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If Australia had a population density >10x that which you do, even with you excellent response to the pandemic you would have had a bigger infection rate., which in turn spreads it wider still and so it begins….that’s how pandemics work.
No.
It’s literally the UKs strategy to allow the virus to spread to levels that would have sparked much stronger responses in other countries, much sooner.
The federal and state leaders in Australia were on-the-ball from day 1 (straight of the back of another national crisis).
What’s characterised the UKs response is waiting too late to take action, and then that action being woefully insufficient.
There was a day back in June when Melbourne had the same infection rate as the uk. The difference is that this sparked a super strict lockdown in Melbourne - and in the uk everybody started going on their holibobs and eating out to chuffing help out.
Sorry - this is obviously something that really pushes my buttons
What’s characterised the UKs response is waiting too late to take action, and then that action being woefully insufficient.
This.
Michael Rosen on Radio4 Today very touching this morning. Worth a listen. Both on the negative experience of having this disease, and the positive response of other people towards him while he struggled. Somehow still manages to be funny and warm while talking about learning to walk again, and mourning his pre-Covid self that he has lost. The man is a legend, and oh so human.
I'm not saying the UK response has been adequate, far from; nor that Aus has been excellent. And don't mean to push buttons, but:
There was a day back in June when Melbourne had the same infection rate as the uk. The difference is that this sparked a super strict lockdown in Melbourne
Define infection rate? Whether R number or cases per 100,000 people, if the people are confined to a small area the likelihood of spread is higher.
TLDR. UK response has been very poor. Aus has been excellent. But there are other factors that have enabled Aus's response to be EVEN MORE effective, and simply saying that Melbourne has 5 million inhabitants compared to (sic) 7M in London is over simplistic.
(flipside and I am genuinely very angry at the UK's response....)
Knowing what our city's population density is like, that's another reason why we should have had stronger restrictions.
Sorry to read your news PJM, try to make some time for you in between supporting those around you.
I'm just about managing as there's wife and 2 children to provide an absorbent shoulder for.
News from Ulster not so good yesterday as MIL sats show blood oxygen at 90% with oxygen and 70% if she takes the nasal tubes off. After Friday we thought that a corner had been turned but it looks like we're in for a series of short rallies and further subsidence as our lovely matriarch subsides in the West.
UK response has been very poor. Aus has been excellent. But there are other factors that have enabled Aus’s response to be EVEN MORE effective,
Which does not excuse or justify our failure to make the extra efforts required to step up our own response to a level that would have been more effective, in terms of closing borders, quarantine, lockdown and test and trace. Especially test and trace.
like I said in the next post
I’ll of course agree that there are really significant differences in demographics between the UK and Australia.
I’d agree that these differences should have shaped the UKs response.... so did they? What did the UK do over and above what Australia have done to reflect this difference?
I agree comparing two countries' responses isn't particularly helpful, which is why I mentioned the spread of the major cities and the crucial state borders. IMHO our Prime Minister (Scott Morrison - or 'Scotty from marketing') wasn't particularly good, he's tried to politicise things. I've never been a fan of the state system but it was very important. When everyone was saying borders had to be opened Queensland refused and managed to pretty much shut out the virus. No one from into Brisbane from Sydney - i can't see that you could do the equivalent in the UK.
But international borders should have been managed better by the UK. And the selfish greed of people who think they 'deserve' holidays more than the people they potentially effect when they return makes my blood boil.
I was impressed by the likes of Sam Hill and Conor Fearon deciding not to travel this year (ok, maybe they didn't see the point of a token 2020 season, and equally disappointed by Tracey Hanna on a Downtime podcast saying she thought Australia was 'a bit over the top' about the whole virus thing. Tell that to PJM1974 and the thousands of others who've lost loved ones as an indirect result of poor government decisions this year.
Going back a few steps, has anyone actually heard of fines being issued?
And I can tell you, as the husband of a social worker, there is not a snowballs chance in hell of kids being taken into care for not going to school at the moment
Well the threat is enough for most people, especially carers who may be in an uncertain position.
