Despite what you might think, the Germans love a bit of social discipline and toeing the line.
Ah yes, goes hand in hand with their efficiency, predilection for uniform and like of marching music. 🙄
zilog6128 put it much better.
Wow, there's some pointless bellendery appearing on this thread.
And quite a lot of naivity. The NHS makes life and death decisions every day. The problem is that the potential scale of the epidemic is such that the system won't be able to cope and the "bar" of who they could/should save will get higher and higher.
The NHS makes life and death decisions every day.
Of course they do, but not of the sort proposed above - letting some folk die so freelancers can get back to work.
Can i just ask (as theres a lot to get through) are we all going to die from this? Its all sounding quite scary and im getting the impression (from the media) that we arnt being told everything. I mean effectively shutting down Italy it seems a bit scary!
Not saying they are Nazis. I'm saying that when it comes to doing the right thing (or doing what they are told) Germans are very good at it.
In no other country have I ever been berated by a granny because I crossed the road against the red man.
andybrad - yes, covid-19 is going to totally wipe-out the world's population including 'preppers'.
FFS....
Of course they do, but not of the sort proposed above – letting some folk die so freelancers can get back to work.
How many people die as a result of a major recession?
There was quite an outrage against austerity quite literally killing people not too long ago.
I'm not advocating carrying on with reckless sneezing abandon while counting our money; just saying that it needs to be (and hopefully has been) considered when costing the NHS emergency procedures.
the “bar” of who they could/should save will get higher and higher
What by and large worries me is it won't really, we'll just end up with a first come first served system where, folks like my grandparents who are absolutely high risk [would have shipped them selves to dignitas years ago, will never recover because their starting point is a painful, protracted, bedbound/immobile, slow and undignified wait to die so the DNR kicks in] will likely contract it early and end up in hospital for a long time, recieving treatment they don't really want but won't be told "sorry, we need this bed". In the mean time people who could come out the other side healthy simply won't be able to access treatment because of lack of space.
Can i just ask (as theres a lot to get through) are we all going to die from this? Its all sounding quite scary and im getting the impression (from the media) that we arnt being told everything. I mean effectively shutting down Italy it seems a bit scary!
What do you think you are not being told?
Published so far are the number of cases, number recovered, number of fatalities, symptoms, methods of infection and spread and tactics for dealing with the outbreak.
are we all going to die from this?
No.
The data from China is easily googleable. Somewhere around 3% of confirmed cases. Bear in mind, in China, smoking is common, but so are temporary hospitals built in the space of a few days, and a massive lockdown to prevent spread. Here, we have less smoking, but chuff all spare capacity in the NHS and zero appetite for welding people into apartment buildings to enforce the quarantine.
In short, lots of people will die, predominantly the elderly, or those with weakened circulatory or respiratory systems.
Pay attention to what happens in Italy - we are Italy but two weeks behind.
Just to be clear, how much money is a human life worth?
To who?
The graveyards are full of people the world could not do without. CdG
@bikebuoy - "onboarding" is crappy management speak for the induction process that new employees go through.
Can i just ask (as theres a lot to get through) are we all going to die from this? Its all sounding quite scary and im getting the impression (from the media) that we arnt being told everything. I mean effectively shutting down Italy it seems a bit scary!
Its the media, what do you expect, they must be loving this. Especially once everyone's stuck at home browsing the internet all day, clicking on those ads.
Look at how one mention about a very temporary lack of toilet roll on the other side of the world snowballed and led to global TP panic buying and actual shortage in the shops.
Things are basically fine in this corner of Italy. The sun is out and kids are playing outside with their parents. The travel restrictions are probably a wise precaution to slow down the spread of the outbreak. For sure the economic impact will be heavy with many people unable to work. I've seen no signs of panic buying in supermarkets here. Lidl was quieter than normal yesterday.
For sure the economic impact will be heavy with many people unable to work. I’ve seen no signs of panic buying in supermarkets here
genuine question about how the lockdown works....so people can still go shopping? but not to work?
