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That would currently breach employment law.
For existing employees potentially but it could be added to a new employee contract.
Any employer also has a duty of care to those affected by it's business. If an employee refuses to get a jab then the employer would be forced to make reasonable adjustments to ensure health and safety of all concerned. I think as a care provider organisation you'd be hard pushed to defend your position if there was a breakout of covid in your care home and it transpires 50% of the workforce hadn't had the jab.
Or they could just change the law, far easier all round..
There is currently no evidence as to whether the vaccine will stop you passing the virus on so for all we know being jabbed might not help protect the elderly unless they have been jabbed too
Well yes, I'd caveat my comments with if it's proven it doesn't reduce transmission then there would be no point. Although if that's the case I don't really care if the anti Vax lot don't get vaccinated regardless of their employment.
If its not for the greater good then they can take their chances with no impact on me, my family, and everyone else who is prepared to take it.
If you are a care worker looking after the elderly or vunerable, and you aren’t prepared to get a vacination, then you should be made to find another job. No ifs or buts…
I tend to think along these lines too. The law can't force someone to get a vaccine, but equally there's nothing that forces them to work in a particular sector either.
Here’s a little factoid for people who believe that tolerance & kindness are what is lacking in our (uk) collective response to Covid: Taiwan, with a population of a third of the UK has recorded precisely 7 deaths. I wonder how they did it?
Their economy isn’t doing too badly either.
That would currently breach employment law.
The law would need to be changed. Lots of this goes on in Australia already... for other vaccines.. exclusion from professions, schooling, all sorts of things... the idea that the danger of anti-vaccine movements can be done away with simply by presenting the evidence to everyone, one by one, is dead. Yes, explain away, but it's never going to be enough.
There is currently no evidence as to whether the vaccine will stop you passing the virus
Very true. But longer term, if needed, insisting on those doing home visits being vaccinated, if that is shown to be not just beneficial but essential to prevent carers spreading the virus, should be considered. We haven't done nearly enough to protect those that need care this year (I've lost a neighbour to Coronavirus most likely brought into her home by her carers)... if we can do more in future, even if that is 2022 or later, we absolutely should.
I’m sitting here next to my employment lawyer wife.
Her view is that you cannot force somebody to take a vaccine, however you can terminate employment if it is deemed necessary & they refuse. My job is similar - I require yellow fever and other jabs to enter certain countries. CV vaccine may well very added to the list.
If you are a care worker looking after the elderly or vunerable, and you aren’t prepared to get a vacination, then you should be made to find another job. No ifs or buts…
I tend to think along these lines too. The law can’t force someone to get a vaccine, but equally there’s nothing that forces them to work in a particular sector either.
tell 'em they need it to go the the pub/concert/holidays and see how their opinion changes.
In seriousness, there is an interesting moral dilema here. With a non zero chance of health problems from covid (duh) and a different, non zero chance of health problems arising from a vaccine, then you essentially have the trolley problem when talking on the individual/personal level.
Is someone forcing somebody to have a vaccination who has complications with it morally responsible for their fate, even though they are, on average, acting in the best interests of the individual and the general population?
The French are intending to make vaccination a condition for use of public transport
Taiwan, with a population of a third of the UK has recorded precisely 7 deaths. I wonder how they did it?
My friend lives in Taipei, they just got on it from day 1 with track/trace, face masks etc. He's been enjoying life as normal for the last year, out riding, eating, drinking, went to gay pride even. Makes me angry to be honest not because he's enjoying himself but because of how badly our government has handled it in comparison.
Have been looking at the guidance on phasing for vacination. Id assumed that as someone with asthma (use of daily steroid inhaler keeps it under control) I'd be invite along for a jab as part of the 'younger but in clinically vunerable' group, as defined by the nhs as having asthma that is not severe. Certainly this qualified me for the flu jab.
But turns out the vaccine committee folks state you only qualify if you have 'severe asthma', which I assume means regular flare ups despite medication.
Is disappointed. Would be interested to know if any other asthma sufferers expected to be vaccinated despite being under 50?
Is disappointed. Would be interested to know if any other asthma sufferers expected to be vaccinated despite being under 50?
I'm in the same boat but not disappointed, I'd rather it went to someone more vulnerable TBH.
‘younger but in clinically vulnerable’
I think the spread of conditions and vulnerabilities is huge.