Why else do they keep reminding us of the absence policy?
Even the COVID flowchart they issued has "NO NOT TAKE UNAUTHORISED ABSENCE" in bold capitals.
Perhaps you don't realise but the ever present threat of being taken from a loving parent and put into care is terrifying.
When will people aged 49 and under with no under lying health issues get vaccinated?
Probably not (if ever) all the info I have stops at over 50 with no medical conditions. But those folk are “group 9” we’re only just getting going on groups 1&2
What’s characterised the UKs response is waiting too late to take action, and then that action being woefully insufficient.
There was a day back in June when Melbourne had the same infection rate as the uk. The difference is that this sparked a super strict lockdown in Melbourne – and in the uk everybody started going on their holibobs and eating out to chuffing help out.
Sorry – this is obviously something that really pushes my buttons
Back in March (Crankworx) NZ was quarantining....
Define infection rate? Whether R number or cases per 100,000 people, if the people are confined to a small area the likelihood of spread is higher.
It's a red herring IMHO. Measures have got to reflect population density.
What WE should be doing is MORE...rather than Hancock just looking for excuses why we aren't doing as well as the rural outback. (or wherever)
Perhaps you don’t realise but the ever present threat of being taken from a loving parent and put into care is terrifying.
Can I repeat - who is threatening to take kids from a loving parent for not attending school at the moment? Unless there is a likelihood of actual immediate harm, it takes months if not years for a SW to get a child removed, so whoever is peddling that level of twaddle needs to be told to do one!
I haven’t read all 500 pages of this thread but I’ve dipped in now and again and I’m always amazed how little diversity of opinion there is.
Have you bullied out all the cynics and conspiracy theorists, or is STW really that depressingly homogeneous?
It seems unlikely given what I see around me in the real world, on and off the bike.
Why is nobody here questioning the stats and the vaccines and the lockdowns? Why is nobody here advocating that the government should do less, not more?
It’s like entering some alternative reality...
Ask away with any specific question or concern you have... there are people (not me) with real scientific and/or medical knowledge and experience contributing to this thread, and also people (including myself) with real experience of what this virus can do to people who get it. So... question away... but you'll need to be specific about what you propose, rather than that we just "do less".
Why is nobody here questioning the stats and the vaccines and the lockdowns? Why is nobody here advocating that the government should do less, not more?
Because science. Hth.
Interesting large parts of the media are up in arms about London going into tier 3 and the damage it'll do, yet they seemed rather quiet about the rest of the UK.
Related, we really are going to pay for this Christmas relaxation aren't we? Goodbye January and February...
Why is nobody here questioning the stats and the vaccines and the lockdowns? Why is nobody here advocating that the government should do less, not more?
Because we have real experts in the field on here, from around the world in fact, who have answered those questions as we've gone along. Backing them up with real data. Lots of decisions have been questioned and argued over if you follow the thread in more detail. And we're still disagreeing on stuff, but doing it in a mostly civilised and rational way
Totally agree lunge. Also, given that, so I've heard, a lot of the current rise in cases is school age groups, will the inevitable January+February lockdown be lockdown hard, or lite?
Why is nobody here questioning the stats and the vaccines and the lockdowns? Why is nobody here advocating that the government should do less, not more?
We'll, here's your platform, we're all ears.
Interesting large parts of the media are up in arms about London going into tier 3 and the damage it’ll do, yet they seemed rather quiet about the rest of the UK.
I was amazed that football clubs in the south had fans in given the virus prevalence.
Haven't seen this article discussed here (but maybe it has)
Basically it's about Johnson meeting with herd immunity proponents and Rishi Sunak and deciding not to have an early firebreak, costing thousands of lives.
I was amazed that football clubs in the south had fans in given the virus prevalence.
Yeah, seems an odd decision, though it does seem that as long as you keep people outside the transmission rates are low. I don't think those events have made much difference to the rates, though you could argue about the message it sends out.
To be fair, London was always going to end up in tier 3, their rates were high and going up after lockdown 2.
