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I run a small village shop, it's in an equally small village with a garden nursery and a dental practice but no other businesses. Everyone knows everyone else etc..
Just had a guy in who I know is of the dentist's at the practice in the shop, ignored the max number of customers (full at the time) & no mask. So I confronted him regards the mask - 'it's should be masks on in the shop if you can'.
Apparently he has a exemption, tells me it's illegal to ask what it is (although I hadn't), and went off on one about it. I served him, explaining I can ask people to wear a mask and that's not illegal, but refusing service to someone who claims exemption would be. He disagreed, and he left.
Turns out he's also just written a book on COVID. How he performs dentistry without a mask is beyond me......
First time I've had a actual nutter rant about it in the shop, most just leave or flatly refuse.
Just needed to get that off my chest....
We're (Wales) are introducing Masks in shops from Monday... It's probably the right time for us, and if nothing else it might just make the muppets who seemed dead set on screwing up all the work we've done.
You should the comments on the Welsh Goverment FB page. It's a real mix of "OMG, I got to by my own mask. ripoff!" "Pathetic" "wake up people" and lots of people complaining that we've only got 150 new cases a day at the moment (up from 20ish) and "NO 1 HAS EVEN DIED".
It's terrifying the think these people actually exist in real life, I assumed they were a bit of an urban myth / joke and they're allowed to vote.
I just downloaded the scottish contact tracing app. Though, less people will find about it because the BBC has just stopped showing the first minister's briefings that would have announced it. Absolute despair at that one...
The BBC thing allows short Cummings the ability to change the narrative from a ScotGov communicating well/better than UKGov. They're being outperformed so removing the platform removes the embarrassment.
I think my tinfoil hat needs new batteries.
Yep, absolutely unbelievable decision.
It stinks.
explaining I can ask people to wear a mask and that’s not illegal, but refusing service to someone who claims exemption would be.
Is it actually illegal to refuse to serve someone without a mask?
Depends on the exemption. I suppose disability discrimination act could conceivably come into play, but ordinarily, ZK would have the right to refuse service to anyone he pleases.
Though, less people will find about it because the BBC has just stopped showing the first minister’s briefings that would have announced it. Absolute despair at that one…
Yes, because the BBC is overflowing with original content that needs to be shown in its place - anyone for Antiques Road Trip?
Is it actually illegal to refuse to serve someone without a mask?
It could well be, depending on the reason for not mask wearing.
Is it actually illegal to refuse to serve someone without a mask?
NO, it isn't you can ask anyone to leave a shop/restaurant/pube etc as it is private property, and you have that right to refuse service if you wish.
If you ask someone to put on a mask and they say no - that is reason enough, sam eas asking someone to put a shirt on in a bar - if those are the terms of service in your shop - no-one has the right to overturn that unless you break another law in doing so.
you can ask anyone to leave a shop/restaurant/pube etc
Not that simple at all. Try refusing someone who knows the law from your premises because they use a wheelchair… if you refuse service to someone who can not wear a mask, you could hit similar laws. Let’s not do this in this thread though, please. Start another one if you want further discussion about this, thanks.
R ≈ 1.7 ?
TiRed?
Just watched Rachel elnaugh (formerly dragons den) talking about covid, on brandnewtube I've had my doubts for some time now. been looking on the office of national statistics page, interesting reading.watch Rachel's blog and make your own mind up.
I've just been looking at the gov website and seeing the covid tests from April to September.
In April there were 12000 tests daily with 4000 new cases.
In September there are 200,000 tests with 3500 new cases.
No idea of the point I'm not making but thought it was interesting to see figures direct from the government website
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/testing
Just watched Rachel elnaugh (formerly dragons den) talking about covid, on brandnewtube
Since brandnewtube seems to be a repository for batshit conspiracy stuff, you'll have to summarise it for the rest of us. But let me guess, the government are falsifying the virus in order to bring in sweeping powers to implant us with Bill Gates' neural chips?
Indeed. This kid is a year 11 so likely to have been in around 8 different subject classes and a tutor group.
Easy to overlook the tremendous amount of work school staff have put in to try and find a solution that works with their individual sites.
Just picking up on those 2 ... TLDR so if this has been said sorry.