While your asthma does make you more vulnerable, there is still a priorities list here based on risk vs benefit. The most vulnerable get it first.
At least you can have it - mrs_oab can have it, but would need it every week ongoing for it to have any benefit! So she will be offered it but won't take it as it is a waste of time and money.
My mother in law has massively compromised lung function but at just a few years under 80 had not been told when she may have vaccine. It seems older age trumps clinical conditions in the prioritisation and I guess that must be based on clinical data.
4m dosesof Oxford vaccine ready to go for uk so things will cascade quite quickly once mhra approve as long as logistics are in place.
Have been looking at the guidance on phasing for vacination.
I looked as this today, prompted by seeing the American version in a BBC article about their new Prez getting it done. Does anyone know why their plan is different to ours? Is it just down to logistics/availability of the vaccine or something else?
RM.
The Far East coped well with the virus because they had a little bit of a practice with SARS, that had a 10% fatality rate.
Apart from a bit of disruption to travel to the Far East, the west didn’t even raise an eyebrow when SARS kicked off.
things will cascade quite quickly
onceprovided mhra approve
It's not a given, like the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna vaccines. I think it likely, even on the lower efficacy data, because without mRNA vaccines, we would have been happy with 62% protection from symptomatic infection.
My FIL was vaccinated yesterday. Over 80, insulin-dependent type 2 diabetic with stroke disability and a twice-daily carer in the house. My MIL (under 80, one comorbidity) was not. Of course she lives with him... Some joined up thinking is clearly missing here.
I’m in the same boat but not disappointed, I’d rather it went to someone more vulnerable TBH
Well yes you can't argue with that logic. But all along we've been informed we are in that vunerable group, yet all of a sudden, after 10 months we are now told we No longer are.
If that's the case fair enough, however I'd be keen to know why. For example, in scotland, due to my asthma I'm a higher priority for a flu jab than someone without a condition in their 50s. Combine this with previous nhs guidance and around covid, the decision to suddenly exclude this population for the priority list seems odd.
Some joined up thinking is clearly missing here.
They've gone for simple, rather than joined up... a simple age threshold... not smart, but can be used to get this going at speed. They can be smarter next year... for now it's just "get it out there". Not saying it's right... it just is. Driven by politics as much as medical knowledge, as always, we can safely assume.
I was living in Taipei during SARS, and pretty much immediately facemasks were mandatory everywhere - with full compliance, temperature checks on entering pretty much any business and people avoided their version of the tube. Its a crowded city and a lot of people live in multiple generational houses & flats so I'm really surprised and impressed that they've got COVID under control so far.
Re the tube avoidance - I was told that the overall death rate went up during SARS because of the increase in road accidents as people jumped on scooters instead - the roads are crowded and fairly lawless compared to the UK.
Her view is that you cannot force somebody to take a vaccine, however you can terminate employment if it is deemed necessary & they refuse
This seems like a bit of a luxury problem at this stage. With Dido Harding in charge I’m not rolling my sleeve up just yet.
Yup, it'll be a long time before there's enough vaccinations out there for mandatory chat to be really relevant... Though, it's maybe a conversation you need to start having a long time before it arises.
I dunno, it's definitely a slippery slope. PAPERS PLEASE! But I can see good reasons for wanting it. I suppose a lot will hinge on how it really affects transmission- it's one thing to say "people without the vaccine have a higher risk of infecting others therefore we should restrict them", but quite another if it's "people with the vaccine can still catch and transmit exactly like anyone else, they just don't personally get as sick from it".
I dunno, it’s definitely a slippery slope. PAPERS PLEASE!
International travel will be the driver here. The pent-up demand to go abroad for a holiday is immense.
Can I asked a stupid question, while you’re here being patient with us muggles TiRed … this new “mutant strain” … has it been ruled out that it might be linked to a species jump, like the Minx one? If so, how?
Yup, it’ll be a long time before there’s enough vaccinations out there for mandatory chat to be really relevant…
aye, if this starts coming to fruition when there are still people who want one but cant get one (next summer?), I can see it becoming a bit of a class war with private tests or the NHS ones prioritising certain areas... including you north of the wall fellas if you mention indyref2 too many times.
The government have had to add a new colour to the Covid map for "Over 800 cases per 100,000". 12 areas are now over 1,000 per 100,000 = 1% of population...