I was amazed that football clubs in the south had fans in given the virus prevalence.
IIRC Jenny Harries' argument was that anyone not sitting in a football stadium would automatically go to the pub. Probably wearing a flat cap and with a whippet in tow.
Anyone who ventures a different opinion will get shut down on here. Apparently if you have concerns about this pandemic/plandemic then you’ll be compared to a Brexiteer.
Umm, no, but if you expect conspiracy theories advanced without evidence to be entertained in the same measure as the contributions of epidemiological experts probably you're going to be disappointed.
With that caveat - go for it.
The football club thing is because London is still in Tier 2 due to the lag in data leading to what would seem to be obvious decisions.
We are going to be screwed again in January/February, and this time I don't see how schools can be kept open, however much that may be a good thing to aim for. Eldest is in his A level year - any more disruption this year, or a lockdown, and I don't see how exams in England can go ahead.
C_G - I'm happy to read and comment on your considered view based on evidence, the same as I have for others on here. There certainly shouldn't be any insulting or slapping down of other opinions. However, the tone of your post suggests that you are not happy seeing information that doesn't fit with your own opinion, so you do potentially come across as wanting it both ways maybe?
Anyone who ventures a different opinion will get shut down on here. Apparently if you have concerns about this pandemic/plandemic then you’ll be compared to a Brexiteer.
Sorry, c_g, but no they won't. I have several times questioned the government responses wrt needing the economy to keep functioning, and the impact that will have in the long term on mental health / poverty and outcomes. Some have disagreed, others have also added the same concerns. But you need to come with evidence and argument, and be prepared to listen to it as well.
And the moment you call it a plandemic, you start to forfeit your views being debated as rationally.
Can I repeat – who is threatening to take kids from a loving parent for not attending school at the moment? Unless there is a likelihood of actual immediate harm, it takes months if not years for a SW to get a child removed, so whoever is peddling that level of twaddle needs to be told to do one!
I spent the entire time from 11-16 living in terror
for us it all started when my mum was ill and had to go into hospital, then they started saying we had to have our own place to live (as we were stopping with grandparents and uncles and aunts), next thing they are showing you dolls and trying to trick you into saying someone is touching you or they send the police around to accuse the kids of cashing a giro or something.
So sure it takes months or years but it is months/years of extreme unpleasantness and everyone knows what happens to the kids in care.
Haven’t seen this article discussed here (but maybe it has)
Basically it’s about Johnson meeting with herd immunity proponents and Rishi Sunak and deciding not to have an early firebreak, costing thousands of lives.
Well, you know they never changed the strategy when Gove goes on TV and barefaced say's they never had a herb immunity strategy and were following the science but Vallance was lying.
My kid has started calling it "Hunger Games" at school. He's in the last 10 in his class now.
I'm quite happy for anybody to challenge my view. Show me evidence and you might change my mind. Start quoting Facebook experts though, and you can expect some strong responses - backed up by evidence/expert opinion/science.
Im up for a discussion on CV/Lockdown/Brexit/Trump/Rigged elections - anything at all really. I tend to find the other side to me aren't interested in facts/evidence though.
plandemic
Get. In. The. Sea.
Chrispo - if you did read the 524 pages, you'd discover it isn't just one viewpoint at all. Most discussions have been had. What you will find is that rational scientific evidence generally points one way.
I think most of us acknowledge that, as Prof Chris Whitty has often said, "There is no Simple Solution"
Lockdown has its negative sides, and we can't save every life. The problem with "Just letting it Rip " is that hospitals will be overrun and that leads to far worse outcomes. So many Healthcare Professionals have already lost their lives fighting this horrible disease and I think we owe it to their colleagues to do our best for them.
I spent the entire time from 11-16 living in terror
for us it all started when my mum was ill and had to go into hospital, then they started saying we had to have our own place to live (as we were stopping with grandparents and uncles and aunts), next thing they are showing you dolls and trying to trick you into saying someone is touching you or they send the police around to accuse the kids of cashing a giro or something.