School staff putting in different degrees of work... certainly some places are easier than others...
but ultimately what's the point... no masks in classrooms then as soon as school ends they are in the parks sharing spliffs, going into shops of the way home or dropping in to see gran etc. Those kids in the park go into their school/bubble etc. siblings go into theirs
By the time anyone develops any symptoms it's thousands of people they have been in contact with directly and indirectly.
5Live were interviewing some Tory MP who was horrified that the government had introduced such sweeping restrictions on civil liberties without parliamentary debate, when it was just a few young people with a cough, they were going to paralyse the economy and cause thousands of deaths through mental health, poverty and undiagnosed heart conditions.
I was managing not to shout at the radio that if all the things Tory governments have done in the last 10 years, this was the one he thought was a problem.
Luckily the expert on infectious diseases he was on with was managing to pull him apart without my help.
Ok well let's deal with things that we do know like the government's total overreaction to all of this , yes the virus is very real yes it's killing people but the percentage under 65 is small, outside nursing homes smaller.the number of people dieing of other illnesses because they are not getting the treatment is going up by the day.not to mention the affect its having on mental health.the latest new rules rushed through parliament without sutible debate or voting even the speaker of the house proclaimed it a disgrace.covid Marshall's?! Is this ok with you? Because it's not ok with me. I believe they called them collaborators in the war.the death rate is falling week on week. It's never going to go away so we are going to have to live with it so does that mean masks forever? Why don't we wear them for the flu? We will see where we are in the spring but this implementation of stricter and stricter rules when we are starting to manage the virus does not add up. As for Bill gates well if you trust him then you are a braver man then me.re a vaccine,do we vaccinate every one against flu ? No mainly only the older more vulnerable people in society.take a look at what's happening in Victoria Australia hope to god we don't go the same way.batshit?I hope you are right I really do.
Oohh an actual anti vaxxer/masker/conspiracy/Bill Gates is the Devil bod on singletrack
This is going to be fun....
Crack on common sense people...
That was actually a struggle to read. 😆
he latest new rules rushed through parliament without sutible debate or voting even the speaker of the house proclaimed it a disgrace.
I'll start with that.
The Speaker pulled him up for not mentioning it in a parliamentary committee just before it was made public (on Twitter I think), and not announcing it in the house itself.
Nothing to do with debate and voting.
With whom are the Covid marshals collaborating? The Russians? The alien lizard overlords?
the death rate is falling week on week
It was..I wonder why that was. Want to put a wager on it rising again within weeks?
I can't tell if you are a troll, or simply stupid. If it's the former, given folks on this thread have been severely affected by covid I'd say it's in pretty bad taste.
Oohh an actual anti vaxxer/masker/conspiracy/Bill Gates is the Devil bod on singletrack
This is going to be fun….
Crack on common sense people…
This thread is such an echo chamber that you should welcome alternative views.
I’m not convinced of any conspiracy involving Bill Gates or anyone else, but I do worry about small things, like the erosion of civil liberties and the impending collapse of the economy.
It’s really disappointing that the scientific community has been so uncritical of, for example, the efficacy of masks. All of the papers I’ve seen that recommend their use are barely of the quality expected of a mediocre undergraduate: cherry picking is rife, correlation and causation are conflated and ridiculous behavioural assumptions are made.
It’s funny how some of you lot tarred me with the tinfoil hat moniker a while ago when I pointed out that COVID related deaths were being exaggerated, then lo and behold, a couple of months later the government owns up and the official death rate is reduced by several thousand.
As I said before, I’m willing to wager that the death rate over the next 18 months will not be significantly higher than the 5 year average.
JP
The infection rate in Vic has come down 75% since Aug 2nd.
It’s really disappointing that the scientific community has been so uncritical of, for example, the efficacy of masks. All of the papers I’ve seen that recommend their use are barely of the quality expected of a mediocre undergraduate: cherry picking is rife, correlation and causation are conflated and ridiculous behavioural assumptions are made.
Were they pre-prints? The efficacy of masks is a difficult thing to prove, and sort of falls in the 'obviously will have some benefit' category. There weren't a lot of randomised controlled trials on seat belts, so I assume you don't wear one?
Let's be totally honest wearing a mask is an absolutely trivial thing to do for the overwhelming majority of people. Those that aren't are just being contrarians.
As I said before, I’m willing to wager that the death rate over the next 18 months will not be significantly higher than the 5 year average.
