that lockdown rules will be almost totally lifted on July 19 with ‘personal responsibility’ replacing laws on social distancing and face masks.
If this goes ahead, that is great news. Personal responsibility must be the way forward out of this.
I really don't like the tone of that announcement, smacks far too much of the govt washing their hands of it all and putting the onus on the general public instead for any new clusters or outbreaks. It just feels like we are again about to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory (whatever that is in this case). I think we should really be making sure we enter this coming winter and flu season with the lowest level of spread we sensibly can to give us the best chance to enter 2022 at the lowest level we can, this should give us a fighting chance of having a normal 2022.
Yes we have to learn to live with it the same as we do with flu etc but it smacks of going one step too far too quickly. I'll definitely still be wearing my mask in shops and avoiding busy times and places as much as possible, sadly a lot of people are already failing to do so and putting the onus on 'personal responsibility' will just exacerbate that.
Depressing reading. I’m starting to wonder if we’ll ever get back to normal.
We know enough about how it works now to take it onto ourselves rather than needing emergency legislation enacted upon us for years to come.
Who's this "we"? Do you? Scanning this thread, I'm dubious.
Ultimately, if the decision is made that no ongoing measures are required over the summer holidays, then the politicians taking that decision are responsible for what happens later this year.
Personally, this summer, I'd be pushing for all sectors to be opened, but mask wearing indoors to be kept, and social distancing, ventilation, table service, outdoor options (including councils giving venues outdoor spaces to use, even if it means traffic restrictions) to be kept over the summer. Take further steps towards "normal" after the schools, colleges and universities return in the Autumn, if the return is shown to be safe thanks to our efforts over the summer. Learn the lesson of last summer. We're in such a better position than we were then, let's use that to have a normal educational year for youngsters, they've been though so much disturbance over the last 18 months... put them first now.
I don't get why we need to be told what to do now that the NHS isn't under the immediate risk of collapse that it was. The restrictions were only brought in to avoid a total collapse of the system, they were never about saving individual lives. That part lies with the individual who can choose to make themselves as safe as they want to be by staying at home, having shopping delivered, not seeing friends and family etc.
The scientists are almost all in agreement that the link between cases and deaths has been broken, therefore the issue of the NHS collapsing under sudden strain is removed.
You won't ever prevent significant deaths from COVID, the science has always been clear that it will end up being similar to flu so we need to adapt our healthcare system over the long term to cope with the added hospitalisation.
On a personal level, if you don't feel comfortable with that, just don't go out the house and you'll remove that risk entirely. But it's not on everyone else to eliminate that risk to you at unmeasurable financial, social and cultural loss for years and years to come.
No way is it that transmissible otherwise alot more folks would have it than they do.
It's a numbers game. If there is a 1 in 10,000 chance that walking past someone can transmit the virus (and it is theoretically possible), then you will have a small number of cases transmitted that way. The only difference here is they think they have detected the moment of transmission. There must be a lot of people who are utterly clueless about how they caught it.
Doesn't mean we should particularly change our behaviour when walking past someone in the street - it's a tiny individual risk. But people should be mindful that this variant in particular is likely to be more transmissible outdoors, and not be too complacent about standing around yapping for ages right next to someone.
immediate risk
Well, there you go. Once the risk of this is “immediate” we go into a long damaging lock down. Take “softer” actions now to keep transmissions lower instead. Revisit once we’ve had a safe return to education. I care more about youngsters starting their first full year of face to face education for 3 academic years than I do the rest of us having to wear masks indoors a bit longer over the summer.
I’m starting to wonder if we’ll ever get back to normal
I don't think we will either. I feel pretty conditioned to how life is now. Not being able to go certain things anymore, mask wearing, limited numbers in places etc.
Well, there you go. Once the risk of this is “immediate” we go into a long damaging lock down. Take “softer” actions now to keep transmissions lower instead. Revisit once we’ve had a safe return to education. I care more about youngsters starting their first full year of face to face education for 3 academic years than I do the rest of us having to wear masks indoors a bit longer over the summer.
I don't think some people like yourself will ever be satisfied with the risk being low enough to ease restrictions, you've been conditioned over 18 months to be fearful of the disease.
I am satisfied and have been for se time now that the risk is low enough.
Neither of us are scientists, so we are both just sharing our opinion.
I don’t get why we need to be told what to do now that the NHS isn’t under the immediate risk of collapse that it was
Because the NHS is always at risk of collapse every winter. Being cautious about relaxing restrictions now - and that is all any of the posters are suggesting - reduces the chance of a catastrophic NHS failure this winter. Which might give them a chance to deal with the 4 million people stuck on a waiting list, maybe.
This last 16 months has shown that while a majority of people understand their personal responsibility in this, there's a sizeable majority who don't, or won't. The restrictions are there to protect "us" from "their" actions, sadly.