So sure it takes months or years but it is months/years of extreme unpleasantness and everyone knows what happens to the kids in care.
I'm really sorry for your experience, which must have been horrendous. However, my question was, who is saying kids will be taken into care if they don't go to school because of Covid worries? Who is actually threatening this from a position of authority, rather than your own understandable fears based on your own terrible experience 20 years ago?
London to Tier 3
Hancock to make a statement shortly.
(Tiers of a Clown playing in the background in my head)
I’m quite happy for anybody to challenge my view. Show me evidence and you might change my mind. Start quoting Facebook experts though, and you can expect some strong responses – backed up by evidence/expert opinion/science.
I think this sums up my view as well.
However, I think this place can be a little quick to critisise and demand evidence for someone's opinion. I've certainly felt on occasions that any comments about lighter restrictions or putting more emphasis on saving the economy and protecting the youngsters are quickly met with nastiness.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plandemic
The casual use of that word is not something that does you any favours if you wish to be taken seriously.
London to Tier 3
Hancock to make a statement shortly.
(Tiers of a Clown playing in the background in my head)
I get it, but it seems pointless, in a few days people will be going up and down the country when surly the whole country will be in lockdown from Jan. It is what it is, no more Surrey hills rides for me for a few weeks.
I get it, but it seems pointless, in a few days people will be going up and down the country when surly the whole country will be in lockdown from Jan. It is what it is, no more Surrey hills rides for me for a few weeks
There's a few rumours that Johnson is debating cancelling the Christmas exemptions despite cases falling in most places bar London. I'm not convinced he will as he so wanted to be the guy who saved Christmas, but I'd not rule it out. It's not like he has previous for making ill-informed, last minute decisions...
There’s a few rumours that Johnson is debating cancelling the Christmas exemptions
I think the genie is out of that particular festive bottle. People will have already made plans, ordered food and drink etc. Johnson doesn't seem happy enough being unpopular to be on the front of the Sun dressed up as the Grinch.
When will people aged 49 and under with no under lying health issues get vaccinated?
Don't plan on anything before 3Q21. Possibly with influenza dual roll-out. Supply won't get up to speed until then.
However, I think this place can be a little quick to critisise and demand evidence for someone’s opinion. I’ve certainly felt on occasions that any comments about lighter restrictions or putting more emphasis on saving the economy and protecting the youngsters are quickly met with nastiness.
Something we've all probably been guilty of on here, and not just on the Covid thread.
I can't see how Boris can't cancel Christmas. Quite a few scientific advisors have gone public on the risks, the NHS has gone public on the risks, he's got to weigh up whether he looks a bigger buffoon cancelling Christmas now, or having to drag out Tiers or impose a stricter lockdown in January/February.
However, I think this place can be a little quick to critisise and demand evidence for someone’s opinion.
I agree, but with caveats
1/ when the case for is supported by lots of evidence*, including from some very auspicious correspondents, opinion with no correlating evidence to back it up is not a particularly convincing counter. 'It's just what I think' or 'some bloke in the pub said' doesn't have the same veracity.
2/ It's OK (as I have done) to ask a question. You don't need to actually be on the other side to be able to ask what the other side might be. As long as you're prepared to listen to the evidence both for and against. Not knowing but wanting to find out is a fair place to be.
3/ Rebuttal of your opinion is not a personal attack (should not be). It's just pointing out the flaws in your argument. Sadly, the weaker / less well evidenced arguments get the stronger rebuttals, which seem to upset people more.
4/ Positing an opinion and then getting counters to it is how debate works. If you just want validation, you need to find a different chamber. Yes- I'm aware this site is a bit echoey at times but I'll say again, my queries have usually been met with fair and polite argument.
* unless you genuinely believe this is all a massive conspiracy. But no amount of evidence is then likely to convince otherwise.
I get it, but it seems pointless
Hmm. I know of several people who have been travelling out of a Tier 3 area into London for “drinkies”. Probably not that many people, but it doesn’t take many people to move the virus about and cause problems.
