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We will have to wait and see. If it’s hotel quarantine we shan’t be going. Tests and self isolation then possibly. Way too early to call it yet.
Has anyone else had covid after having had a vaccine?
Yep, my work buddy is currently isolating at home with mild symptoms - i spoke to him yesterday, he said that if he'd felt like this pre-pandemic due to a cold he'd have probably struggled into work, but does feel pretty rough.
He had the vaccine about 5 weeks ago - he picked up COVID from visiting his Dad in hospital (who has now died from COVID)
Looks like he's also given it to his 18 year old daughter.
I wouldn’t expect to be going anywhere abroad this summer, unless you like Heathrow’s Premier Inn or Travelodge for a £1700, 10 day stay on your return!
That’s only red list countries though. So if you do visit a red list country then you can presumably get a cheaper/better hotel for 10 days before flying home.
I need to go to Kenya in November so not in a major rush, but would like to go somewhere at least.
Has anyone else had covid after having had a vaccine?
Yeah one of our friends got it about 5 days after her first Pfizer jab, who can say what impact it had, but she had a 'mild cold' for about 48 hours. Her un vaccinated Husband was a big rougher and their 7 year old didn't notice, but did test positive. The sad/scary thing was their 2 year old didn't get it, but tested positive about 3 weeks later, so they spend a long time in isolation!
She's doing twice weekly LFTs so found out before she got sick.
We are due to go sailing in Greece on Jul 18.
I wouldn’t expect to be going anywhere abroad this summer, unless you like Heathrow’s Premier Inn or Travelodge for a £1700, 10 day stay on your return!
Well if you decide to travel to a 'red zone' country then you should expect the full hotel isolation treatment when you get back.
I've got 2 trips booked this summer, both postponed from last year. I will have had both jabs before I go, which might or might not have a bearing. If my destination is Green zone I'll go, if it's amber or red I won't because my Wife can't WFH and the kids would kill me.
My wife can wfh and I’m exempt quarantine rules with my job - rule 1 applies though and I am tested almost daily now.
We will also take a sensible view on it at the time. Both fully vaccinated by intended travel date, but not kids, obvs.
Cardiff and Vale NHS are now offering vaccines to the over 30s. Remarkable
Labour government, butt
I'll be honest, whilst Labour is better for the NHS than the Tories, it's far better when Government leaves them alone entirely.
The government largely left AZ and Oxford alone, apart from giving them cash it was pretty much the same with the roll-out, the NHS along with the MOD and the likes of St. Johns providing support have shown what the NHS is actually like and can actually do and not the tabloid newspaper version of things.
Track and Trace, PPE supply all that stuff when Government was involved, pretty much one disaster to another. Of course Boris, the knob likes to say "NHS Track and Trace" and "our Vaccine rollout" but it's to be expected.
. If my destination is Green zone I’ll go, if it’s amber or red I won’t because my Wife can’t WFH and the kids would kill me.
What if it moves to Red while you are there?
Not trying to wind people up, genuinely curious as to whether people are factoring it in, given how suddenly decisions get made.
MCTD - personally I keep a very close eye on infection rates etc anywhere of interest to me. It won't go from green to red in 7 days.
If things are getting worse in my destination then I'll make a call.
. If my destination is Green zone I’ll go, if it’s amber or red I won’t
I've got a colleague who's gone to India for a wedding (postponed for a year). Given the rate of increase there he may unfortunately find him going there when it's green and returning when it's red. Not good for a family of 4.
/Not trying to wind people up, genuinely curious as to whether people are factoring it in, given how suddenly decisions get made.
by sudden, do you mean too late, weeks after the evidence points that way and in a blind panic?
If India is green then Im afraid the system is a joke.
For example last summer I also sailed in the Greek Islands. Rates there were, and had been low. I was self isolated on a boat and ate at outside Tavernas.
This year you can add pre/post flight testing and vaccination to the list of measures.