Can i just ask (as theres a lot to get through) are we all going to die from this?
if you want facts, this thread is definitely not the place to come....you'd be as well reading the Daily Fail
Early Tuesday morning a 38-year-old man known as Italy's "Patient No. 1" was moved out of intensive care for the first time since he tested positive in late February in Lombardy, giving doctors what the Associated Press described as "a small victory" in the crisis.
From businessinsider but widely reported.
I'm assuming (hoping) they were otherwise very unwell anyhow. Two plus weeks in icu for a 38 year old early in the outbreak sounds rather more ominous than lots of old people dying.
genuine question about how the lockdown works….so people can still go shopping? but not to work?
Same question - I have elderly grandparents (101 & 95) who my mum (also 70) travels about an hour or so to see at least weekly, they have carers that visit daily, they certainly can't work from home.
I just had confirmation from a sub-contractor in Modena that they are working as normal and there is no restriction on 'travel to work'.
Compare that with China, where one of my team still (this was last Thursday) cannot travel 30 minutes by train to work (in the next city), without a 14 day isolation period.
I can only hope our response is better than Italy's. They have a terrible mortality rate compared to somewhere like South Korea.
Matt
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-51751031
They are heading home for lunch with six other children, as parents are taking it in turn to host, sharing the babysitting load during this difficult period.
I guess lockdown isn't really holding already then.
an example of how chinese government are enforcing quarantine
In critical industries like steel making
workers have to stay in the factories & arent allowed to visit their families
https://www.ft.com/content/396def8e-5d82-11ea-8033-fa40a0d65a98
I guess lockdown isn’t really holding already then.
I think the lockdown just stops you travelling between regions, doesn't it?
As I read it, in Italy it's preventing unnecessary travel (so you need a reason to be on public transport etc) and congregation really. It's not anything like the lockdown in China.
My rather flippant point was more closing schools etc is to minimise contact and circulation, but having kids gathering else where instead simply to keep them entertained* rather minimises any benefit of that.
*was the inference I took from the article in general though that's completely subjective.
Surely it would’ve been better (massive logistic operation notwithstanding) to isolate & test everyone coming into the UK when this broke? Still be useful doing it now, seeing as people are still arriving from outbreak zones. Yet I haven’t heard anyone in power even suggest doing it?
Everyone? Do you have any idea how many people were outside the UK when it broke? Do you even have a clear view on when you would start doing this? The day someone got sick in china? The day china publicly declared a problem? the day china locked down Wuhan?
We DID quarantine people coming back from the highest risk areas. That was easy because there were very few of them. We DID test people coming back from wider areas who had potential symptoms. That made sense because testing asymptomatic people is potentially misleading - assuming this behaves like other viruses a person can be infected but not yet have sufficient virus to detect in swab or blood samples... come back a few days later and they will be swarming with the stuff. We can't test everyone - we simply don't have the resources (and frankly its pointless as the treatment is the same anyway, so testing is for epidemiology, and prioritising containment not treatment decisions - I predict we will stop routine testing if it hits 10% of the population).
Now just imagine for a moment you were travelling somewhere, shit happens somewhere else and you land back in Britain to be told you will be locked up for 2 weeks, you're not ill, you're not coming from an area with known illness, and haven't spoken to anyone who was sick, but you are being denied free movement back into your own country; all without prior warning this might happen before you left (or possibly even before you go on the return flight). Are your rights less important than the 1:1M chance you might have an infection? Balance that against the cost, the missing a loved one's funeral, or birth, or birthday, or getting fired for not coming to work, or all the teachers who don't come back after midterm, or pupils on school trips who can't see their parents for an extra two weeks. And if, as seems likely, this virus is "out the bag" then it will forever more be in circulation - so then the UK has to maintain this "air lock" forever. Thats the end of trade, travel, and most of our supply routes.