To quote someone on Twitter:
"Wow London get 1 day notice to lockdown hospitality because the retail shops have been full. "
Not an unfair point.
I think this little bit of panic is over the new strain of Covid thats causing the London spread. Any 2 week of lockdown though is better than none for the disease.
Retail can still open if they have a door fronting the outdoors e.g. not enclosed in a shopping mall.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">retail premises may open, other than shops situated inside closed premises that cannot be accessed directly from the street...</span>
Something we’ve all probably been guilty of on here, and not just on the Covid thread.
Quite, the vitriol again me yesterday in the Brexit thread when I suggested a popular poster was wrong to suggest stockpiling was amazing. It got to the point where I felt I had to leave and learn deeply about British and European politics / BJ's life history just to defend myself, obviously I just didn't bother.
The only person I can recall who’s been polite and non-judgemental about a post I made was TiRed, for that I was grateful.
Blush. Thank you. In C_G's position, I might be looking for a larger safety database on vaccination too. For example, subjects with KNOWN hypersensitivity were deliberately excluded from the mRNA vaccine trials because the PEG coating of the nanoparticles used may induce an undesirable hypersensitivity response. Those people will have other options available in good time, perhaps for them waiting is a better decision - benefit-risk. I don't believe in forced vaccination of anyone. But other countries may restrict your travel options if you are not vaccinated.
Masks have been an interesting one. The effect was modest, possibly due to increased contacts, in a large and controlled trial. I think it's reasonable to think there will be an effect, notably in crowded public transport, possibly secondary schools and shopping centres, but expecting them to instantly reduce transmission to nil is a fallacy.
I am always happy to debate the non-mainstream views. And how the government has performed. I've repeatedly said there are no good choices, and that a reasonable expectation for return to normality is about 18 months. Over that period we will see an accumulation of approximately 150k more deaths than we might have normally seen. Without contact restrictions, you can at least double that number. Indeed an early return to normal would see an impressive rise, even with vaccine rollout.
Often debate has focussed on extremes. The truth is 1) always more complex and 2) a compromise of multiple factors. Yes there have been times when the epidemic has grown exponentially, Yes the tests may provide false positives, but people are admitted to hospitals on SYMPTOMS before testing, no there is not mass immunity but there will be some areas with higher past exposure than others. Does that matter? Seemingly not looking at the rapid filling of hospitals at the moment.
And I comment on lockdownskeptics.org from time to time, usually with plenty of down-votes, but I don't hold the record 😉
[tl:dr] you can't employ the scientific method without being skeptical. But there are some pretty broad and robust conclusions nine months into the epidemic.
Any knowledge on the new strain TiRed?
When will people aged 49 and under with no under lying health issues get vaccinated?
I work in a borough population 240000
Over 80s- 11000
Vaccines deliveries due tomorrow- 975
Don’t hold your breath.
As ever the government is making promises it will struggle to deliver. (Or more accurately we will struggle to deliver on its behalf)
To quote someone on Twitter:
“Wow London get 1 day notice to lockdown hospitality because the retail shops have been full. ”
Obviously that person didn’t have to happen past borough market at the weekend where hospitality was absolutely caning it.
What are the collective's thoughts about hospitality being kept closed and retail staying open?
To me, it seems that retail is largely uncontrolled, busy and inside, it can also largely be done online, certainly most none-essential stuff can be.
Hospitality is certainly no worse for transmission than retail and arguably much safer.
So why is the government insistent on closing on and keeping the other open?
Any knowledge on the new strain TiRed?
Evolutionary Biology is ALWAYS looking for an edge - survival of the fittest (virus). New strains may emerge that have a selection advantage and spread faster. Alternatively changes in the spike protein may make detection by PCR more challenging - primers might miss the mutation.
What isn't missed is symptoms of hypoxia leading to hospital admissions. The current epidemic in SE, London and the East of England has shown a stubbornness to turnover as it has in other areas. Is that due to a new strain? Children spreading the virus on the tube in London, shopping in Bluewater and Lakeside? Probably too early to tell.