Being in the 45-49 age group I booked my jabs yesterday. I logged on mid morning and had no problems at all. Choose my nearest place which happened to be a high Street pharmacy and looked like I had every slot to choose from. Left me thinking had everyone been rushing to the big vaccination sites? Anyway, I should be away from crowds (except it's Streatham high road) and booked for Monday and then July for the second. I'm excited. Fingers crossed the nearby SA variant outbreak doesn't get me first.., or after.
Genuinely seems that the vaccine roll out is they one thing we are doing well.
except it’s Streatham high road
didn’t fancy crystal palace stadium then? I’m not a fan so went elsewhere.
Anyone know any more about the SA variant thats apparently on the rise in London? Little about it in the news apart from "surge testing" taking place.
What if it moves to Red while you are there?
Not trying to wind people up, genuinely curious as to whether people are factoring it in, given how suddenly decisions get made.
I guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it, I expect by then we'll know more.
I think it's probably unlikely anywhere will go Green to Red, Green to amber is a risk, but we've (as in my Wife and I) are willing to accept some risk. Actually now I think about it, my wife would be exempt anyway and if I wanted to, I could claim the same, but as I can WFH I wouldn't.
by sudden, do you mean too late, weeks after the evidence points that way and in a blind panic?
All quite possible, given our inept executive. It is quite feasible that a late halt on holidays could happen due to worsening conditions abroad as happened with France last holiday season.
Anyone know any more about the SA variant thats apparently on the rise in London? Little about it in the news apart from “surge testing” taking place.
Covered on previous page including TiRed's response to it:
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wheres-the-coronavirus-were-all-going-to-die-conspiracy-thread/page/709/#post-11841825
by sudden, do you mean too late, weeks after the evidence points that way and in a blind panic?
You may think that, I couldn't possibly comment.
But they have form....
Covered on previous page including TiRed’s response to it:
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/wheres-the-coronavirus-were-all-going-to-die-conspiracy-thread/page/709/#post-11841825
OH sweet, thank you. Forum is still a little buggy for me.
My wife is in a complete flap over the AZ now. She’s due to have it tomorrow and has just said she isn’t going to
“Why are all these other countries saying it’s not safe for under 50/60, but here it’s fine?”
The whole thing is such a mess.
It's not a mess. They seem to have a good idea what risk of the vaccine poses. Very Low. If other governments want to panic then that's their lookout. People here should base their decisons on the information available here.
Denmark earlier today...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-56751489
It is a mess. The government is so untrusted and that has crossed to the government's experts now too. Why are we right & Denmark wrong!
Don’t get me wrong, I think she should have it and I’m a little upset over the whole issue. Personally I think her viewpoint is selfish, but I haven’t said that at home because it won’t help.
Why are we right & Denmark wrong!
Basically where my brain is at. I wouldn't say your wife is being selfish at all. Keeping yourself safe isn't selfish. I hope by the time I get called for a vaccine AZ is been canned I get given something else. Im up for A vaccine just not one that has a higher chance of killing me than another one.
I had the AZ today. I know we have CountZero’s absolutely heartbreaking story, but millions of people have had this vaccine now… it’s been proven to be safer than just about anything you can get with or without prescription over the counter at your pharmacy. I really think people should be allowed to chose their vaccine now, and accept a delay if that means getting the vaccine they want. There might not be the clinical evidence to support doing so, but if it allays concerns and results in greater take up over the coming months, it seems worth it. Empower people. Let them choose. Get as many people vaccinated as possible this year.
On TF1 news there was a report on half used flocons of AZ being thrown away in some places because there are so many cancellations. Madame has signed up for AZ on Friday having weighed up the risks and decided it's better in her arm than being wasted. Though there's not much chance of waste locally, they have a last minute system that works as I found out last Friday. Still nothing to report from me on AZ, I'm feeling fine.
No I didn't see selhurst park offered tbh, nor the place my wife went in Thornton heath, but then there were loads so they may have just been down the list distance wise. Other than I could have done my shopping in the Sainsbury under the home stand I wouldn't go to selhurst by choice though!
