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Kryton – you must feel 🥳 having been jabbed.
I kind of do and don't. I do feel incredibly grateful, and as currently the sole earner with 2 kids and an immunity compromised wife its good that my chances of getting sick enough to be in away in hospital will be heavily reduced in a few weeks.
At the same time I feel incredibly guilty, I'm way outside the current groups IMO and it worries me there's someone less healthy that could have benefited more from my jab. However I went when I was asked and didn't force the issue, so what can I do?
edit: FM, I think preliminary studies are showing reduced transmission. Also by the time it gets to your age group it will be in an awful lot of arms so personal safety shouldn't be that much of a concern. Your age group won't be 35-40 for ever and need to build immunity. Your age group (and mine fwiw) are still at risk of long covid.
Don't want the jab? Crack on - it's your life. However I think you may find certain aspects of life are no longer open to you. I don't think that's right or wrong I just think this is the practical situation you will encounter and tbh I can't muster any concern.
At the same time I feel incredibly guilty, I’m way outside the current groups IMO
If your missus is immunocompromised, you're getting the jab to offer additional protection to her, it's not for you.
Trying to understand what the need is for the entire population to be vaccinated
You've not read the reports about the risks of long covid in the young and healthy then? Or the fact that vaccinating the less at risk may help the vulnerable who cannot be vaccinated?
Hadn't realised you weren't in the UK, I think every country is seeing this through a different lens.
Trying to understand what the need is for the entire population to be vaccinated
because if you have more people who have a lower viral load (because they've been vaccinated), the disease they pass on (as vaccine doesn't prevent spread) will be better resisted by other people who've also been vaccinated, and so on...The more folk who've been vaccinated, the quicker the effect will be and the sooner we can return to normal. remember that this disease is asymptomatic in a 1/3 of people, so they don't know they're spreading it, those people (often younger) need to be less infectious . The "Lock-'em-up" routine is to slow the spread so as to not overwhelm healthcare services, a secondary effect to to reduce infection rates.
We won't need 2-3 vaccines every year, we will, however probably need an annual vaccine for the next couple of years.
EDIT: but even if we did need a couple of shots a year, surely that would be infinitely preferable to the current situation
If your missus is immunocompromised, you’re getting the jab to offer additional protection to her, it’s not for you.
Is that right? I didn't know that was a measure. She has Lupus FWIW, and can't have the Jab yet / has an as yet unknown reaction to COVID of course. I would have put myself in Group 6:
a chest complaint or breathing difficulties, including bronchitis, emphysema or severe asthma"
I suffered badly from chest infections before I was provided with Clinel/Salbutomal. Anyway its a moot point now.
Don't feel guilty. Anyone offered it should take it.
I think I read that those suffering with long Covid, might be helped by having a vaccine. Something to do with the vaccine killing any residual virus?
All vaccines deliver some form of spike protein to the immune system. Whether it be via on-board production (mRNA and Ox/AZ) or injection of actual protein (Novovax, JnJ, GSK) or even intact deactivated whole virus.
This should serve as a boost to your immune system to activate any pre-existing immune cells that were laid down ready after the first infection (memory B cells). We don't know a lot about Long Covid, but it may be residual organ infection is one driver of pathogenesis. Or not. In any event, having the vaccine will boost cellular and humoral (antibody) immunity and that may help with any residual virus and protect against reinfection (about 5% within 6 months for healthcare workers with high exposure, probably 24mo for the rest of us).
The chickenpox/shingles vaccine works just this way as a boost to damp down the residual dormant virus (and I would if offered! disclaimer I work for GSK so my opinion only, but I've seen bad shingles). Long Covid may, however, instead be an ongoing inflammatory disease that is set off by the viral infection but after clearing virus, tissue damage, such as lung fibrosis or kidney damage, may have little association with virus.
We don't know. Having said that, I was ill again yesterday. Probably unrelated, but I note that when my immune system gets excited fighting off something, I now get pain where I had COVID (lungs) in addition to other areas that are susceptible to the drivers of immunity (called cytokines) (neck and wrist).
Immunology and neuroscience are my favorite areas of research.
For quite a few hours I've had to step away from this thread due to some distasteful posts.
Thank you people for getting it back on track.