Radio4… Tory politician (Damian Green?) complaining that France gave no real warning that they would close borders. We can do last minute reactions… but we then expect other countries to sit on their hands…
The government have had to add a new colour to the Covid map for “Over 800 cases per 100,000”. 12 areas are now over 1,000 per 100,000 = 1% of population…
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/interactive-map
Colours are a bit screwy on the map currently. Look like they need an update. If you click on the authorities it look way more than 12 over 1000 now.
Medway in Kent - 2902 cases per 100,000. Chuffing Nora!
… has it been ruled out that it might be linked to a species jump, like the Minx one? If so, how?
Every mutation and the deletion have been seen previously. The combination of multiple mutations is of most interest and there may have been within-human selection, possibly in a prolonged infection in someone immunocompromised. I don’t think Denmark were typing strains like we were. But I think it much more likely that this is just natural human virus selection. These outer proteins are plastic. It’s how viruses evolve.
So likely to have all happened within humans, rather than traced and shown to be so? I’ll accept that might be the most confident we can be, I was just wondering if we could be more definitive?
Medway in Kent – 2902 cases per 100,000. Chuffing Nora!
1040 per 100 000..isnt it, but even so!!
Time to start with super clear messaging again…
STAY HOME
https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1341433362897121280?s=21
1040 per 100 000..isnt it, but even so!!
Sorry, you are correct - mixing number of cases and the rate. Phew! Kind of.
TiRed, can you explain why you think your MiL should have jumped the queue laid out in the govt's position? You obviously realise that her having a shot would have prevented (delayed) someone else higher on the list from having it.
Unless you think capacity to administer the vaccine is currently the limiting factor in which case it might have made sense to do two together. Don't believe that is the case but willing to be corrected.
I agree with the post a little above BTW the news about the new variant is extremely worrying and we may only have a month or two two get as much vaccination done as possible. My modelling now suggests we could easily go well past the 1000 deaths a day of the first wave otherwise. In fact it's already looking unlikely we will avoid breaching that threshold.
Tory politician (Damian Green?) complaining that France gave no real warning that they would close borders. We can do last minute reactions… but we then expect other countries to sit on their hands…
I'm sure they would have appreciated a slightly earlier warning about the new variant, too. Documents describing the potential risks have been circulating for quite a while, even though our PM can't be arsed to read them.
has it been ruled out that it might be linked to a species jump, like the Minx one?
The French are intending to make vaccination a condition for use of public transport
Not according to Verran on TV earlier, TF1 news or the press:
Medway in Kent – 2902 cases per 100,000. Chuffing Nora!
Oh 1040 per 100,000 is a little better.
Glad I'm not there.
Oh hang on.
Chuffing Nora!
Medway in Kent – 2902 cases per 100,000. Chuffing Nora!
Yep, I'm smack in the middle of Medway. You local to ground zero too?
@poopscoop
Oh yes. Been following the numbers and been wondering what was going on since November as with every new restriction they numbers kept on rising.
Maybe we should meet up. Oops no.
See you in 2022 maybe
Wow, thought it was bad up here when Blackburn hit 800, what the hell are you lot doing down there?
Some joined up thinking is clearly missing here.
The split households was fairly obvious I'm really surprised it's not been accounted for. Or why it was ruled out.
Gah, my youngest has a positive test in her class last Friday. I think that means we all have to isolate for 10 days?
Not that we are going anywhere...
TiRed, can you explain why you think your MiL should have jumped the queue laid out in the govt’s position? You obviously realise that her having a shot would have prevented (delayed) someone else higher on the list from having it.
I don’t particularly, but she’s a 78yo full time career exposed to further (untested) carers who enter the house twice daily whilst seeing at least 20 other homes per day. And of course the vaccination took quite a logistic challenge, since my FIL can’t travel easily. So have to do it again for his next dose, and then when her turn.
Gah, my youngest has a positive test in her class last Friday. I think that means we all have to isolate for 10 days?
Our kids schools/college only tell the close contacts to isolate, not the whole class? You might be lucky-ish 🤞
@kryton57, this is what annoys me..For 9 months I've been told that I have a condition that puts me at higher risk. Sure the risk is still low, but I bet it's a higher risk than a 55 year-old with no underlying conditions.
Quoted below is From nhs scotland site with guidance from November.... I want to know why, as soon as a vaccine became available, we are suddenly no longer deemed to be an at an increased risk. I think it's a fair question tbh..