Surge testing is Lambeth and Wandsworth. It's odd they've not issued postcodes but then when they were hunting out the Brazil variant finally found in Croydon it was the same, no news of postcodes to get tested but signs up all around Herne hill and a huge asymptomatic 'no need to book, just come and swab' test centre in Brockwell park. All very strange
I was going to go but didn’t fancy hauling on the bars of my 2 speed brompton up anerly hill so went to St Thomas’s which is a flat journey and they were doing walk-ins for groups 1-9 which got me round the NHS database booking issue for recent 50 year olds and done a day early.
I hope by the time I get called for a vaccine AZ is been canned I get given something else. Im up for A vaccine just not one that has a higher chance of killing me than another one.
I would imagine if you drove a fair bit and partook in other lowish risk activities while waiting for a different vaccine you would actually increase your risk of death.
Surge testing is Lambeth and Wandsworth.
And now Barnet N3, and anyone whose visited the high street.
It seems that Boris Johnson has decided that as India is now suffering a second tsunami wave of COVID some of it capable of dodging the immune system that now would be a perfect time to visit.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-india-trip-variant-b1831496.html
You couldn't make it up.
Greater risk of dying from Covid than dying from blood clots, as far as I understand it.
MrsSteve had second AZ dose this morning, waiting for the 12 hour delay before any aches kick in.
I would imagine if you drove a fair bit and partook in other lowish risk activities while waiting for a different vaccine you would actually increase your risk of death.
if you have a problem with my comment come out and say rather than being sarcastic.
Well I'm near to the top of the ridge, upper Norwood, so I've always got hill one way or other, although West to st Reatham is the shallow gradient. You've reminded me to take the bike though, ta. Best pump the tyres up.
How old are you Joepud? Over 55 and you don't have much to worry about from AZ. A skinny 31-year-old could say the same of Covid itself though.
You are male I assume which makes you lower risk than a woman.
Personally I don't do the lottery because the chance of winning is so low, I reversed the logic and acepted the AZ vaccin. There will be few tragic lottery losers unfortunatley, better odds than taking the risk of winning the tombola at the village fete which is what Covid itself amounts to at my age.
Yep male, mid 30s, pretty fit and wfh 100%. Right now given cases i feel like my risk of a clot or getting covid are around the same if cases go up thats likely a different story. Most of Europe seem to be either pulling the plug on AZ or suggesting people a lot older than me also don't take it. Its totally a valid cause for concern i think, and as said i would much rather a different covid vaccine.
I understand your dilema, joepud. Madame is a teacher which has influenced our choice. Restrictions will soon be lifted here as the pressure on hospitals will dip as those most likely to be hospitalised get vaccinated, and I can't see a fourth lockdown even if cases rise. That means the acceptable level of virus circulating is going to be higher than ever with more contaminated kids in school. Pretty important to be vaccinated if you're an ageing teacher. As a younger person working from home the case for taking whatever vaccine is going isn't as strong and being patient is tempting.
You're making the assumption that a choice will ever be offered in the UK Ed.
Pleased to hear you've no ill effects btw.
Joe, I don't think Smith was being unduly flippant on this occasion. When you look at the odds clots from AZ are a very low risk in reality. It's a shame the media aren't making more of this and tbh I'm a bit disappointed in the Danes for taking what I view as a political rather than clinical decision. I guess they need to do what's required in order to manage uptake. It's all been rather badly handled in my view. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Have a listen to the recent 'more or less' available on BBC sounds. It's 9 minutes long.
Vaccination for you is not just about the here and now. It's also about the coming years.
Fwiw my jab is on Friday and I'll take what I'm given. I'm group 10.
Naive question (apologies if it's covered elsewhere already) about impact of vaccine vs impact of the virus in individuals for the resident experts.
A lot of people are reporting nasty side effects of the various vaccines, but i'm sure many (like me) aren't noticing anything more than the little prick when they get a vaccine.
All things equal, is that disparity in response likely to correlate with the disparity in the impact of catching the virus itself? ie -if you get bad unwanted effects of the jab are you likely to get sicker with COVID-19? It might seem intuitive, but the clotting associated with the AZ vaccine has been identified primarily in people under the age of 55...?
