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The first **** that came to mind as soon as I heard about the proposed 'restrictions'. 🙄
Guardian reporting the Moderna vaccine expected in April
Which begs the question, where is it being made? US has a ban, EU..... or Switzerland?
Switzerland I think.
Anyone know how GPs will be/are calling up the under 50s? I think there are 7-8M in the 40-49 group so with a restricted supply and the 2nd jabs to do it might take months to get through them.
If it’s alphabetically on surname for the whole 40-49 cohort I’ll be at the back of the queue. If it’s on age e.g. 49s first then 48 etc. then I should be near the front.
They seem to do it by age here in W Yorks
49.5 and was called up last Monday
*sigh*
Tourists back. I know that Covid is officially "over" tomorrow but it's taking the piss. Cars queueing out of big car parks and down the road here in North Yorkshire.
Just since a private coach disgorge about 50 people.
Just since a private coach disgorge about 50 people.
Pretty sure that's very illegal. Even tomorrow.
They seem to do it by age here in W Yorks
49.5 and was called up last Monday
Same here in N Yorks - 49 and had my first jab yesterday.
Do any of our experts have an opinion on mixing vaccines? I see the Uk is holding a trial on this reading out around June.
I was reading how several recent vaccines use different carriers for first and second dose to increase efficacy. Would this likely be better for protection against variants too as different vaccines target different parts of the virus?
Does anyone know when Wales is planning on opening the "border"?
In theory mixing vaccines should be fine for efficacy, potentially it could be better as the different vaccines could create a wider spread of antibodies so could cover more variants and attach to more areas of the virus.
The concerns are that it could result in some enhanced cytokine issues, maybe some auto reactivity to the host or other unkown effects.
All of the above is why we need the trials.
If shown that they are safe in trials (no reason that they shouldn't be) then i would happily have a mix. Currently on Pfizer though.
Ultimately the boosters we may need will likely be from different manufacturers as the challenge of coordinating main vaccine doses and boosters from the same manufacturer would be a right pain
Do any of our experts have an opinion on mixing vaccines? I see the Uk is holding a trial on this reading out around June.
Ultimately the vaccines are presenting a foreign protein, present on the surface of a new pathogen, to the immune system. There will be slight differences in presentation, notably in how the spike is assembled, but these will be small. Only a small part of the protein, which is a small part of the virus, is truly immunogenic. The reason people are concerned about E484K mutations is because this is a site for immune escape. There is evidence that serum from past infections has better coverage of mutants than some vaccine serum.
But I would not be worried about a boost from a different vaccine brand myself. Or indeed a technology (mRNA, dsDNA in a virus, spike, spike flowers or even attenuated virus) is be happy to mix and match.
Just since a private coach disgorge about 50 people.
Other than the poor auto correct, perhaps it was a local care home off out on their daily exercise now they've all been inoculated?
😉
Graham & TiRed - thanks - that's good news. From the front line, its going to be a logistical nightmare, especially as new vaccines come on stream, to coordinate the correct second dose for each patient. We don't know more than a few days out what we will get vaccine wise. We already use both Pfizer & AZ, sometimes both on the same day.
Oh - had my second jab the other day - only 5 weeks between, but due to no-shows we had spare at the end of shift.
If you are eligible you don't need to be called up in turn - just use the NHS website and book yourself in anywhere that has space. There is a community vac centre in my town (I'm volunteering a little to help out) and all sorts are turning up from some distance away (up to 40 miles I've seen). I'm over 50 and actually booked myself in there for a jab but then the doctor phoned up to give me an earlier appointment at the local surgery who are also doing vaccination days.
I was reading how several recent vaccines use different carriers for first and second dose to increase efficacy.
Sputnik5 works this way, first and second doses are quite different. There’s an expectation that mixing the AstraZeneca and Sputnik5 will increase their effectiveness. I linked to the announcement about trials for this a few pages ago.
Are we still making jokes about how quickly Russia and China developed, approved and started rolling out vaccines? Or, now that we ‘beat’ EU countries in the race to start rolling out vaccinations (admittedly initially with a vaccine funded, developed and produced ‘over there’) are we now less sniffy/mocking/doubtful about the impressively speedy efforts by Russia and China?