March last year 2 scientist friends of ours explained what a pandemic was, so hubby and I had a chat and decided this was going to be long term and our lives wouldn't be normal again, but there would be a new normal.
What I can't understand is why others are thinking it's going to be normal. We will all have to tweak our lives and live a little differently. Obviously it's going to be extremely hard for some. But from reading the posts from people on this thread who are "who are in the know", the new normal won't be as bad as I feared.
Edit - Thanks TiRed - I hope you can fully recover as soon as is humanly possible (saying this as someone who has had post viral fatigue syndrome.)
@kryton57
It might be worth contacting her doc about the vaccine.
My cousin has sle (aged 41) and had the vaccine last week. I'm not sure which one though so it might make a difference
Thanks @singletrackmind & @TiRed so basically unknown but unlikely. Long Covid scares the shit out of me to be honest. I'm 39 so highly unlikely I'll die or be really unwell but months of suffering sounds awful and I feel for those that are. TiRed, I really hope you're back to your M25 laps soon (I think that's you anyway).
The “Lock-’em-up” routine is to slow the spread so as to not overwhelm healthcare services, a secondary effect to to reduce infection rates.
Not referring to lockdowns but the attitude of putting people in prison if they refuse the vaccine. Like I said, using this rhetoric only plays into the hands of the anti-vaxers and will be extremely counter-productuve in the long-run.
because if you have more people who have a lower viral load (because they’ve been vaccinated), the disease they pass on (as vaccine doesn’t prevent spread) will be better resisted by other people who’ve also been vaccinated, and so on
I think I understand. So how can asymptomatic people infect others if they have such a low viral load? Is it viral load which determines not only how bad the symptoms are (hence front-line workers getting extremely sick and dying) but how contagious you are (and how easily detected it is with testing)?
TiRed, I really hope you’re back to your M25 laps soon (I think that’s you anyway).
It may be some time. But I hope so too. Garage full of bikes and trikes feeling unloved. Aerobic exercise is currently 30 min on the rowing machine a few times a week. But I am walking at pace (zone 1/2) for an hour or more daily.
The vaccine is everyone’s first infection experience to prevent serious morbidity disease in those that might otherwise be susceptible (we don’t really know who btw). Passive vaccination with antibodies will be an option for those with compromised immunity.
Expect annual to triannual, declining with time as we build immune experience. One thing that may come out of this is mass combined annual covid and influenza vaccines for all. Uk has a pretty rubbish record with influenza. You won’t need 3x a year, even for modest genetic variants. Ignore the doomongers because the science is still uncertain. But coronaviruses have been around a while. I am however confident that this one will not look hugely different to the other four, albeit at the higher end of the nastiness for some when first infected.
Fatmountain - viral load doesn't seem to correlate with symptomatic or asymptomatic infection.
The presence of symptoms is probably down to something else as if i remember correctly there is not much difference in viral load in infected people with symptoms or not.
The vaccines should reduce viral load and do reduce symptoms but the two may not be directly linked
So how can asymptomatic people infect others if they have such a low viral load?
If you live with some-one who is vulnerable (your 85 yr old gran or your dad with diabetes for example), they may be more susceptible while you show only mild symptom (or none at all). It's a small risk, to be sure, but this all started with one person giving it to another person...
Not referring to lockdowns but the attitude of putting people in prison if they refuse the vaccine.
Has anyone on here actually suggested that?
@grahamt1980 - thanks for the feedback, good to know. She is in contact with her consultant.
Not referring to lockdowns but the attitude of putting people in prison if they refuse the vaccine.
Has that been suggested in France? don't think that's the right way to go about persuading folk to act communally
https://thorax.bmj.com/content/76/1/61
Article on viral load in asymptomatic covid.
Admittedly a small sample size
TiRed
It may be some time. But I hope so too. Garage full of bikes and trikes feeling unloved. Aerobic exercise is currently 30 min on the rowing machine a few times a week. But I am walking at pace (zone 1/2) for an hour or more daily.The vaccine is everyone’s first infection experience to prevent serious morbidity disease in those that might otherwise be susceptible (we don’t really know who btw). Passive vaccination with antibodies will be an option for those with compromised immunity.