But Tier 2 has not been enough in London to turnover the growth of hospital admissions, so the intervention has merit.
plandemic
That's pretty clever. Someone accuses everyone posting here as unquestioning and in constant agreement (when the truth is that there's a multitude of always changing views and opinions on the response in this country and elsewhere)... and so as to prove them right, you use a word that we can all agree is dumb as hell and will universally condemn. I mean, that was your intention, right...? You couldn't honestly be here to tell us that you think this epidemic was intentional, and planned... could you? To make money out of selling a vaccine? To stop us grouping together in pubs and planning a coup? For what reason?!?
Eldest is in his A level year – any more disruption this year, or a lockdown, and I don’t see how exams in England can go ahead.
There are plenty of A level students in parts of Britain who will have had half their on site teaching for their courses taken from them... even if they're lucky enough to be onsite after Christmas and all the way up to next Summers' exams... those exams should already have been planned to be replaced or supplemented by other assessment measures. Waiting 'till the last minute to make that change, which let's face it is what the Westminster government have been doing all the way though this public health emergency, is an obvious crisis making failure that most people can see coming months in advance.
The current epidemic in SE, London and the East of England has shown a suborness to turnover as it has in other areas.
sorry, (genuinely) is that a typo or a word I need to google - I don't understand and can't imagine what the right word would be?
Hospitality is certainly no worse for transmission than retail and arguably much safer.
I want to agree with you... because I'm very scared of how much of our pub culture will be lost over this period... and I bloody love pubs... and you are right that shops can shift to distance selling in a way pubs can't... but...
...it's about time spent in the proximity of others... no one in their right mind would spend as long in a shop as they would in a pub. Yes, there are exceptions to that... but a night down the pub is higher risk than popping into a shop for 10 mins.
I don’t understand and can’t imagine what the right word would be?
Stubbornness?
apologies for typo (corrected), yes stubbornness. I was hopeful for Lockdown with schooling, but London only flattened, it didn't shrink the epidemic.
stubbornness to turnover?
Still don't get it?
It's very sad that CG and others feel there's no room for debate here, that's wrong. Science tells us what is happening bit doesn't determine how we respond. We choose to be guided by science. Guided. We must consider the other factors though, and insults to anyone offering a view are abhorrent.
ah! got it now, I was totally blinded with turnover as in financial income! Couldn't see why the virus was being linked to financial measures other than the more shopping people are out doing the more it's likely to spread!
So the rate of infection is not changing wrt lockdown measures anywhere near as fast as we would expect.
As you were.......
Over 80s- 11000
Vaccines deliveries due tomorrow- 975
12 days to vaccinate all over 80s sounds good to me (assuming the delivery tomorrow is not a one off)
Anyone who ventures a different opinion will get shut down on here.
I wouldn't dream of shouting down someone's different opinion on here, there's far too many folk that are way cleverer and have more subject knowledge than I do. (Not a high bar, admittedly).
However, plandemic conspiracy theorists can, in their own words, 'do one'.
those exams should already have been planned to be replaced
Yep.
Good news my mum doesnt have covid, bad news she's still very ill, other bad news, boy in my sons class (his best friend) tested today, my plan to take mum home so I could go back to work has stalled.
12 days to vaccinate all over 80s sounds good to me (assuming the delivery tomorrow is not a one off)
It’s a one off as far as I’m aware. And it will take 3 days to vaccinate 975. It has taken three days to book all the appointments. There isn’t enough spare capacity to do more. Again, don’t believe the government spin. It’s not happening 8-8 7 days a week, it’s happening 10-6 three days a week... these are the ones that can travel to the vaccine site. Not the housebound or in care homes... they will take a lot longer
At least that’s the picture where I work. I delivery of vaccine per site. Then nothing. I might be wrong but there are no more appointments left for me to book people into. I know cos I used the last one today. Booked a lady in, went to arrange for her husband, no appointments left.
It will take weeks to vaccinate the over 80s.