It’s important to remember however, that those over the age of 70 without an underlying health condition and under the age of 70 who receive the flu jab for medical reasons are still classed as being at an increased risk from severe illness from COVID-19 and should be particularly careful in following physical distancing
measures along with hand washing and cough hygiene.
Bored of the anti-French BBC talk (I’ve avoided the papers, I dread to think) as regards the block on movement, because of things being clearly out of control in SE England… so depressing. The Jingo-ism is only going to ramp up, if things get worse here, and other countries do what needs doing.
Have we covered this yet?
New South African strain that seems to affect the young more.
South african strain
Looks like Cumbria is warming up - Penrith and the Eden Valley at the moment; tier 2 and it's only Tuesday.
Penrith and the Eden Valley at the moment; tier 2 and it’s only Tuesday.
Next stop Carlisle, Keswick, and Barney/Darlo. Last time I looked it was only popping up in Kirkby Stephen and Brough, and that was only a couple of days ago.
There was a mention in one article of a factory where 50% of workers had it. I'll assume most have families, kids etc. It's easy to see how it can spread in close knit communities, even in sleepy Penrith
"Medway in Kent – 2902 cases per 100,000. Chuffing Nora!"
"Yep, I’m smack in the middle of Medway. You local to ground zero too?"
Work on Medway City Industrial estate, back in June took over the running of the night shift as only four people instead of twenty five on site so cutting my exposure down. Finished early Friday morning and not back until the New Year and quite worried about going back as where I live there is a very low rate 🥺
Here in Sydney we had another good day yesterday: 44,000 tests, which is a record for us (38,000 the day before - about 4x what we would usually do), and only 8 new positives (down from 15 the day before, 28 the day before that).
Our state premier Gladys Berejiklian is making an announcement today about Christmas: will restrictions in the northern beaches be eased? Will restrictions in the rest of Sydney get tightened up (pretty much "business as usual, but wear a mask" at present).
So far - the response is looking really effective: by-and-large they have contained the spread of the cluster to a relatively small area - with only a few cases contracted outside that. The tracking-and-tracing has been excellent: lists of venues, even Bus and train numbers/times connected with infected people are being published regularly, so people can go and get themselves tested.... and they are, in record numbers.
All the positive cases are being genotyped - and they have all been confirmed to come from the same source (America originally) - no announcement yet, but it looks like it was a driver transporting people to/from quarantine.
I remain skeptical about the UKs "super-strain" - I'm open to the idea that it's more transmissible, but it seems awfully convenient that people are now talking about the new strain as the reason behind the UKs current trajectory - and not the governments continuing poor response.
Re: public concerns over vaccines. I've said before that vaccine uptake is going to be a major challenge in the UK. The government need to have started a large scale education program about the basics of vaccine science months ago, and addressing peoples concerns that approval for the vaccine is going to be "rushed" through.
Bluntly: They need to wheel-out David Attenborough to explain vaccines to people. I can't think of anyone else more universally trusted by the British public. Yes there are conspiracy theorists, but I think most of the issue is that your average person on the street doesn't understand GCSE-level biology.
I remain skeptical about the UKs “super-strain”
I hope you are right. Unfortunately that thinking just doesn't correlate with the massive spike we are seeing.
For the first time since it all kicked off im feeling really depressed about the whole thing. Up until the weekend I was fairly convinced that if numbers got too out of hand then lockdown would ultimately work, like it did to stop the first wave.
With this new variant, I'm not so sure lockdown (or at least similar style of lockdown to phase 1) will work.
For the first time since it all kicked off I'm feeling really depressed about the whole thing. Up until the weekend I was fairly convinced that if numbers got too out of hand then lockdown would ultimately work, like it did to stop the first wave.
With this new variant, I’m not so sure lockdown (or at least similar style of lockdown to phase 1) will work.
Yes I understand, there is also the come-down after seeing the light at the end of the tunnel too (vaccine). Everyone in the UK I've spoken to is very worried, and that's an appropriate response I think. Certainly it's going to be a very bumpy ride for the next couple of months.
I think a lockdown will suppress the spread of the virus - but it's a question of how severe, for how long to suppress it sufficiently (and what does "sufficiently" mean?).
I'd be interested to see what the spread of the "regular" strain would have been projected to be with widespread non-compliance with social distancing etc in the run up to Christmas. Anything above that could be attributed to the new strain, anything below is open to debate I think.