As I say, I genuinely hope you recover and sometime soon. It must be so frustrating. I'm pulling my hair out having not mountain biked since the end of October due to where I live but I'm still road biking.
On your second bit, this is what I keep telling myself when I see people saying the vaccines won't work against different variants and it makes me feel a little better. Not ideal but a lot better than nothing at all I think. Thanks again 🙂
The best way to deal with it is to lock up the few people most vulnerable to misinformation and Great Barrington bollox and let the rest of us live our lives, I guess.
Has that been suggested in France?
Has it? No idea. I see this sort of attitude on forums / news comment sections.
Here in Spain there is quite a high level of mistrust in Government and this is probably reflected in skepticisim. I read that only 40% were willing to have it immediately, with a further 16% "wait and see".
Here in Spain there is quite a high level of mistrust in Government and this is probably reflected in skepticisim.
Have any of the vaccines been developed by the Spanish government?
@kyrton57
You won't have had the jab for reasons associated with your asthma, you certainly wouldn't be in group 4 and probably wouldn't even qualify for group 6 from what you just described
The doc will, quite rightly, have used a bit of common sense and used discretion to get you added, based on your wife's situation.
If it was my wife who had a compromised immune system, I would not feel remotely guilty in getting it, even if the evidence it stops transmission is Ltd.
I think you’ve misinterpreted that post you’ve quoted as literal.
I think there's a failure to understand another sense of humour
PS: Precautionary note for pissheads here:
Damn if only I'd read that before opening the celebratory bottle of red last night after my jab.
Why has everyone I know who has had the jab in Scotland had the Pfizer version?
I thought the AZ version was the one we had most of. Are they deliberately giving the Pfizer jab to the older folks as it's proven to be more effective in that age group?
Would certainly make sense if so.
The evidence so far would suggest that might be wise targeting. But it's more likely to be about the AZ distribution being easier to manage, so that one going out to harder to reach areas and groups that aren't the people you know [edit: to be clear, that's a guess, I don't know anything more than you].
I've had Pfizer in England.
Why has everyone I know who has had the jab in Scotland had the Pfizer version?
Cos that's the one we've got the most of
I thought the AZ version was the one we had most of. Are they deliberately giving the Pfizer jab to the older folks as it’s proven to be more effective in that age group?
We will have more AZ eventually but in a twist that everybody in primary care could see coming a mile off, we're giving the Pfizer one in the community PCN vaccine sites, while the Mass vaccine sites (that should be using Pfizer) are using the AZ. Why? because the mass sites can't cope with using the Pfizer vaccine (they don't have the staff facilities, experience etc.) to handle it, so it's being sent to the primary care sites instead. We really don't care about which group are getting which vaccine anyway, at the front line you just dole out what you have.
By the by, I looked at the search codes for group 6, and guess what? Our codes select if you're "YES" - taken asthma meds for the last 12 months, and "YES" - you've got a current asthma diagnosis, you be on the list...Now, that's the case in our PCN currently, it may change, so don't get your hopes up only for them to be crushed later, but it looks to me like you'd be invited for a jab.
I'm starting 10days of self isolation today as my dad tested positive this morning. My parents went for their jab about 10days ago and unfortunately it looks like my dad has managed to contract CV when there. Both of them felt rough last week after the jab, but where my mother recovered my father continued being unwell. Finally got them to make a doctors appointment and they were told to get a test first. My mum can no longer drive and my dad was too unwell to drive, so I took them. Nice to actually see them again, but shit to see my dad in a bad way. Anyway, positive result for my dad, can't quite get my head around how unlucky they've been, they've been shielding since Lockdown 1. I'm hoping my mum dodges it but we'll see how things progress.
Nothing to add to the thread, just, sigh... Needed to type this out for my own sanity.
GENUINE QUESTION (after some posters I spotted on my way to work)...
Does the PCR & Lateral tests detect the virus, the disease or both?
That's shit, TwistedP. Might be worth reporting the positive result to the venue that delivered the vaccine in case there is some lax practice there which needs to be picked up.
@Sefton , the LFT tests for the protein signature of the virus (antigens)
That’s shit, TwistedP
Absolutely this. If they picked it up from the vaccine centre it is incredibly unlucky.