From the front line, its going to be a logistical nightmare, especially as new vaccines come on stream, to coordinate the correct second dose for each patient.
We’ve had some information about UK trials for mix and matching UK approved vaccines earlier in this thread, they have months to go though. And we’ve had links to the advice that administrating mixed does is allowed if there is a reaction to the first dose. And a first hand example of this being used. Otherwise it’s strictly two doses of the same vaccine for now, and will be for some time, no matter what the short logistical problems of that are. Other countries are allocating both doses of the vaccine at the same time, to avoid the risk of the second dose being unavailable when the time comes to administer it. But that does, for now at least, restrict how fast you can roll out first doses.
One reason Sputnik uses two viruses is because one will make antibodies against the carrier virus. Proteins on the surface will generate their own immune response. Likely small as there is not a lot of virus (5x10^10 particles from memory) and this amplifies production of spike protein. You done want to neutralise the second dose before it gets a chance to make that second dose of protein. Whether this is a problem or not is a moot point. The ox/AZ vaccine raises a good second boost of antibodies against spike protein. I linked to the lancet study previously.
are we now less sniffy/mocking/doubtful about the impressively speedy efforts by Russia and China
They certainly released quickly but without any peer reviewed data? I never thought that was very sensible if you actually want take-up to be high numbers. Did they make it compulsory?
Plenty of real world data out there now I suppose.
That’s my memory of it, it was authorised for use at an earlier point in the process than normal. There was some incredulity at what looked like Kremlin propaganda but that’s fair game tbh.
are we now less sniffy/mocking/doubtful about the impressively speedy efforts by Russia and China
Not really speedy efforts are they, their own internal takeup is slow.
They marketed a product, tested it on some cohorts and basically exported most of it.
Low uptake at home for Sputnik. I can't think why the Russian public don't trust the state.......
Some interesting results on vaccination for those who might be taking biologicals, notably anti-TNFs for rheumatoid or crohn's disease https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.25.21254335v1 . Antibody produced following vaccination is reduced by about 70%. Since these are immunomodulators, one would expect a reduced antibody response - and this is noted. Of course all these studies measure antibody produced rather than protection, but one should not be surprised that damping down the immune system reduces immunogenic response. This is not new, and it is too small a trial to note any clinical consequences. For RA, methotrexate is used to reduce the body's immune response to infliximab (which is a chimeric mouse/human antibody).
Another day, another slogan; hands, face, space... and fresh air.
But Be warned! Don’t go taking the piss Boris says. That’ll stop ‘em.
F.. f... s...
are we now less sniffy/mocking/doubtful about the impressively speedy efforts by Russia and China
Isn’t this because the Russians essentially declared their virus ready before doing any mass testing? I know you probably don’t mean to be, but you are increasingly coming across as if you resent the success of the vaccine rollout in this country.
Some interesting results on vaccination for those who might be taking biologicals, notably anti-TNFs for rheumatoid or crohn’s disease https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.25.21254335v1 . Antibody produced following vaccination is reduced by about 70%.
Someone I know is in this predicament (was part of this, or a similar trial). Should she be pushing for dose 2 ASAP?
I know you probably don’t mean to be, but you are increasingly coming across as if you resent the success of the vaccine rollout in this country.
I absolutely don't. The more, the quicker, the sooner, the better.
I thought you was just trying to provide balance against the negative responses to the EU tosh?
Although theres a line if thought suggesting Von Der Leyen is to some degree motivated by the September elections in which the CDU might struggle
In which case, also fair game for criticism.
No, what I was interested in was how sceptical we were here in the UK (and I include myself in that) about Russia and China getting vaccines in use before others... and yet we act as if it's a conspiracy or a failure when others get vaccine into use after us. I was personally considering the EU and USA as over cautious, and Russia and China as not cautious enough... as I'm sure most people were... but now I'm wondering whether we really did take the "Goldilocks approach", or of it's just us having an understandable bias seeing things from a UK viewpoint.
Someone I know is in this predicament (was part of this, or a similar trial). Should she be pushing for dose 2 ASAP?