Right now given cases i feel like my risk of a clot or getting covid are around the same
Based on last numbers I saw, they reported ca 80 cases in 22M vaccinations. That is result of a one time exposure event over the course of several months.
There were 2491 CV19 cases reported YESTERDAY - when the pandemic is declining but we are still in a form of control measures (outdoors only). There have been more than 4M cases in total.
Now, your odds may be different - your age may increase your chance of a clot, and decrease your chance of a serious CV19 outcome (most people mean dying, although many would argue that long Covid effects are serious and still quite prevalent - 12% I saw?) and your odds of getting Covid can be reduced by your own behaviours, not going out, etc.
But as others have said, even then your chance of GETTING covid vs getting a clot from AZ are nowhere near the same.
If it was the only game in town I'd be strongly for you to get it based on the numbers, but as there are other choices I understand why waiting for another option is attractive. I still think you'd be better getting it now, particularly knowing the risks and that people now watch for and can treat faster, but YMMV.
I think the total clotting cases is 222 for 34 million with AZ. I can't remember the exact numbers doses used or where I saw them. Europe, especially Scandanavia, has reported a much higher clotting incidence and I am reluctant to criticise Denmark. In Germany the numbers were about three times the UK inicidence before they limited the age range and it was double in France before limiting the age range.
When working out at which age a risk : reward analysis makes the use of a vaccine reasonable or not it doesn't take much of an increase in clotting incidence to considerably reduce the age range for which its suitable. Take a population with a low Covid death rate and high incidence of clotting and ethically you can't use the vaccine.
Madame has just sent a courriel to the doctor asking if he's prepared to reduce the AZ dose to 2/3 or( 3/4 given her weight of 52kg. points raised
The lowest level of clotting concerns the heaviest population in Europe.
The clinical trials to fix the dose were carried out on the same over-weight population
The victims who have recieved media coverage appear light and healthy
There are more female victims than male, women are generally lighter.
For many meds the dose is calculated on weight, why not the vaccine?
We'll see what he's got to say, but that's covered by mediacal confidentiality so I'm afraid I won't be reporting back which would be a breach of trust.
I've tried using the "bowl of M&Ms" analogy to explain the risk with a friend. (We're middle aged makes btw)
Risk of dying of Covid is one in a thousand. If there's a thousand sweets in a bowl and eating one may kill you, would you take a lucky dip in the bowl of sweets? Maybe not.
Risk of dying of the AZ blood clots is one in a million. Would you risk a lucky dip with a million sweets in the bowl? Probably yes. And if you wouldn't, then presumably you never travel by road either.
I appreciate the odds and risks vary by age and gender.
The clinical trials to fix the dose were carried out on the same over-weight population
Trials were across three countries, UK, Brazil & South Africa.
The lowest level of clotting concerns the heaviest population in Europe.
The clinical trials to fix the dose were carried out on the same over-weight population
The victims who have recieved media coverage appear light and healthy
There are more female victims than male, women are generally lighter.
For many meds the dose is calculated on weight, why not the vaccine?
Citations required. Sorry, but this is getting dangerously close to anti-vax stuff.
Madame has just sent a courriel to the doctor
I’ll admit to not putting my Contacts in yet, but did anyone else read that as Squirrel? Puts a humerous but equally poignant taint on your post. Going down a road where people start suggesting their own doses of medicines of this nature to professionals is bonkers.
Fox news and Tucker Carlson have hit a new low.... Propagating the Vaccines Don't work conspiracy theory.... It's almost as if there's more money in treating Covid than "curing"/preventing it.
Madame has just sent a courriel to the doctor asking if he’s prepared to reduce the AZ dose to 2/3 or( 3/4 given her weight of 52kg
he's clearly not going to do that, because it then wouldnt be a vaccine dose - no one knows (or rather maybe AZ do) what happens with regards to vaccine efficacy (or its affect on blood clotting) at lower doses.