When my dad went they had double booked the entire days vaccinations, so there was a queue 400 meters round the block of over 70s standing out in sub zero temps for an hr. Not ideal, but unfortunately to be expected given the challenge the vaccination teams face
Thanks, how about the PCR test?
so was the poster getting at... a positive result does not necessarily mean you have Covid (but Sars cov 2)?
Split of vaccines in Scotland
A positive test (either lft or pcr) result means that someone is infected with the virus, but it doesn't meant they will have symptoms.
Thanks, how about the PCR test?
Sorry, it looks for the RNA. will confirm that if you have symptoms (loss of smell/taste, continuous new cough, high temp) you have it currently.
Can also be used to test whether you have had it in the past (if you're currently symptom free).
Some more anti-sceptic science debunking. Last year everyone was adamant that prior exposure to the (common) human coronaviruses would provide immunity against SARS-CoV2. That the threshold for herd immunity must be much lower, and... well you get the picture.
A study just published in Cell looking at antibodies in subjects with past exposure to seasonal coronaviruses affords no protection from infection whatsoever. I definitely said just this last year - that one should not assume to be true, that which is only a hypothesis. But presumption is the mother of all cock-ups. Now where's Dr Yeadon's esteemed comments on this paper? He seems to have gone rather quiet of late. Apparently #YeadonWrongAgain is a thing.
For the record, we now know that humans do not have pre-existing protection against SAR-CoV2 infection from past infections. We may have some cross-reactive T cells, but they do not protect. That the drop in contagion in the first wave and subsequently, is driven by contact restrictions rather than widespread immunity, and that vaccination imparts at least six months of protection, likely longer, against serious infection.
Cheers for reference.
Surprised elsevier are giving free access to the articles though
COVID articles are universally free access across most, if not all, publishers. Trying to keep up with medrXiv 😉
True.
The article is interesting.
I wonder if there is something in the coronavirus infection pathway that means that sterile immunity is actually not possible even with vaccines or prior infection, be interesting if they can get larger samples sizes for analysis though.
There are a lot of statements on the need for further studies
Preclinical vaccine challenge studies showed sterile protection for both mRNA vaccines in a species more susceptible to severe disease than humans. I think this was a phenotype not seen with the OX/AZ vaccine, and that protection translated to the clinic. Sterility is really a "nice to have" though, given the widespread transmission of the other four coronaviruses. What the paper really shows is that it OK to form a hypothesis, but one should not base your policy on such a hypothesis without confirmation. That was my original point. Cross-reactivity to nucleocapsid would not be unexpected, but this is not an effective site for neutralisation and prevention of engagement with ACE2 and cell infection.
Oh well self isolation is going well... back at my parents as my dad has taken a tumble and ended up in the bath. His breathing is laboured and there is no way my mum can move him if he has another fall. He's now back in bed and we're waiting for an uncle to drop off something to measure his breathing, oxygen levels.
From the little I've seen i think he needs to go to hospital. We'll see what his doctor says.
What were the preclin studies in? Would assume ferrets, but haven't really read anything in that since leaving a job several roles ago.
I think the sterile immunity but is something that should be made clearer though (not in those terms) as it might make people think a bit more about being careless after having the vaccine.
Worry is if people can understand the significance though
Rhesus macaques https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1
Hamsters are a better model for lung infection and are used widely for studies of passive neutralizing antibodies. People think of vaccines as jab-and-go, but this time it's jab and don't get such a nasty infection if you catch it.
I guess ferrets are not as good a model for coronaviruses.
Used a lot for influenza.
Yeah agreed, i think that point needs to be made a lot clearer on the efficacy and that you can still get ill (just not as bad as it could be)
People think of vaccines as jab-and-go, but this time it’s jab and don’t get such a nasty infection if you catch it.
Any thoughts on whether vaccination will reduce the likelihood of long covid? I get that's probably a hard one to answer given the confusion over what causes the condition, but it would be unfortunate if people were suffering a mild to moderate initial infection but still go on to develop a chronic condition.
Interestingly, there are long haulers out there who believe that being vaccinated has actually cleared their long covid symptoms by somehow normalising their immune response and either stopping it from over-reacting or possibly allowing them to kill off persistent pathogen, which may or may not be the case.