I've effectively put both our sets of parents into complete lockdown (Farnham and Poynton) - they are staying home for Christmas, and only going out for walks in the countryside and the occasional supermarket shop. I really don't want any of them to get it, but I REALLY don't want either of them to get it NOW.
We're all going to die of something at some point worrying about it isn't going to help
We’re all going to die of something at some point worrying about it isn’t going to help
Well firstly that may be the case but i think most of us on here have a good few years left yet!
I'm not depressed by the thought of dying (whilst it ain't a great thought it's a 1 in a hundred shot at most from covid). I'm depressed about the massive disruption to my otherwise rather sorted existence up until last Feb.
Hanging out with friends, visits to pub, overseas trips, visiting my parents, it's all pretty much stopped overnight.
Now don't get me wrong, it stopped for the right reasons, and in the grand scheme of things I've been fortunate, folks have been dying by the thousand, made redundant, lasting illness etc etc..
So whilst I am able to maintain a sense of perspective I think im still at liberty to be thoroughly depressed by the thought of 6 - 9 months of more of the same.
I was due to fly home for Christmas yesterday but my flights through Istanbul were cancelled, so back to work I go and another 2 weeks quarantine at site. The wife had bout loads of food for my trip, she has given most of it to food bank and handed other bits out around the village.
I probably won’t get home again until March now
Tony Blair's suggesting speeding up vaccine roll out and using all available does as first dose with second dose when available i.e. April onwards
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/covid-vaccine-tony-blair-coronavirus-b1777845.html
Gah, my youngest has a positive test in her class last Friday. I think that means we all have to isolate for 10 days?
No @kryton57 just your daughter as she was the only in close contact with the positive testing person.
I remain skeptical about the UKs “super-strain”
Yeah, I can understand that attitude, but unfortunately the evidence is really clear-cut. The government response has been poor and remains so, but the new variant is a significantly bigger challenge.
In fact the govt has quite predictably under-responded to this new threat too. We should probably be in a national lockdown and rushing out the vaccine with no holds barred as it could easily overwhelm us very rapidly. We may only have a few weeks now.
I remain skeptical about the UKs “super-strain”
Well nothing changed in behaviour in north Kent, but in November there was a sudden increase in cases especially in schools with lots closing completely.
There isn't a better explanation yet.
And anyone know what's the explanation for south Wales as Merthyr Tydfil had 1300 per 100,000. Is it the new variant as well?
One more passenger on the Hypocrite Express.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55419954/blockquote >
They're full of it.
BBC interviewed an English epidemiologist the other day, talking about Christmas celebrations (before the updated restrictions) and how bad it could cause the spread and people need to really think about their plans and think do they really need to celebrate with others and how zoom can be great etc.
The final question - "Are you celebrating Christmas with anyone?"
Response - "Yes, I'm traveling to spend the time with my 2 children and the grandchildren"The last 10 mins of her preaching about how we should be careful and minimise contacts etc went completely out of the window with that final response.
And anyone know what’s the explanation for south Wales as Merthyr Tydfil had 1300 per 100,000.
No @kryton57 just your daughter as she was the only in close contact with the positive testing person.
Thanks for clarifying. Having argued the toss in this thread about how easy I felt it was to follow the rules I know find myself in window of hypocracy for which I apologise. Surely as we’ve been in contact with her we should avoid contact, especially with the new strain?
Kind a moot point as we won’t be seeing anyone before well, 2021 anyway, case was positive last Thursday.
Surely as we’ve been in contact with her we should avoid contact, especially with the new strain?
Very much yes, but thats not the rules
@kryton, officially no, only if you show symptoms. The reality of course, of whether you can really isolate a 10yo, lock her in her room, feed her by leaving meals outside the door, get her to back track with disinfecting spray every time she comes out to use the toliet....that's what we did for my 16yo recently but she's 16.
So pragmatism is to try to hands-face-space as much as you can, try not to go out - you can't really go out anyway - but if you do do it with caution.
This new variant is more transmissable but it still is the likelihood by %'s that she HASN'T picked it up from her classmate. My daughter was in direct contact with the girl in her class - they are performing arts and were doing physical theatre and dance, touching, speaking, etc., and the 'only' measure was masks.
My daughter then had a test 5 days after contact with her classmate (her work requested as she works in a supermarket and they wanted to know if she could have passed it on in there) and tested negative.