Assuming your measurement period for the 5 year average baseline excludes the period since March this year, I'll totally take this bet. Twenty quid?
I pointed out that COVID related deaths were being exaggerated, then lo and behold, a couple of months later the government owns up and the official death rate is reduced by several thousand.
From about 46k to 41k. And now you only have to survive 29 days from your positive test to not be included, so no method of counting is perfect. And we'll assume that none of the other excess deaths in that time were Covid related.
Of course there are other economic and health issues to consider. But if the infection rate spikes again, it will spread to the elderly, the vulnerable, the newly vulnerable who survived the first round but with residual organ damage and the plain unlucky. At which time the NHS will buckle again and the cycle will repeat.
I'll happily accept some limits on freedoms to avoid that. If those limits are abused, I'll be first to the barricades.
The actual number of covid deaths to date in the UK is pushing 60k, not 40k-odd. See ONS analysis, or perhaps Chris Giles in the FT. Restricting the count to people who tested positive (tests weren't available in sufficient number and aren't anywhere close to 100% reliable) and died within 28d (it's known that many take longer) guarantees a substantial undercount.
And yes it's going to get significantly worse before Christmas, R is up around 1.3 or higher now and no-one has any practical suggestion as to how to get things under control.
(well, a functioning test and trace system could have made a difference, but that horse has long since bolted, evaded recapture, spent a long and comfortable life in the Welsh mountains, and eventually succumbed to whatever old wild horses die of.)
but I do worry about small things, like the erosion of civil liberties and the impending collapse of the economy.
One would hope that legal restrictions would relax in time, but I do agree that a right wing government will take advantage, like fining people £10k for playing some music. I'll bet that won't go away post lockdown. On the economy I don't really see what the alternative is? Has any country remained fully open and not seen a massive financial impact anyway? Sweden? I'd argue that the UK has managed the worst of both worlds - didn't lock down hard or fast or long enough to eradicate.
It’s funny how some of you lot tarred me with the tinfoil hat moniker a while ago when I pointed out that COVID related deaths were being exaggerated, then lo and behold, a couple of months later the government owns up and the official death rate is reduced by several thousand.
It's still 40000 people though, plus countless others with significant health impacts. I think we'll see, as modelled very early on, a series of protracted lockdowns while we work out what the best suppression methods are and how to balance them with the desire to get back to normal.
This is the first attempt at that cycle with the new norms in place, maybe if we can get control without too many excess deaths we can get closer to normal next time around.
As I said before, I’m willing to wager that the death rate over the next 18 months will not be significantly higher than the 5 year average.
I'm still bemused by the it's ok it's a two state solution - death or recovery. There is a sizeable cohort of those who continue to be unwell. We don't know how that is going to play out when we get the usual round of winter bugs. Could end up with those who are weakened by covid get taken out by flu. Could be they survive flu and get taken out by another round of covid. We just don't know.
Covid marshals are something I'm not sure about - it's conjuring images of overzealous events staff. Yes you can tell people stand the regulation distances apart or disperse as a group but that's only one message they are getting. Meanwhile they are getting re-boot 2020 or cheery groups of people out enjoying a few light ales adverts. Trying to show life is normal whilst simultaneously maintaining it can get really bad quickly if we don't modify our behaviour is setting up conflicting information.
well, a functioning test and trace system could have made a difference, but that horse has long since bolted, evaded recapture, spent a long and comfortable life in the Welsh mountains, and eventually succumbed to whatever old wild horses die of
Not often I've laughed on a Covid thread, but I like that
the erosion of civil liberties and the impending collapse of the economy
Is this the Brexit thread?
jjprestidge
Free MemberIt’s funny how some of you lot tarred me with the tinfoil hat moniker a while ago when I pointed out that COVID related deaths were being exaggerated, then lo and behold, a couple of months later the government owns up and the official death rate is reduced by several thousand.
LOL. The government "owned up"? Actually, they decided to fudge the figures in order to make themselves look better.
So many people think governments that are failing at coronavirus, are also simultaneously lying about the extent to which they're failing, in order to make themselves look worse. What possible reason could they have for that?
From now on, any time I tell a massive lie to cover up some disaster I've committed, I'm going to call it owning up.