What is slightly depressing - as evidenced by yesterday's 'let the old people die' spat - is that people still seem to think that covid has binary outcomes: either you die or you have a mild flu-like illness, but in reality large numbers of people in all age brackets have been wiped out for months.
Any thoughts on whether vaccination will reduce the likelihood of long covid?
It's a great question. Given the majority of those under 50 will have a mild initial illness regardless of vaccination, if it doesn't protect against long covid it's kinda pointless most of them having it.
I'd assumed (for no good reason) it would protect against long covid as well.
I’d assumed (for no good reason) it would protect against long covid as well.
I'm guessing that the answer is that no-one knows for sure and it will depend on the mechanism(s) behind long covid. There does seem to be some evidence of persisting pathogen, but there's a theory - apparently - that some people's immune systems simply don't work conventionally against this virus and instead take months to clear it, in which case I guess it's a question of whether that's a function of the virus dodging the immune system initially, in which case vaccination may help, or whether it's innate to some people's immune systems, in which case I guess it's a question of whether they will also react to the virus to produce an antibody response.
But I'm far from any sort of scientist, just a worried long hauler :-/
Some studies have found a higher rate than normal of auto immune reactive antibodies in long haulers.
But i don't think anyone knows. It's an unusual one and i don't think anyone knows the mechanism yet.
It is def a worry though that vaccination will likely prevent severe disease, we could still end up with people suffering long term
Some good news - as a vulnerable person, mrs_oab had her first jag just now.
Some odd news - eldest_oab who is a frontline CV19 public testing station staff member isn't going to get a jag ahead of general public. Seems odd.
It is def a worry though that vaccination will likely prevent severe disease, we could still end up with people suffering long term
Quite. It worries me that it doesn't seem to figure in any sort of mainstream discussion of vaccination when it has the potential to be a major health issue going forward. You'd think there'd be some potential for gathering data from vaccine trials - ie: did any of those who were vaccinated and displayed mild symptoms of infection then go on to develop long covid - but I've not heard of anything along those lines.
I had my AZ vaccination today. Currently painless, but I had been for 2 hour XC ski just prior to having it which should give some aches and pains anyway.
Some odd news – eldest_oab who is a frontline CV19 public testing station staff member isn’t going to get a jag ahead of general public. Seems odd.
I thought all nhs staff got it ? I personally know of at least one who works back office and hasn't been into office for 10 months who got it, so seems very odd to exclude the testing staff. I assume he's queried that?
Just spoken (for the first time in ages) to my cousin back in the UK. She works at a mid-Essex funeral directors.
I joked saying she must have been busy. She said she was, although they've dealt with more suicides in the last year than they have covid deaths.
I had my AZ vaccination today. Currently painless, but I had been for 2 hour XC ski just prior to having it which should give some aches and pains anyway.
I'd be interest to know how you feel tomorrow, I was fine all day yesterday but it hit me this morning about 5am. My headaches gone but I'm very achy and fatigued still, and am sacking off bike training tonight.
A colleague had the az one yesterday, didn't get much sleep with flu like symptoms. Apparently feels better this afternoon.
I didn't get anything other than a sore arm from the Pfizer one
She said she was, although they’ve dealt with more suicides in the last year than they have covid deaths.
While that is a horrible anecdote… it doesn’t tell us much. Many, many more people have died from Covid than suicide over the last year. And I have seen no data showing a big rise in the suicide rate over previous years either*, although it is often claimed by people that spread other misinformation about the pandemic that they have increased greatly.
[ *although a rise is expected, as they have been rising year on year for a while now, sadly ]
You're right, it is only anecdotal. But was surprising nonetheless.. Maybe they don't do pick ups from hospitals. I didn't ask.
My SIL is a receptionist at a doctor's surgery in Kent. She had a 60+ healthy couple that were adamant that they didn't want the vaccine but didn't see why that was a reason they wouldn't be able to travel abroad as everyone else will have had it...
I thought all nhs staff got it ?
He's subcontractor not NHS staff.
Apparently the risk assessments say there's not enough vaccine...
Which is not a risk assessment, it's a reason.
To be fair, the control measures they have in place are excellent and it's unlikely theres an issue - now that's more a risk assessment.