Doing what you suggest is even more experimental than just having the vaccine, You either have the AZ vaccine or you dont - there's no such thing as a bit of an az cv19 vaccine
I think the squirrel messenger has more credibility than that faux-argument
TBF, I don't think Ed's close to anti-vaxx with those, they're the sorts of questions i expect are being asked by people like the MHRA. I too have heard that more women than men, lower age groups (does younger = lighter, it's a hypothesis to test) etc.
I don't know about the victims and their size / weight but also worth testing.
As regards the dose rate of medicines being standardised across populations - I often wonder the same, given we absolutely do it for pets. IANAD, but I wonder though - I mean you can have a 3kg dog and a 60kg dog quite easily, barring daft exceptions I don't think there is a 20x difference in human (adult) weights, I'd expect most adults are from say 50-150kg so a 3x difference. And to a degree the weight is the mechanics and bodywork, I don't think a 3x individual has 3x larger blood volume, kidneys, etc. that metabolise and excrete the drug. Hence the one size fits all generally works and is way more convenient for dosing, also for productivity and planning.
One thing's for sure though.....If they were ever to decide to dose based on weight, I'm due a top up!!
Risk of dying of the AZ blood clots is one in a million. Would you risk a lucky dip with a million sweets in the bowl? Probably yes. And if you wouldn’t, then presumably you never travel by road either.
I totally see the point, but I guess (for me anyway) its about understanding the risk. I understand the risk in travel I know if I just wondering into the road i could get hit by a car so I don't do it. Do i understand the risk in clots and the AZ jab not really.
@joepud - You understand enough about the relative risk though. Whilst you might not be able to quantify it with certainty, you can understand the inherent risk with many activities or actions; e.g. should I change my flat tyre in a live lane on the A1 - erm No. Should I eat that yoghurt that is 2days past it's best before..erm go for it.
As a society we're crap at talking about this stuff (and pretty crap at Maths too). 1 in a million is lot less risky than 1 in a 100 etc.
A Clinical Pharmacologist writes...
Dose ranging is a very blunt object in vaccine trials. It's basically placebo, Low Dose (LD) and High Dose (HD), with and without an adjuvent to stimulate an immune response (mRNA and DNA vaccines are not adjuvented). Then follows a non-linear process in which your immunity produces an amplification response and makes antibody and recruits T cells and memory B cells. This is not like drugs - give 500mg and you get X concentration, give 250mg and you get X/2 concentration, with relatively low variability (about 3-6 fold low-to-high, similar to the range of bodyweights). The variation from subject to subject in antibody response to a vaccine is much much wider than that for a drug dose, hence different doses by weight make little sense. In fact, even for drugs, bodyweight explains a modest amount of the variation, much less than most people think.
[TL:DR] They won't dose on weight, beyond perhaps testing the LD in children because the process of going from dose to antibody is much more variable than for a drugs.
I understand the risk in travel
Actually you don't. And nor does anyone else really (including the pros). People know that "there is a risk" but they do not really know how that risk is quantified. A bit like bacon sandwiches increasing the risk of cancer (OMG test they do!!!). But how much bacon do I need to eat? How many hours/miles would you need to drive to increase your annual risk of death to, say 5% or 1/20? (which is a number people think COULD happen to them). How about cycling - how many hours/miles? How many flights to have a 1/20 risk of a DVT? These things are quantified, but people cannot really process low absolute risks.
Citations required. Sorry, but this is getting dangerously close to anti-vax stuff.
The rest you can find yourself, I'm going aout for a walk in the sun, you're another one who would rather call me liar than bother to check yourself what someones posting before shouting, LIAR. Bad faith, Del. People you disagree with aren't necessarily liars.
But the trials weren’t just in the UK.
Sorry Ed, don't think you're a liar or anti vax, but just think you're jumping to conclusions from separate bits of information and trying to second guess the experts.
Oh do calm down. I could well believe the UK population is the most over weight on Europe. That wasn't what I was taking issue with. You suggested the vaccine was tested against over weight subjects, went on to suggest that dosage was overly high as a result, and linked that to the very small risk of blood clotting as a result of vaccination.