I can only hope our response is better than Italy’s. They have a terrible mortality rate compared to somewhere like South Korea.
the number 1 difference between being able to keep the mortality rate down so far seems to be the number of hospital beds available (China were able to create 100s of 1000s of beds in a few weeks)
number of hospital beds per 10,000 people which isnt exactly the same as spare beds, but...
1 Japan 13.3
2 South Korea 10.92
3 Russia 9.07
4 Germany 8.28
5 Austria 7.64
6 Hungary 7.04
7 Czech Republic 6.7
8 Poland 6.61
9 Lithuania 7.28
10 France 6.28
11 Slovakia 5.8
12 Belgium 5.93
13 Latvia 5.8
14 Hong Kong 5.4
15 Estonia 5.01
16 Luxembourg 5.17
17 Switzerland 4.68
18 Slovenia 4.55
19 China 3.31
20 Greece 4.24
21 Australia 3.74
22 Norway 3.86
23 Portugal 3.39
24 Netherlands 4.18
25 Finland 4.87
26 Italy 3.31
27 Iceland 3.22
28 Israel 3.09
29 Spain 2.96
30 Ireland 2.56
31 Turkey 2.65
32 United States 2.89
33 New Zealand 2.78
34 Denmark 3.07
35 UNITED KINGDOM 2.76
36 Canada 2.71
37 Sweden 2.59
38 Chile 2.16
39 Colombia 1.54
40 Mexico 1.44
UK has lost 20,000 hospital beds since 2010 & thats on top of an ageing population & chronic bed blocking due to social care cuts
Italy has number of factors against it which mean it's death rate is higher, especially it's higher average age.
I've not been out today yet, as I'm working from home, but the bins have been collected, the buses are running, and there are a cars on the Autostrada, albeit fewer than normal.
I think there are different restrictions in different area, but in this sleepy corner most people will be a able to travel the short distance for work, but city to city travel will be more restricted. We haven't bothered doing much shopping because yes you can get out to the supermarkets etc.
the00
Licence to mill?
The makers of hand sanitiser are certainly rubbing their hands right now
By *. The sort of * who boast that a virus pandemic is great for business.
C’mon, y’all know I’m a ****... just thought I’d reinforce the stereotype.
And despite what you may think about the term “onboarding” its a well know worn out word that replaces 6 words. Time is money, wasted words = misinterpretation.
Get wiv it Boomerz unt Millenials.
A friend has just booked flights to finale for mid March. He says the trails will be quiet. Selfish knob or clever boy . YOU decide….
Is he still going?
Personally I prefer to use "indoctrinating". It sounds much more sinister.
And if, as seems likely, this virus is “out the bag” then it will forever more be in circulation – so then the UK has to maintain this “air lock” forever. Thats the end of trade, travel, and most of our supply routes.
Not really.
Personally I prefer to use “indoctrinating”. It sounds much more sinister.
Have you considered using "re-education"?
A friend has just booked flights to finale for mid March. He says the trails will be quiet. Selfish knob or clever boy . YOU decide….
Just been speaking to my mate Enrico, who guides in Finale. They are not shuttling for fear of any crashes and having to turn up at hospital with a broken finger or worse.
Went to my regular hospital appointment this morning. Bit dispiriting seeing staff members still coughing into their hands and then carrying on as normal. Asked the doc if he'd cleaned his hands (and the equipment he was going to rest on my face) between patients. He said he'd done the former, and I was free to grab an alcohol wipe if I thought wiping down the equipment was necessary.
I'd sat and watched a long line of elderly, vulnerable patients trot into the room before me. Sure, the chances of any of them (or me) having the virus are still pretty low, but I was hopeful that, even in outpatients, the staff would be striving for best practice at this point.
Personally I prefer to use “indoctrinating”. It sounds much more sinister.
🤪
We did use “witch dipping” back in the 90’s.... which was hilarious.
My old Director was a proper nobber, he got away with so much. Name calling a particular specialty.
He’d be punching out of his grave if he heard me use the term “onboarding” too..