I'm not a troll, I didn't come on here for a fight.ok I didn't get my facts straight re the speaker of the house I stand corrected. Spectator TV episode 1 Andrew Neil interviewing a Oxford professor regarding the current covid situation explains it well ,and guess what he's not stupid you intelligent types should get along just fine.as for causing offence to any one who's been badly affected by covid was never my intention nor will it ever be.blimey I thought mountain bikers were friendly
As I said before, I’m willing to wager that the death rate over the next 18 months will not be significantly higher than the 5 year average.
JP
Eh?
It's ready 65,000+ over the 5 year average
It would have to be hugely under for the next 18 months to level off
And please show us these dodgy mask papers
Is this the Brexit thread?
Never cross the streams
JP - take my 20 quid bet 😀
blimey I thought mountain bikers were friendly
To be fair, you've arrived on a thread which is bound to attract people worried about Covid and basically said the whole response is a massive overreaction. I don't think you're a troll, just totally ****ed off with 2020. On that, we agree.
Yes, mostly older people will die, but it isn't always easy for them to protect themselves. Loads of younger people are incapacitated and potentially have lifelong conditions. So at the moment, the government chooses that we all make compromises to protect those people. In time, the balance may shift and new treatments come through, meaning more people can get back to normal.
I don't agree that we are starting to manage the virus. It has the potential to spread exactly as it did in March, so at this time the restrictions are tightening up to see if that can be avoided whilst still keeping a bit of personal freedom. Winter brings other heightened risks, so it makes sense to be cautious.
My sister moved to Victoria just after the lockdown there. Personally I'm happy that they've introduced such strong measures, it protects other members of my family. Australia in general has done a very good job of controlling Covid, so life for my family (apart from my sister!) is now closer to normality than it is here. So people have made more compromises there but it has meant better results in the medium term.
As I said before, I’m willing to wager that the death rate over the next 18 months will not be significantly higher than the 5 year average.
You are much funnier on the subject of coffee.
So here we go. Kryton Jnr 2 returned home from school yesterday with the fastest evolving cold I’ve ever seen. Fine in the morning, not enough tissue in the house overnight. Now, I have no doubt it’s just a cold, other then a streaming nose no other symptoms at all yet how will the school react to this? She won’t be the only one, and it’ll take one parent to panic and mention Covid and home they come. I wonder if any of the class will be looking for a Test over the weekend?
Then of course, I have Kryton Jnr 1 just 3 days into secondary, he’s bound to catch it from ‘lil sis, so how will that end up...
it’ll take one parent to panic and mention Covid and home they come
Not if the school are following guidelines. Don't be the panicky parent.
So here we go. Kryton Jnr 2 returned home from school yesterday with the fastest evolving cold I’ve ever seen. Fine in the morning, not enough tissue in the house overnight.
Exactly the same here,
Testing website has shown no tests available since yesterday evening.
There was ALWAYS going to be a surge in demand when schools went back , especially as everyone has been isolating for 6 months & immune systems unchallenged.
Johnson promised to have enough testing to deal with it
so how will that end up
Probably fine, sounds like a cold, the school will have had a fair amount of it already.
Don’t be the panicky parent.
Oh I’m not, I’m not even thinking about testing. I’ve been around kids colds long enough to know this isn’t anything else. Of course, we’ll Keep any eye on symptoms. I’m suggesting though of the 30 other families I’m bet Monday will be interesting, not least as we rock up to the school gate.
Our son had a temperature (38.5) so we had to get him tested. Pretty sure it is just a cold though but you can’t ignore the guidelines with a temperature. I thought you had to have more than one symptom to get tested but the government website says to get tested if you have any of the symptoms (not a combination!).
I am being the panicky parent & trying to book a test (as per government guidelines)
Not least coz if my son is still coughing like this on Monday, they'll send him straight home
And we'll be the parents that sent their covid kid to school
Crikey, that’s different. No Covid symptoms here at all. Good luck both of you.
that’s different. No Covid symptoms here at all.
Exactly - lots of sniffles and other bugs around, but actual Covid symptoms of course you go the testing route
Worry is that EVEN if we can get a test, we all have to isolate until we get results
My brother had a test on Monday morning & still doesn't have his results back!