It's not for me to justify your statements. If you're going to make them be prepared to back them up. I didn't call you a liar either.
Well then what needed a citation, Del? The fact that there are more female clotting victims than male has been quoted by others on the thread. The final point has a question mark at the end which TiRed answered very well (thank you TiRed, I'v copied that to the GP). As for th eprofile of person getting clotting I'm going on the TV interviews in Germany, Italy and France that I'm afraid I can't link.
Phase2/3 trials were indeed carried in other countries, Kelvin. The dose ranging is part of phase 1 so was fixed on the basis of the UK phase 1 trials:
https://covid19vaccinetrial.co.uk/phase-i-trial-explained
And quote on phase 2/3
"AstraZeneca’s vaccine is in Phase 2/3 trials in England and India, and in Phase 3 trials in Brazil, South Africa and more than 60 sites in the United States. The company intended for its U.S. enrollment to reach 30,000, and started its American trials on Aug. 31."
None of them noted for having a lightweight population.
But TiRed's answer has satisfied me that dosing to weight isn't very important. Our GP has also got back (but that's confidential) and Madame will be going along tomorrow for the vaccine satisfied that she's as informed as she can be and has made her decision from a point of knowledge rather than ignorance.
Which is what this place should be about rather than demanding citations (which is tatamonut to calling bollox unless you make it clear that you've looked yourself and failed to find) for what is in the very public domain and most of us who watch a telly now and then are aware of.
The best and worst of this place in a single page.
I am genuinely sorry you don't feel I can ask you to justify your assertions without accusing you of being a liar Ed. However I don't think that's my failing.
You can ask me to justify things that need it Del, the stuff in quotes you've asked me to justify doesn't need it, it's general knowledge, and the question was worth asking.
Your failings I could list but that would be negative use of the forum. As is agressive use of block quotes demanding citiations. You weren't even selective, you took the time to copy-paste five separate block quotes and question them. What were you thinking?
As for the anti-Vaxxer accusation, have you not read the tens of posts I've made on this thread? Believeing that the most appropriate vaccines should be used for each demographic is not anti-vax, it's common sense. Our dilema comes from being in a situation where he have to chose between AZ now or Pfiser later, and maybe too late given the return to school shortly. I've already had AZ, Madame is going tomorrow and TiRed's input has been part of the decision olong with the GP's reply.
Joepud has a similar dilema. It's a question of weighing up risks. Would you take AZ now as a fit 30-year-old wfh or wait for Pfizer, Del? Would you be going for AZ tomorrow in Madame's circumstances?
May I recommend this excellent book to assist with thinking about risk: Reckoning with Risk
Dude, calm down! The quote thing was a quirk of the editor!
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I stated above</span>
You suggested the vaccine was tested against over weight subjects, went on to suggest that dosage was overly high as a result, and linked that to the very small risk of blood clotting as a result of vaccination.
This was what I took issue with.
We're all weighing the risks but links to good sources of information help inform. Leeps of logic like that taken above aren't helpful.
I agree, targeted use of different vaccination is a sensible approach where new information comes to light, and time and logistics allow.
Yes, if I was in my 30s I would take whatever vaccination was offered that is approved for use by the mhra. Perhaps my confidence in their judgement is misplaced but I think I have a reasonable handle on the relative risks. It's my (hopefully) informed risk to take as you take yours.
As far as I am aware 'waiting for Pfizer' is not an option in the UK. Nice for you that you have that choice.
I have apologised. I'm sorry that doesn't appear to satisfy you. If your want to take this further I suggest you report my post. I'm not sure how I can placate you further.
It's not just about risk though, it's what we gain from taking that risk (or lose by not taking it)
Back to car travel - iirc about 1/38000 of having a fatal car accident in the UK in any year (1750 deaths and 66M population)
Compared to train travel = negligible in a year, and about 1/135,000 in a lifetime.
Why does anyone drive anywhere, just take the train?
- because it's expensive, inconvenient, doesn't go where I need, or simply because I like driving my German IT manager saloon......
