And item 4 is the winner.
Maybe it’s the tone of the debate that is stopping me getting the facts?
Whataboutery meets whataboutery.
Do you trust Cummings and Johnson not to give in to temptation with stuff like this?
That's my parting question. I know where I stand on this.
Are you happy with a ban on all gatherings off more than two people? No, me neither. …but I’m living with it to flatten the curve.
Does that mean you are happy with any restriction whatsoever on your freedom?
We will all install the google/apple one anyway
Deffo this. I suspect there will be several tracking apps and if there are most of us will use several, unless an obvious leader emerges and we'll all use that.
I have no problem with NHSX but I doubt they will emerge as the Google/Whatsapp/Facebook/MS Windows of the bunch.
but I’m living with it to flatten the curve.
False choice. You have to be at home (it's the law) but now your saying you're happy to let a group of people you know have a track record of manipulation of data a free hand to do what they want with it, regardless of the fact there's a better, safer and more productive way of doing it.
I'm all for an App, and the value it brings.
Do I want Cummings and co to write it when there's an alternative 'off the shelf' from a more trusted alternative.....
(more trusted than Cummings and co.....what a benchmark!!)
Does that mean you are happy with any restriction whatsoever on your freedom?
If you'd told me 6 months ago everyone in the uk would live under house arrest for 7 weeks+ and I hadn't join in whatever armed opposition was occurring I wouldn't have believed you. So, so far, to my surprise, seemingly yes.
If an app helps reduce these drastic restrictions on freedom I'm well up for it.
Google & Apple said that they intend to limit each country to having only one app available in their store, because this only works if only one app is in use in the population. They said they are open to governments persuading them to have regional ones, which you can see working for very large and clearly geographically segmented populations.
A huge proportion of smart phone users need to be hand shaking with each other for this to work. Multiple non-interacting apps in the same population will not work. The government has effectively stopped the Google&Apple solution from being used here.
I suspect there will be several tracking apps and if there are most of us will use several, unless an obvious leader emerges and we’ll all use that
There won't be more than one using the Apple/Google tools.
(4) We will all install the google/apple one anyway because we will want to travel
Except Google & Apple are just building the APIs to provide this functionality in the OS. You'll still need an app to call those APIs, and G/A have said they'll only support one app per health authority. So in short there won't be a standalone Google/Apple version - the only way that gets used in the UK is either NHSX abandon their approach to adopt the G/A APIs or someone like the Kings/ZOE app picks up the G/A APIs - but then they won't have the support to do the contact tracing etc so what you gonna do?
Or even simpler – we identify a guy in a marginal constituency who interacts with a lot of other people we have previously idenified as swing voters. We bombard him with propaganda, tailored to his interests using the Facebook information we already hold about him.
So nothing they can't do already. And as for the protest example, nothing they don't already do via facial recognition.
Happy for a split in the thread, although this is a bit crossover.
False choice. You have to be at home (it’s the law) but now your saying you’re happy to let a group of people you know have a track record of manipulation of data a free hand to do what they want with it, regardless of the fact there’s a better, safer and more productive way of doing it.
I'll use the the better, safer and more productive way of doing it, of course.
If the NHSX offering proves popular I'll use that as well. Clearly, there's no point if I'm the only one using it. The govt have all of my medical data, my tax data, my education data, all of my vehicles details. I have to put a number on my car to uniquely identify it.
I’ll use the the better, safer and more productive way of doing it, of course.
No, you won’t we able to unless the UK gov changes their approach.
The issue here isn’t that the government will know where you were a week last Tuesday, it’s that they may (will) use the information they gather to undermine democracy.
How, exactly? Spell it out for us hard of thinking? What will they have that they don’t already have from social media, tax and employment records, NHS records?
I have concerns with the proposal, I can see the arguments for something better, but I’m not seeing an obvious opportunity the clear and present danger that makes me think I wouldn’t download the app.
A lot of you seem to be mixing up your hatred of this wretched government with an over searching conspiracy theory that makes you come across a little bit “tin foil hat”.
The App is being run by the NHS, not the Government.
I know we've all been indoors for a long time, but we're not governed by a load of all knowing, all powerful overlords. Our Public sector is compartmentalised and largely run by civil servants.
"The Government" which seems to be a catch-all title for The State / The Man. Is 26 people working out of Westminster. They are mostly on the same side and mostly loyal to the PM, well, you know until there's a chance to plunge a knife between his shoulder blades and take his job.