Interesting reading, seems kids rarely get a cough with Covid
Infact have an entirely different set of symptoms:
https://covid.joinzoe.com/data
The research highlighted that children display a different range of symptoms compared to the overall adult population. The top five symptoms in school aged children who test positive for COVID are; fatigue (55%) headache (53%), fever (49%), sore throat (38%) and loss of appetite (35%). This was different compared to the App’s data on adults; fatigue (87%), headache (72%), loss of smell (60%), persistent cough (54%) and sore throat (49%). In addition to this, research from the app has also found that one in six (15%) children who test positive for COVID also present with an unusual skin rash
If a cough isn't a symptom in kids then the advice should be updated or the testing service will be in permanent meltdown until spring !.
Steve Baker of ERG fame wants us to have a simple voluntary system in respect to covd 19 i.e jusy do as you see fit? This is a fantastic example of the ERG free market approach -
Health and safety - do as you see fit
Emissions- do as you see fit
Workers rights - do as you see fit
Kids up chimneys - do as you see fit
My BIL is off to get his 11yr old tested this morning on instruction from the school she’s at as 1 of the kids in her class has tested positive and they are in this bubble together.
He’s driving to Galashiels for the test, he lives in Newcastle where no testing is available
That was actually a struggle to read. 😆
I pictured an elderly bloke with a grey beard, smelling strongly of wee and clutching a can of Fosters shouting it in my face.
As I said before, I’m willing to wager that the death rate over the next 18 months will not be significantly higher than the 5 year average.
Put me down for a tenner.
I don't get this whole b&w you die or your fine.
A friend of my partner has just had this, she is late 30s and super active. For the last 5 months she has been properly ill, she posted last night on Facebook how much of an acheivement it was for her to have walked about a mile from her house to watch the sunset.
I would really rather avoid that lifestyle change thank you please.
So big yellow warnings on the news sites; don’t have a party/strain on the police force/strain on the nhs.
Of course we could question why the tories haven’t learned from many occasions beforehand that locking down on a Friday would prevent this, but I guess a chance for a burst in commerce and some extra herd immunity can’t be missed, sod the lives lost.
This thread is such an echo chamber that you should welcome alternative views.
I’m not convinced of any conspiracy involving Bill Gates or anyone else, but I do worry about small things, like the erosion of civil liberties and the impending collapse of the economy.
It’s funny how some of you lot tarred me with the tinfoil hat moniker a while ago when I pointed out that COVID related deaths were being exaggerated, then lo and behold, a couple of months later the government owns up and the official death rate is reduced by several thousand.
As I said before, I’m willing to wager that the death rate over the next 18 months will not be significantly higher than the 5 year average.
+1
We're heading towards a fascist state, don't expect this puppet Government to do anything cos their strings are being pulled.
We’re heading towards a fascist state
We really are not.
Been hitting refresh since 7am, still no tests
Apparently the government are limiting testing in Wales to take English cases
https://twitter.com/WillHayCardiff/status/1304696306649174017?s=19
I pictured an elderly bloke with a grey beard, smelling strongly of wee and clutching a can of Fosters shouting it in my face.
Perhaps your time would have better spent discussing the points he raised? I don't see any extremes along these lines "anti vaxxer/masker/conspiracy/Bill Gates is the Devil" in what he actually wrote.
We’re heading towards a fascist state
We’re heading towards a fascist state
A temporary removal of rights is very frustrating, and safeguards to ensure we get them back as soon as possible is essential. I’m in full support of the Tory MPs pushing for the legislation and restrictions being reviewed in parliament every month, rather than every six months. Perhaps quarterly would be a good compromise. The executive acting unchecked, even in a pandemic, should be resisted. Just as important… we know the executive has had to bypass normal procurement rules to respond at speed… but those contracts should be examined, immediately, by a select committee… not left for a future enquiry that might never happen. A state where a small team at no10 and cabinet office can create draconian laws, and funnel state funds to companies we know nothing about, is looking like step one towards a fascist state. That isn’t to say that restrictions and quick actions aren’t required right now… but they should still involve parliamentary scrutiny, and where necessary court judgements… the small team at the heart of government should not be able to act as if their decisions are the start and end of the democratic process.
I’d like all that ^^^^^ applied to the Brexit process, new trade deals, and planning/building as well. No more centralising power with Gove, Cummings and the booster after dinner speaker.
Brexit- will remove rights.