Her rheumatologists will inform on this. They are used to thinking about immunomodulatory treatments and their impact on vaccination (most notably for B cell therapy, which I have worked on). She can, however, point them in the direction of the study - and others.
Is this some mad puzzle that we can't interpret?
https://twitter.com/joepike/status/1376573674757754888?s=20
Lol, can imagine the conspiracy lot going nuts now.
It is simply because the gsk barney site is massive and a sterile fill facility.
Where in the process is Novovax? Still in Ph3? What is a likely date for approval? Boris stated in the presser that they are already making vaccine ahead of approval.
Novavax has been submitted and is undergoing rolling review. This is a company that have never delivered a product, despite over 20 years of trying. Now they have. It should come as no surprise that they need help with delivering product. This is manufacture, fill and finish at risk. But the efficacy for this vaccine looks very very good. As does the (almost) conventional technology.
https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-starts-rolling-review-novavaxs-covid-19-vaccine-nvx-cov2373
TiRed - apologies, I couldn't quite understand what your anti-TNF point was.
I'm on Humira (brand name I think rather than drug) - are you saying that the vaccination is less effective for me? I'm no longer taking methotrexate.
Thanks
I see Cuba have developed 2 vaccines as well.👍
I should have got a sense of optimism from this.
It's a bit poacher turned gamekeeper.
Those guilty of vaccine nationalism are now saying oh it's bad, so let's work together.
I doubt any initiative will survive longer than their stint in office.
Now Canada has suspended AZ use for under 55's, report says that clots are potentially as high in 1/100,000, particularly in younger women.
Still vastly in favour of the benefit vs getting Covid but this'll get those that believe this is rushed and untested all stoked up again won't it?
I should have got a sense of optimism from this.
Why? Whatever Johnson says has the same credibility as the smallest whiff of fart gas. It was convenient for him to say at that moment in time, that's all.
Does anyone know what the comparison of blood clots is compared to the contraceptive pill? It looks like the pill increases blood clots by about 3x normal and this seems to be taken happily by a lot of people including me.
Personally I can't wait till I get offered the vaccine.
I don't, but I'm sure the info is out there somewhere (prob in your patient leaflet with every box of pills you get), but we have to also be cautious of using the absolute comparisons like three times more likely, etc.
After all you're 15 times more likely to be killed by a cow than by lightning; you're still incredibly unlikely to be killed by either.
Don't have nightmares.....
I’m on Humira (brand name I think rather than drug) – are you saying that the vaccination is less effective for me? I’m no longer taking methotrexate.
The data shows that if you are taking infliximab, that the antibody response is reduced (NOT eliminated). I was interested in the role TNF may be playing in the immunogenicity process and adalimumab (branded Humira) is an aTNF that effectively works the same way, except you don't get the six-weekly tea and biscuits at the infusion centre 😉 . Since infliximab is so commonly administered with MTX or another concomitant immunomodulator, the paper notes a lower antibody response with added modulation. Note there IS a response to the vaccine with antibody production and correlations between precise levels of antibodies and afforded protection have not been demonstrated. Importantly, the updated paper summarises:
Vaccination after SARS-CoV-2 infection, or a second dose of vaccine, led to seroconversion in most patients. Delayed second dosing should be avoided in patients treated with infliximab
This link was helpful reading too https://www.sps.nhs.uk/articles/using-covid-19-vaccines-in-patient-taking-immunosuppressive-medicines/ with good links.
Your consultant will advise.
Thanks TiRed
I've not really been keeping up with this thread, but have just received my appointment for a first vaccine jab this Saturday...
I'm (not quite) 44, so don't know if this is representative of where we are in the country as a whole of getting people vaccinated. I wasn't expecting anything for a while yet.
I'm not far off 43 so maybe not to far away for me then.
Omnicalculator reckons the next two weeks, even at the lower vaccination rates
I'm nudging 46 and no sign of a vaccine yet. This is in Mid Sussex btw.
47, no vaccine here. I’m assuming May now.
Can i get a read out if that article please. My dutch is non existent
Thank you.