Evolutionary Biology is ALWAYS looking for an edge – survival of the fittest (virus)
Can't see the unrivalled behavioural purity of Essex and Kent providing much of a selection pressure.
More likely to be people not giving a stuff about the kind of measures that have at least slowed it down a bit elsewhere.
Masks have been an interesting one. The effect was modest, possibly due to increased contacts, in a large and controlled trial. I think it’s reasonable to think there will be an effect, notably in crowded public transport, possibly secondary schools and shopping centres, but expecting them to instantly reduce transmission to nil is a fallacy.
May I suggest that masks are like bike helmets - they offer some modest protection while tempting people to take much higher risk behaviour? 🙂
I wouldn’t dream of shouting down someone’s different opinion on here, there’s far too many folk that are way cleverer and have more subject knowledge than I do. (Not a high bar, admittedly).
Complains about being compared to a brexiteer then mentions main stream media and cancelling the BBC in the same post.....LOL.....I need to write a book titled "How Everything Became Satire and Stupidity Became Everything"....it'll be much more interesting than Rosa Brooks book.
And I comment on lockdownskeptics.org from time to time
Wanders off to have a look....
Christ there's a section of the forum for dating a lockdown skeptic....no one for me though, middle aged men arent my thing....shudders and feels the need to sanitise my eyes!!!
May I suggest that masks are like bike helmets – they offer some modest protection while tempting people to take much higher risk behaviour? 🙂
Aye, that's a very valid analogy.
Aye, that’s a very valid analogy.
You are joking. I'd be a mincing blue-route mountain biker, helmet or not! My skills are in numbers 😉
But we introduced masks during a period of unlocking, people were hoping for a sharp decline that did not materialise. I'm still happy to wear one despite the terrible oppression of my liberty, so I can buy a paper in the shop of my elderly friend. Any a helmet (except on the trike, occasionally).
Thing is, wearing a bike helmet protects me somewhat from the other idiots - wearing a mask mostly protects the other idiots from me, iirc.
Aye, that’s a very valid analogy.
Agreed. Which is why, in recent months the government has always stressed “space” when talking about “face”. Masks with physical distancing is what is required, rather than wearing masks instead of social distancing. They got the messaging wrong when they, after the first “lockdown” sold masks as an alternative to social distancing.
But, as others have said… wearing a mask is a community measure… not so much a self protection measure… so I’d go for the sticking to speed limits analogy…
They are a small imposition that, combined with keeping a safe distance, protects others more than myself.
Lol!
I got to the stage a while ago of really not feeling 'right' out and about without one on! It also registers every time I watch something on TV and there's loads of folk indoors together!
Hospitality is certainly no worse for transmission than retail and arguably much safer.
I've not seen any stats for that either way. It's a mystery.
you use a word that we can all agree is dumb as hell
While I don't disagree with you, using language like that doesn't exactly encourage debate
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-55267010
does this mean
1) cases are actually tiny at universities
2) they are tiny as the virus has already swept through universities months ago
3) this test is not fit for purpose
4) other?
I read Cambridge also tested thousands of students and got hardly anything?
...without the above results would we all be blaming/ranting about how the students coming home for Christmas are 'to blame'
using language like that doesn’t exactly encourage debate
Agreed. Using the word “plandemic” doesn’t encourage debate. Although I did ask questions about it… to give it a go… I fully admit I didn’t expect answers.
Contact restrictions work to stem transmission. Students have unfortunately had few contacts outside of their hall/house. Hence any hall epidemic may have passed. There is little or no spread from uni to community.
@sefton
2.
My son at mmu in Manchester. Locked in to halls for 2 weeks in early September. Everyone of them tested at that time. 50% positive he reckons. (His flat were all negative).
Since then hardly any new infections. I’ve been putting his postcode in the gov.uk website recently. Rates too low to measure.
1) cases are actually tiny at universities
Manchester students have made the most of it and stuck to their small groups, and not mixed with others. Sad, but they’ve made the most of it. I don’t know anything about Portsmouth or elsewhere.