All of which can be overcome but we choose to take on the risk of driving despite that, and because it's such a common thing is seen as low risk even though it clearly isn't.
1/500 of us will die in a car accident in our lifetime.......ban cars now!
Sky news reporting the risk of Blood Clots greatly increased by previously having had C19 AZ still has a very minor risk.
But by far as a factor of x8 vs AZ your more at risk after recovering from C19.
After Covid alone =39/1000000
AZ = 5/1000000
FWIW I'm late 30's, pretty fit & healthy and work from home 90% of the time. I'm going for my AZ jab on Monday with the wife (41). I've got zero worries about catching Covid and dying, what terrifies me is long Covid and not being able to do what I love on a daily basis.
Reading what TiRed, BadlyWiredDog and a few others have been through is bloody awful and something I want to do all I can to avoid!
University of Oxford research - link
In this study of over 500,000 COVID-19 patients, CVT occurred in 39 in a million patients.
In over 480,000 people receiving a COVID-19 mRNA vaccine (Pfizer or Moderna), CVT occurred in 4 in a million.
CVT has been reported to occur in about 5 in a million people after first dose of the AZ-Oxford COVID-19 vaccine.
Compared to the mRNA vaccines, the risk of a CVT from COVID-19 is about 10 times greater.
Compared to the AZ-Oxford vaccine, the risk of a CVT from COVID-19 is about 8 times greater.
but how many people get these blood clots on any given day? I've not seen that stat yet
if it's 1 in 4Bn then I'd be worried about the vaccine.
If it's 1 in 375 then I'd grab the vaccine with both hands
and also, if I read that right - 5 per million for AZ vs 4 per million for the mRNA's.....
It's a reduced risk to wait for the mRNA but not by much (20% in %'s but in absolute terms....)
Waits to see if anyone pops up to claim it's propaganda.
[TL:DR] They won’t dose on weight, beyond perhaps testing the LD in children because the process of going from dose to antibody is much more variable than for a drugs.
@tired I mentioned on here a few days ago dosing based on age given the young have stronger immune systems which seems to correlate with the greater side effects seen with the vaccine and also the higher efficacy against infection demonstrated in vaccinated younger people. A lower dose in under 50s could mean much faster vaccination of this cohort and also potentially less serious side effects, like the clotting issue.
Personally I’ve been wiped out by the Moderna Jab I had on Tuesday. High temps 38.5-39, shaking, nausea etc. I assume my immune system has gone into overdrive and I should be pretty well protected. I even wonder if the 2nd jab is necessary?
Hubby had his jab at lunch time. He was given the Moderna.
I'll be interested to see if he has any side effects. I really don't know many that haven't with the Ox/AZ.
There are quite a few countries out there that haven't even got round to vaccinating their old or elderly populations yet. I feel so lucky to have this vaccination programme. Also that it's being run so well by the NHS and their army of volunteers.
(mashes thumbs up button)
+1
I mentioned on here a few days ago dosing based on age given the young have stronger immune systems which seems to correlate with the greater side effects seen with the vaccine and also the higher efficacy against infection demonstrated in vaccinated younger people. A lower dose in under 50s could mean much faster vaccination of this cohort and also potentially less serious side effects, like the clotting issue.
I had also wondered about this. I have absolutely no expertise in the area, but based upon the anecdotal reports of vaccine side/adverse effects it seems possible that the response generated in younger people is excessive, and more than that required to provide protection. I too had assumed that reduced dose would equal reduced response (with the added advantage of making the available vaccine stretch further). However reading TiRed's reply I'm not sure if it's that simple.
In the end my wife overcame her fears and took her AZ jab today.
Cool. Hope (like me) she has no side effects.
but based upon the anecdotal reports of vaccine side/adverse effects it seems possible that the response generated in younger people is excessive
The relationship between titer produced and protection from infection is very weak. Some people may make a strong response with high titer, but others may not. That does not correlate well with protection from disease. There will be strain-dependent challenges here too. I agree with the sentiment, but this is not the same as drugs and pharmacology.
What's a titer?
It's something to do with Frankie Howerd i think...