That isn't happy reading for the dutch government
There is a reason why the UK does not have the Moderna vaccine. The US invested significant sums through Operation Warp Speed to invest at risk in the trial infrastructure, manufacturing and development costs for companies that otherwise would not have had the capital to fund the research. That investment became purchasing. Pfizer was big enough to go its own way so can sell to who it wants at its own price. The UK made smaller investments and paid up front at risk, having always stated that a vaccine was the exit door.
Ultimately, this is really very early in the cycle. Vaccination will become mainstream, production will ramp up, there will be many suppliers and the problem will eventually be solved. It's just going to take time.
41 and had my invite a couple of days ago.
Can’t get it done this week due to commitments, but booked in for Tuesday. In Gloucestershire.
Oh dear, not looking good in euroland.
Wonder where Austria got the idea to threaten supply.
If you live by the sword........
That does look more like political posturing for a domestic market than anything else.
Yeah, definitely some political games, rather like macron ahead of next years elections.
Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey, antibody and vaccination data for the UK
In England, an estimated 1 in 2 people, or 54.7% of the population (95% credible interval: 49.3% to 60.5%) would have tested positive for antibodies against the coronavirus – SARS-CoV-2 – on a blood test in the week ending 14 March 2021, suggesting they had the infection in the past or have been vaccinated
production will ramp up,
In two to three years, by which time people will be livid if social distancing is continuing in some form or another.
Anyway, any thoughts on this clickbait from Oxfam TiRed?
Vaccines will need to try and keep up with mutations. “Current vaccines” are not what you’ll be having next year anyway (or even this winter, if you’re in an at risk category).
Keeping prevalence low this year (internationally as well as at home) will buy us much needed time. If we don’t, there is a greater number of opportunities for mutations resistant to (current) vaccines to develop and catch us unready, and for them to spread faster and wider than track and trace can cope with.
Anyway, any thoughts on this clickbait from Oxfam TiRed?
I've said it dozens of times, but the relationship between antibody titer and sterile protection from infection has not been quantified. That being said, there is concern that the reduction in titers (number of times you can dilute serum and maintain viral inhibition) for sera from Ox/AZ when tested against the South Africa variant B.351.1 is concerning. Keeping it at bay is prudent. Serious infections with COVID19 seem to be mitigated even for this strain, however. That is what matters and I have always said the same. Transmission reductions are an upside, because over sufficient time, we will all catch SARS-CoV2 at some point (can you guess I'm a "zero covid sceptic" 😉 )
We are so very early in the coronavirus endemic cycle. Racing, no doubt. But the solution is now an operational rather than scientific one. Production of new vaccine strains and implementation will fall into line. This is NOT influenza and whilst apparently adapting relatively fast to its new very welcoming host, that will eventually come to pass and we can settle down to modest annual strains and vaccinate accordingly.
47 nothing heard, my doctor surgery hates me though. Forgot to process a mis diagnosis of cancer, left me hanging for a bit.
Sent me to a+e due to a language barrier after a shoulder dislocation, which I'd been treated for and was holding the x-rays, asking for physio.
Told me I had liver failure which turned out to be acid reflux.
They prob have my age down as 37.
I very rarely visit and keep meaning to change surgery.
Love that Dutch article!
"This is not like the butcher: it is not, whoever invests first will be the first to receive vaccines." With that statement by European Commissioner Stella Kyriakides, the battle between AstraZeneca and the European Commission about the supply of corona vaccines started. The EU was furious that it is getting far fewer vaccines than previously promised, while the British were just getting their promised amounts.
What Kyriakides did not add: London not only stood in line at the proverbial butcher earlier, but was also willing to pull out the wallet and put down hefty sums before it was clear whether the butcher would have meat at all. And the Netherlands had the chance to stand next to the British in April and May last year .
.
Almost 48 here, no invite for a vac yet and was thinking it'll be late April or after.
Wife with asthma for her first recently, very smooth and swift.