Tories- will remove rights.
None of these things need a pandemic/plandemic/anything of hte sort, it's just what they do. Declare a specific right to be an Enemy Of The People or Elitist or Leftist or Damaging the Economy or Red Tape, and poof, there it goes. Legal aid, strike action, I can't remember many of the anti-corona-measures people being up in arms on all that
the small team at the heart of government should not be able to act as if their decisions are the start and end of the democratic process.
It's OK to make decisions at speed and in good faith in times of crisis. It's even forgivable that mistakes get made. But they must be honest mistakes, and they must be examined with the intent not of blaming but learning.
Spending millions with shell companies with no evidence in being able to deliver the products or services that they are being contracted for, is not a mistake. From ferries to facemasks, this is cronyism, pure and simple. That's why they won't be examined, and they'll get away with it, in turn that's why they do it.
In the past there'd be a hint of shame; these lot are just shameless.
Question about the new lockdown rules, specifically in Scotland. Our road clubs weekly club rides have just started again this weekend. Assume they'll need to stop if we have a limit if 6 folks meeting outdoors?
Apologies as I'm not massively up to speed with what's allowed and what's not..
Not least coz if my son is still coughing like this on Monday, they’ll send him straight home
So dont bloody send him to school like the school and gov say, get him a test and wait for it to return, most likely negative
So big yellow warnings on the news sites; don’t have a party/strain on the police force/strain on the nhs.
Of course we could question why the tories haven’t learned from many occasions beforehand that locking down on a Friday would prevent this, but I guess a chance for a burst in commerce and some extra herd immunity can’t be missed, sod the lives lost.
Just finished my home delivery shift and most customers had party/BBQ food and drink in their crates. Got back to the store and the place has been emptied of all of the same products. Drove past most of the parks around here and they were very busy, also heard a few garden parties going on too.
I'm expecting a similar spike to the one we had after the VE Day parties.
Question about the new lockdown rules, specifically in Scotland. Our road clubs weekly club rides have just started again this weekend. Assume they’ll need to stop if we have a limit if 6 folks meeting outdoors?
One other key point in the First Minister’s update: only two households of up to six people can now gather indoors or outdoors. However, the guidance adds that “You may meet outdoors with members of up to four other households at a time for exercise or activity”.
So I read that as 6 people from 4 households.
“You may meet outdoors with members of up to four other households at a time for exercise or activity”.
So I read that as 6 people from 4 households.
That would be 6 people from 5 households.
I posted on the Brexit Thread last week about my MP, the Rt Hon Simon Clarke. He quit as a minister last week, possibly related to the international law issues.
Turns out he got caught shagging at work. Wife and kid at home in his constituency.
Currently unclear how pumping your work colleagues fits within the CV19 rules. Although I'm looking forward to Barnard Castle esque mental gymnastics. Quite a few constituents probing him on this.
So dont bloody send him to school like the school and gov say, get him a test and wait for it to return, most likely negative
Yeah, I'm not that daft!
Been hitting refresh for a good 10 hrs now
Still no tests!
I’m expecting a similar spike to the one we had after the VE Day parties.
Not as big as everyone expected then?
The difference now is that it will bump the rate up in the run into flu and cold season, so at the worst possible time.
Has anyone in government said why the new measures weren't brought in yesterday? It was leaked a few days prior, wasn't it?
Stunning weather down here all weekend into next week which is lovely but worrying at the same time. However, if people are outside I suppose that's preferable to being inside before the rule of 6 kicks in.
Been hitting refresh for a good 10 hrs now
Still no tests!
Its bollocks isnt it. When the testing system fully falls over in a few weeks we are back to March.
It’s never going to go away so we are going to have to live with it so does that mean masks forever?
@richpenny Because of this ^^
I've spent the last couple of months dismayed at people who conflate mask wearing with the imposition of a fascist state. It's really not, and you would do well to think about true fascism.
Would you say that Japan, where people routinely wear masks, is a fascist state?
The hallmark of fascist dictatorship is the imposition of trivially inconvenient rules for the good of the most vulnerable in society.
Its bollocks isnt it. When the testing system fully falls over in a few weeks we are back to March.
Almost got through, apparently 12 slots in my nearest one
But when I clicked on it none left !
It's easier getting tickets to Glastonbury