The Intelligence Service is a non partisan organisation that tackles National and International Crime and protects the UKs interests both home and abroad. There's about 10k of them who worry about domestic issues, they're split about evenly between Crime and Terrorism. They're about the only organisation (along with GCHQ) who could, in theory hack an NHS app and use it for nefarious means, but they won't pander to the Government of the day.
It's easy the think that someone like Dominic Cummings can log onto his PC in whatever hole he calls home and just have a look at everyone's NHS records, HMRC records, call up live Spy Satellite imaginary etc but it doesn't work like that. There are too many people in the loop that if they say illegal activity like would blow the whistle, either because it suited them personally or because they know it's wrong.
They don't need to anyway, enough people willingly give all sort of information to the social media and search engine providers, it's far cheaper and easier to pay for the information, than steal it.
Except Google & Apple are just building the APIs to provide this functionality in the OS. You’ll still need an app to call those APIs, and G/A have said they’ll only support one app per health authority.
So G/A are allowing access that normal Apps don't get? So whoever does the app gets a monopoly?
It would have saved a lot of time of you'd read the article oob
The govt have all of my medical data, my tax data, my education data, all of my vehicles details. I have to put a number on my car to uniquely identify it.
There are also regulations on how they use that data https://www.gov.uk/data-protection. As yet, they haven't confirmed how their app will comply with those regulations:
https://twitter.com/jimkillock/status/1257649614188142592
So whoever does the app gets a monopoly?
Yes. A monopoly is required because everyone needs to be using the same app. Do you think Apple & Google have worked together on this for shits and giggles?
It would have saved a lot of time of you’d read the article oob
Yes, I apologise for not doing so.
...anyway, now I understand. The option is give a monopoly to the NHS, or give a Monopoly to Apple and Google, and we're just discussing which of those two should get the Monopoly.
Cool.
Well, yes, but one would work, the other won't
The option is give a monopoly to the NHS, or give a Monopoly to Apple and Google, and we’re just discussing which of those two should get the Monopoly.
No, the “NHS” could be the sole user of the joint Apple/Google API for their territory, but has (or rather Cummings&Warner&Warner&co have) chosen to use another solution that means that no one will be using the joint API in England&Wales, despite its obvious benefits. We’re too special.
I’ll use the the better, safer and more productive way of doing it, of course
Which is?
(Sorry if I’ve missed it in a fast moving thread)
Can we get an app thread, keep this relevant please mods,
I've looked to see if anyone has announced an alternative app that uses the Apple/Google tools for the UK but haven't had any success. 😕
You’ll still need an app to call those APIs, and G/A have said they’ll only support one app per health authority.
No, the “NHS” could be the sole user of the joint Apple/Google API for their territory, but has (or rather Cummings&Warner and friends have) chosen to use another solution that means that no one will be using the joint API in England&Wales.
I can't reconcile these two statements.
Can someone post a link to the register article, I've gone back 5 pages and not found it.
Is this it, doesn't seen to answer much:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/04/uk_covid_app_human_rights_parliament/
I’ll use the the better, safer and more productive way of doing it, of course
Which is?
Beats me, I took the post I was replying to at face value. I'm gagging to know. Hopefully someone will post the register article.
The second statement you've quoted I don't think is strictly correct. Somone could (maybe has) develop an alternative, but if it's not feeding in to the rest of the test/track/trace architecture is it of much use?
I'd argue it would be.
Perhaps NHS Scotland will do it? They've been a bit cagey...
The second statement you’ve quoted I don’t think is strictly correct.
I've read the three article register articles now and I think both statements are wrong. Or certainly aren't supported by the articles.
Anyway, my curiosity is satisfied I know what's going on now, thanks Del.
excess deaths
Correct - all-cause mortality. I'd plotted cumulative deaths - when I plot weekly the peaks are a bit closer together and they do appear to be post the peak for weekly incidence now. Not a great plot 🙁
my curiosity is satisfied I know what’s going on now
I’m glad you think you do.
Not a great plot
Still some seed for hope there though. I was worried that the “outside hospitals” peak might still be some way off… looks like it may lagging less than a week behind hospital deaths.
Regional variations look scary, but I don’t think they are … just a tad behind … of course those are regions that might have got off far more lightly if we’d taken measures only slightly sooner.