🥳🤹♂️
OT but I came back from my induction when I was out in the US a few years back to a cheerful "how did the Kool Aid taste?" which made me laugh. (yeah, I'm a terrible person too)
My son came back from his primary school yesterday to say that the school were using the five extra minutes from ringing the bell early to encourage hand washing. Laudable.
Until it became apparent they were doing this by getting thr kids to wash their hands in four (for over 200 kids) washing up bowls, sharing the water.
Idiots.
My wife (25 years plus in the NHS and departmental lead for infection control at her workplace) gave the headmistress a succinct lesson in infection control in the playground this morning.
My son's class have recently had chickenpox and GE do the rounds. The idiocy and lack of common sense of some people you might expect to have a brain cell or two is amazing.
Mind you, the headmistress is new, and something of a religious zealot, so perhaps the local vicar (who is also an evangelical nutcase) blessed the water first, so it is all fine.
This outbreak is going to be more than fifty percent idiocy control rather than infection control.
Not really.
Not really that it won't forever more be in circulation?
or not really that if your plan was simply to quarantine everyone entering the country you wouldn't need to maintain that forever?
or not really that if you did quarantine everyone entering that its the "end of trade, travel, and most of our supply routes"?
Anyone else believe the government have got their strategy really wrong on this.
The two options are...
A. Aggressively contain as early as possible to try and stop it spreading to eradicate the virus.
B. Let it run through the whole population until enough people are dead/immune that it fizzles out.
We have gone with B., as the Government believes it is impossible to contain. They will try and slow the spread down a bit once it gets going to move the peak towards the summer when the NHS has more capacity. By their own estimates it is likely to infect 20-80% of the population and kill 100K+ people. (Personally I think it will kill more as they are working on a 1% CFR, while the WHO is saying 3.4% and once the free 800 ICU beds are gone it is likely to be approaching 10%)
China on the other hand seem to have contained this in a few months, only 26 new cases today and I’d expect they will more or less be free of new infection in the next few weeks.
China have shown this can be contained, so why aren’t we doing the same. The sooner we act aggressively the more easily it can be stopped with less disruption and less death/suffering.
Maybe Boris just wants us to be totally screwed so he can have his “Churchill moment” and save us from this disaster (that he created).
Greek Orthodox Church inadvertently setting themselves up for a Darwin Award:
“For the members of the church, attendance of the Divine Eucharist and the shared Cup of Life, of course cannot be a cause of transmission of illness,” the body of senior clerics said in the statement. “Believers of all ages know that attending communion, even in the midst of a pandemic, is both a practical affirmation of self-surrender to the Living God and a potent manifestation of love, which vanquishes every human and perhaps justified fear.”
China have shown this can be contained, so why aren’t we doing the same.
Because we are not a communist state where people do what they are told, we are a superior western state with a population who can pigging well do what we want when we want, because we're worth it (and f everyone else).
See also, building hospitals with ICU beds really, really quickly; police enforcing quarantine; keeping essential industry going by making workers live onsite without being able to leave; etc.
One of the pathologists in my dept was in Rome at the weekend, came to work yesterday and has today decided to self isolate despite sitting in the dept all day yesterday 🙄 what a Muppet
China have shown this can be contained, so why aren’t we doing the same. The sooner we act aggressively the more easily it can be stopped with less disruption and less death/suffering.
Summary of the last 38 pages:
1) Wait until China lifts quarantine before you decide it was successful.
2) China did things we "can't" do.
3) the Chinese have put up with stuff that's completely impossible to implement in a country which riots over lack of chicken in KFC
or not really that if your plan was simply to quarantine everyone entering the country you wouldn’t need to maintain that forever?
Quarantine measures, if they come in, will be temporary… to slow the transmission rate, so that health services (and all services for that matter) can cope… and at some point we’ll have working vaccines for this… which we then probably won’t even get to use, if it mutates to become less dangerous, which is a usual pattern. Measures to reduce the impact of a new virus in the long term don’t look anything like quarantine, or lock downs, they are very much short terms measures.