While that is a horrible anecdote… it doesn’t tell us much. Many, many more people have died from Covid than suicide over the last year.
Normal year is 6-7000 suicides a year in the UK I think. Even if, God forbid, lockdown caused that to double, it pales next to 112,000 (and counting) Covid deaths, plus all those with long term complications.
I’d be quite astonished if suicide rates haven’t taken a sharp rise. You can’t expect anything else with the social, economic, physical and mental health impacts we’ve seen. I don’t think you’ll see actual evidence for that until the latter part of this year.
But as already said, we’re not talking 6 figures as we are with Covid19.
She said she was, although they’ve dealt with more suicides in the last year than they have covid deaths.
The WhatsApp group from the mental health course I did a few years ago has been silent for months but since christmas there has been messages of 4 out of the 16-strong group making attempts, 2 were successful. We only used the group to coordinate meeting times and places for the 3 month course as it moved about a bit due to the centre undergoing a refit but a few of them kept in touch with each other. Hearing that some have taken the ultimate step has hit home quite hard.
This whole thing is going to put serious pressure on MH services for years to come.
MH, like the rest of the NHS, was creaking before Covid, not sure how it can be funded and just as importantly staffed to cope with the aftermath of the pandemic, plus presumably ongoing endemic levels of Covid.
More taxes - shake the magic money tree - scrap HS2 and all transport infrastructure spending until the NHS is back on its feet. This has shown how important the NHS is to the country.
MH needs attention, my experience with the NHS and childrens services has been stressful to say the least
We can afford all those things.
We have poor public mental health services, especially for those which used to and now more barely do assist schools, because the people who control the spending use private mental health specialists and private education.
Sorry,my post didn't come across as I intended. I know it can be funded, partly as you suggest, but I doubt this government has the will, and money alone won't produce trained staff now when we need them.
My sis in law is a social worker, does CBT, she finished maternity leave in September & her case load has gone through the roof, her & most of her colleagues want out.
She'll most likely already know this but please tell her that those of us who have been through the mental health system as patients appreciate massively what her and her colleagues do for us under incredibly difficult circumstances with regards to their funding and support. Their daily work does genuinely save lives. If she does want out of the profession then that is fully understandable but I can guarantee there are people who she has worked with that are only here still due to what she and her colleagues have done, her work will not have gone unnoticed.
Sorry,my post didn’t come across as I intended. I know it can be funded, partly as you suggest, but I doubt this government has the will, and money alone won’t produce trained staff now when we need them.
Fully get why you wrote what you did, there are bigger issues to deal with right now but we really do have to keep an eye on medium and long-term issues that are being stored up. Suicides may be less than a tenth of the numbers Covid is claiming right now but eventually (I hope!) those numbers will drop to parity, it's then that we can look at funding and resources to help. I hope this is already being considered by someone somewhere within the NHS but understandably they have much bigger immediate issues to deal with.
Aaaaaaaaaand Melbourne is back in lockdown.
More breeches of their hotel quarantine - 5 day lockdown for a huge area - very strict (same rules as the previous one by the looks of it).
Well, whoever breached that quarantine is going to be popular
18 new cases in the community I think..... but they are expecting it to grow
If they knowingly breached quarantine, it's likely they won't give a shit about what people think about them.
Maybe if local businesses could make a claim against them for lost business that would make people focus their thoughts on not breaking rules.
Sorry, probably better described as a “leak” than a breech. We’ve had a few of these - various gaps have been plugged over the past year
MH needs attention, my experience with the NHS and children's services has been stressful to say the least
Mental Health needs wholesale reform and splitting from PCT financial control for a time to get the finances back on track. Suffolk's MH team have been in special measures for 10 years or more! Things have not improved since my daughter attempted suicide 14 years ago.
No one at the top has been sacked in all that time just "lessons will be learned" platitudes after each blunder.
If they knowingly breached quarantine, it’s likely they won’t give a shit about what people think about them.
Maybe if local businesses could make a claim against them for lost business that would make people focus their thoughts on not breaking rules.
BBC report suggests it's a worker at a quarantine facility who was infected, so not an obvious deliberate breach
Imagine having being able to trace 1000 contacts already and bring in a short hard lockdown while you try and get it under control