The option is give a monopoly to the NHS, or give a Monopoly to Apple and Google, and we’re just discussing which of those two should get the Monopoly.
Google and Apple have created a joint framework that other parties can use to develop contact tracing apps. They are not developing the apps themselves. Google and Apple have additionally said there can only be one official contact tracing app per region/territory, to avoid making contact tracing ineffective because of multiple competing apps.
The Google/Apple recommended approach uses a decentralised architecture which is less risky from a privacy perspective, and avoids the technical problems of requiring users to have the app running all the time in the foreground on an unlocked phone. The UK has decided not to follow this approach and is using a centralised reporting system which is unlikely to work because of the aforementioned technical limitations of the way smartphone security works.
Unlike the UK, some other countries have decided that developing their own apps based on the Google/Apple APIs will be more effective than trying to design their own architecture which doesn't work properly with smartphones.
Kcr has summed it up.
There's another article here
Sorry - thought the register covered the 'single use' aspect, but this is where is read about that.
Regional variations look scary, but I don’t think they are … just a tad behind
Surprisingly, at the regional level (and below this) thinks tend to look very uniform when you rebase to the same point (number of cumulative deaths is my rebase). The variability in cumulative cases and cumulative deaths is actually small. That says that there is a common transmission path. London is in the lead, South West is lagging most. Generally the further from London, the longer the lag. 2.5 - 3 fold increase in deaths/week at peak.
We got 'lucky' in that lockdown occurred before both the good weather and Easter.
when you rebase to the same point
Yes, that’s what I mean by looking scary… they look slower to reach peak… but are really just behind.
Kcr has summed it up.
Summed it up perfectly. But so have others already. OOB is just choosing not to understand (I hope).
Yes, that’s what I mean by looking scary… they look slower to reach peak… but are really just behind.
For your delight, I plotted ratio on a log scale - so you really can just shift each region along till it meets London. The notable thing is that London increases faster than the others, which are basically the same.
AIUI the Australian app is using a similar model to the NHS app, ie not (currently) using the Google/Apple APIs so needs the app open, uploads to a database on a positive tests and their centralised data is being processed by AWS which is a whole extra layer of privacy confabulation to worry about. They're a few weeks ahead of us, so what are their results looking like at the moment?
The App is being run by the NHS, not the Government.
No it's not. It's being run by Faculty and the NCSC and all the information is being stored on the NCSC servers with the NHS having access to the data to do the bespoke warnings etc they are hoping to be able to do.
The information is then being stored, indefinitely, for 'research purposes' with no limits or definitions as to what that research may be and with the ex-staff of Cambridge Analytica on the steering group with what to do with said data in the months and years to come.
I quote - from government sources - the following:
---
Levy also glossed over the fact that as soon as someone agrees to share their information with UK government – by claiming to feel unwell and hitting a big green button – 28 days of data from the app is given to a central server from where it can never be recovered. That data, featuring all the unique IDs you've encountered in that period and when and how far apart you were, becomes the property of NCSC – as its chief exec Matthew Gould was forced to admit to MPs on Monday. Gould also admitted that the data will not be deleted, UK citizens will not have the right to demand it is deleted, and it can or will be used for “research” in future.
---
It would be so easy for the government to say - 'ok when this shit is over it all gets deleted' but no, it's being held on non-NHS servers for 100 years or more and with people with expertise in extracting useful electoral data from large datasets potentially having access to it.
I may be wrong but the app seems open to abuse regarding false positives/trolling?
If it is not identifying the user, then you are self-certifying that you have tested positive for COVID-19 and there would be no way to verify that.
So if someone is a bit hypochondriac or malicious (i.e. deliberately gets on a crowded train to be close enough to people to register as a possible contamination contact) then they signify in that app that they are "positive", lots of people have to unnecessarily self-isolate for 14 days.
Or do you have to prove your identity and positive test result to be able to notify as positive in the app?
I may be wrong but the app seems open to abuse regarding false positives/trolling?
Yes, this (and all the other privacy/security issues) are why it is really hard to build something like this and get it right. You can't just rush through some shonky app, tell everyone it is their duty to use it, and hope that things turn out OK.
I'm sure that it's possible to flag users who keeping spamming positives and exclude their updates.
Just in case anyone was in doubt as the true nature of the government's apparently personable health secretary.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1257634177643577346