WRT
In fact the govt has quite predictably under-responded to this new threat too.
I said a few pages back this new variant is a RED HERRING - in the sense that i do believe it exists and the transmissability is true but the Gov is hiding behind that and only knowing about it last Friday. It's irrelevant (even if true) - the cases were increasing and we failed to respond to that when we had the chance.
Gah, my youngest has a positive test in her class last Friday.
Same here, but with my eldest in P7. Sent home from school yesterday as one of her friends, which she has had close contact with tested positive on Friday.
We were going to meet up with with my BIL and his family for a walk tomorrow. Not doing that now.
We are in Inverness which up until now has had a pretty low rate of cases.
the cases were increasing and we failed to respond to that when we had the chance.
In truth, cases were not falling during lockdown, rather than rising, in the south east of the country. Only in the few days before Dec 02 did they show an up turn. Hospital admissions were stable.
In other parts of the country they declined. There was no precedent for lockdown with schools open. So making a call on the disparity was harder than hindsight might suggest.
Just been waiting outside my local farm shop which is dishing out the Christmas orders this morning. All the old folk queuing in a tiny corridor, no distancing, no ventilation. Or any sanitiser outside the door. Masks are useful, but they have made people utterly complacent.
wasnt that always likely to happen. the relative usefulness outweighed by the relaxed application of other social distancing measures. never been a fan.
I also cant see past France shutting the boarder as much on a brexit basis as a genuinely spotted opportunity to prevent increased infection - but by the time those figures are available the damage is done 🙁
I said a few pages back this new variant is a RED HERRING – in the sense that I do believe it exists and the transmissibility is true but the Gov is hiding behind that and only knowing about it last Friday.
I agree.
It's transmitted the same way, with no evidence that it's carried by different groups... we have allowed the virus to "trickle" along at a rate where any sudden increase in transmission can not be contained. It was reckless to not try and get prevalence down low... the political choice to just damp down the spread, rather than reduce it, was only ever going to result in spreading this second wave throughout the winter... we were always going to be where we are.
the relative usefulness outweighed by the relaxed application of other social distancing measures
I agree.
The answer isn't "no masks" though, it's the reiteration of the other measures required "as well" as masks. The government sold us masks as a way to not have to social distance, to get us all back commuting and working on site over the summer. They now need to actively counter their own messaging... I suggest the PM's press conferences and the gov's adverts switch to 2 metre distancing again... the 1 metre advice just leads to no social distancing at all.
It's not even that, we knew cases were increasing and we didn't know why. But we knew they were. The cause (transmission) wasn't important but the effect was everything.
They knew this weeks ago, but allowed everyone to get revved up for Christmas. They scoffed at SKS at PMQ's and wished everyone a merry little christmas. Once again, they didn't listen to the scientists of PHE and NHS demanding action.
Can a government be guilty of corporate manslaughter? This is criminal incompetence.
a virus that will cause asymptomatic to mild infection in the vast majority of cases
This is indisputable.
Ignoring the damage it does to everyone else is unforgivable though.
for a disease that’s really no great danger to anyone under 60
I'm afraid this simply isn't true, I wish it was.
The stupidity of people on here blindly following what we are doing knows no bounds.
There is no blindness "here"... there is constant questioning and challenging of what "we" are doing on every single page of this thread.
You're talking to a brick wall I'm afraid. I'm astounded that folk don't/won't see where this is heading, and not just The Great Reset, but you just need to leave them to it. If they only watch mainstream media that's been paid for by the Government then their eyes will be well and truly closed.
How are the guardian paid for by the government?
The only successful countries implemented a HARD lockdown EARLY.
ARESEBISCUUTS/whoever - some of what you say has merit, but you wrap it in mistruths, conspiracy theory and insults. Debate each of your points properly and you will get a decent response.
Debate means that you need an open mind. Are you willing to have yours changed?
If they only watch mainstream media that’s been paid for by the Government then their eyes will be well and truly closed.
The days when there were only two channels on TV are long behind us. There’s also this thing called the internet… it means, with a few pay walled exceptions, that multiple newspapers are at your finger tips. Also, it means published scientific papers and testing is easy to read and compare.
So… some specifics CG? Or just more “blind sheep” nonsense?
Present a view, and listen too others, please stop the hand wringing and name calling.