This is looking good…
In participants aged 12-15 years old, BNT162b2 demonstrated 100% efficacy and robust antibody responses, exceeding those reported in trial of vaccinated 16-25 year old participants in an earlier analysis, and was well tolerated
I’ve said it dozens of times, but the relationship between antibody titer and sterile protection from infection has not been quantified. That being said, there is concern that the reduction in titers (number of times you can dilute serum and maintain viral inhibition) for sera from Ox/AZ when tested against the South Africa variant B.351.1 is concerning. Keeping it at bay is prudent. Serious infections with COVID19 seem to be mitigated even for this strain, however. That is what matters and I have always said the same. Transmission reductions are an upside, because over sufficient time, we will all catch SARS-CoV2 at some point (can you guess I’m a “zero covid sceptic” 😉 )
Agreed, but the epidemiologists who were asked - were not worried about current strains but worried about the increased risk of selection for new strains at current vaccination rates in the developing world. What I took away from that article is that they, like me are worried about our ability to supply vaccines in a timely manner.
But the solution is now an operational rather than scientific one. Production of new vaccine strains and implementation will fall into line
The operational solution has always been the hardest one to solve. The point that some epidemiologists have been raising that whilst the developing world has very low vaccination rates, the risk of a vaccine resistant strain being selected for increases. In the short term we are far from being able to rapidly manufacture new vaccine variants for the West at the supply rates required to fully vaccine Europe and America in a timely fashion let alone for the developing world.
Keeping prevalence low this year (internationally as well as at home) will buy us much needed time. If we don’t, there is a greater number of opportunities for mutations resistant to (current) vaccines to develop and catch us unready, and for them to spread faster and wider than track and trace can cope with.
Which gets back to my point from a number of pages back, people are expecting this to be over once the vaccine is fully rolled out by the end of July. They are not expecting continual measures to keep prevalence low in the medium term until we build the requisite manufacturing capability.
How happy do we think the public are going to be with continuing attempts to keep prevalence low until 2023, when they expected it to be over by the summer?
Travel in and out of Wales allowed from 12th April . 👍
I guess I'm the only person excited about being able to go to Wales soon ...
Only just seen that.....I'm fairly happy about it, although the bits that I'm familiar with were hellish last year when we went in September.
Only just returning to mtb and fancy some trail centre action. I'm guessing they'll be best avoided for a while?
I'm 56 and Mrs DB 54 - not a sniff of a vaccination letter, locally looks like Grampian Health are well behind the curve and we have a big spike in local cases. Now they're saying mid-April to be notified, so might not get it before the end of the month.
I'm healthy but the risk of long COVID is still significant and we're still staying clear of anyone.
Travel in and out of Wales allowed from 12th April
I live 750m from the border so its kind of difficult not to walking the dog or having a run but so far the border guards haven't shot me.
Surprised under 50s are getting invites when communication went out recently from nhs chiefs that none were to be booked in before may due to the shortages
45 year old asthmatic here, I’m hopeful of getting a jab by end of may at earliest. Much better position to be in than other countries so can’t complain, however the accessibility of the jab does appear to vary massively by location.
On a side note.... just went to shops and the number of folks wearing masks that don’t cover their nose is astounding. Are these people deliberately doing that, or just a bit thick?
You can book yourself a jab at the link below....
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavirus-vaccination/book-coronavirus-vaccination/
48 here and nothing yet - i'm expecting early May now.
I guess I’m the only person excited about being able to go to Wales soon …
Me too. April last year, my "what do you want to do when lockdown is eased" answer was "ride at afan". Between lockdowns, injury to the mrs, and managing to get to france for a week last summer, we've as yet been unable to do so.
I'll have waited a year for it when it happens. Can't wait.
I live 750m from the border so its kind of difficult not to walking the dog or having a run but so far the border guards haven’t shot me.I live 750m from the border so its kind of difficult not to walking the dog or having a run but so far the border guards haven’t shot me.
Don't tell them your name Pike!
just a bit thick?
^^ that. Half the country still can't name the symptoms after a year. At least the disease is self-selecting to an extent.
There's a pub near us where the border runs through the middle of the bar. Not sure what they did last lockdown when English pubs opened before the Welsh.
I've also heard that golfers using Llanymynech Golf Club where the border runs though the middle of the course are allowed to cross the border during the course of a round without taking a COVID test.
Don’t tell them your name Pike!
I know I shouldn't let it get to me.. but this common misquote ruins the joke completely.
I was pleased to hear about Wales El. I have a campsite booked in the Brecon beacons for the May bank hol weekend for my birthday so pleased that will go ahead.