[Closed] Where the anti 4x4 brigade when this happens?

My observations of the moors north of Bolton, the Lakes, the Dales, and Snowdonia tell me the opposite. (Or at least numbers of 4wds that might actually see something more off-road than the pavement outside Tarquin's school i.e. NOT X5s etc)

The vast majority of 4x4s don't ever go off-road, so your point is moot.

BTW - I grew up in the "moors north of Bolton", and we never ever needed a 4x4.

In the same way that your post may have been misunderstood as a bit of sanctimonious willy waving due to how insufferably smug driving a Prius can make people?

Should I have just said '2WD car' instead? I never mentioned anything about environmental impact, so can't see how it was being sanctimonious.

The vast majority of 4x4s couldn't do that! I'd love to seen someone plough through that in their precious shiney X5...

I would most likely wet myself when they got stuck.

I live in the Yorkshire Dalesv and anywho actually needs the ability to off-road has a Landrover, an old Subaru estate, an L200 or a Hilux. All the range rover vogues, X5s and other silly SUVs are clean as a whistle and never go 'off road', though they do all seem to drive in the middle of the road, and never give way.

Isn't it appalling how other people are allowed to buy things that you don't like? I mean really!

I don't mind them having them, and had an old Subaru myself, awesome car, but i never understood the need to drive in the middle of the road all the time.

they're hardly likely to buy a car for each season.

This is what the open to landy was made for. And auxiliary heaters.

The vast majority of 4x4s couldn't do that! I'd love to seen someone plough through that in their precious shiney X5...

I would give it a go if I had an X5

Out of interest what makes people driving Defenders through water cool and people driving X5's through water ****ers?

What if somebody in an X5 drove through a river to save an old lady in her broken down 1993 Fiesta? is he cool or a ****er? 😕

I would most likely wet myself when they got stuck.

The only rural area i know is the highlands there every one who needs four wheel drive has a toyota pick up or land rover defender (battered)most people seem to get by with normal cars . Big status 4x4s are the preserve of tourists who can't reverse .

I quite like that people are allowed to buy 4x4s it is a form of instant introduction which saves me a load of time.

What if somebody in an X5 drove through a river to save an old lady in her broken down 1993 Fiesta? is he cool or a ****?

Not sure, but they would certainly be an unusual X5 owner. Its not a universal thing. there was this time about 3 years ago when an X3 driver used a passing place to give way to oncoming traffic out of no other motive than it was the sensible thing to do. So there are exceptions to the rule.

For the most part what crankboy says is the same down here.

I think what a lot of people need to realise is that some people will drive like idiots no matter what car they are in. Just because somebody has chosen to buy a big 4x4 like a Cayenne or a Q7 that doesn't mean they are an idiot. Because somebody has bought an Octavia it doesn't mean they are a sensible person. Because somebody rides a bike that doesn't mean that they will be nice to other cyclists.

I think what a lot of people need to realise is that some people will drive like idiots no matter what car they are in.

That's true. Unfortunately, the problem is compounded when said idiot is driving a very large and heavy car.

That's certainly true, an idiot in a tiny hatchback is much less threatening and terrifying and less likely to make the same impression as an idiot in a RR Vogue.

But why do people buy vanity SUVs? Vanity has to be a factor in idiocy, doesn't it?

I often look at the 'idiots' in Range Rovers and wonder how the 'idiots' got more money than me. 😡

molgrips - Member

But why do people buy vanity SUVs? Vanity has to be a factor in idiocy, doesn't it?

Think I agree with the sentiment if not the way it's phrased. From SUV owners I know and have met it there also seems to be quite a bit of arrogance and ego mixed in there as well - automotive willy waving perhaps.

But why do people buy vanity SUVs? Vanity has to be a factor in idiocy, doesn't it?

A good friend of mine has one of those enormous Audi 4x4s. A Q7, I think. He's not remotely bothered about cars (or if he is, he's not letting on), and drives very slowly and carefully. What on earth possessed him to buy such a spectacularly ugly, inefficient waste of road space is beyond me.

A couple of years ago we were out riding in the Lakes with 'crazylegs' when we came across an X5.
The driver and passengers were standing next to the vehical and wondering if they could drive it through the shallow ford. We watched for a while, then crazylegs decided to go over and ask would they like him to take it through for them, then thought better of the request. We left them having difficulty with a 3 point turn on a tight lane.

mean they are an idiot. Because somebody has bought an Octavia it doesn't mean they are a sensible person.

My boss has a Q7. Mind you, he's a **** and it goes nicely with his personality 🙂

I've got a Discovery 3, one of the biggest cars on UK roads, though it's actually got a slightly smaller footprint than an E-Class, and I don't hear of people militating to ban them. It gets used off-road probably once a month, goes to the Alps four times a year, and carries logs, dogs and bikes all the time. If everyone could get past the fact that it's a 4x4, they'd be OK. Look at instead as just a 30mpg car, albeit one that can go just about anywhere and carry lots of stuff..

If you want to have increasing levels of rage based on the CO2 output of cars, knock yourself out. But if you're going to be fair about it, you really have to have a go at just about anything petrol-powered (a 2.0 Mondeo's no more frugal than my car, driven in the real world). Take a look at the real-world fuel consumption of the £0 road tax Fiat Twin-Air (officially 70mpg, in reality more like 35), and realise that having a go at 4x4s is prejudice, pure and simple.

Look at instead as just a 30mpg car

That's the issue. If BMW X5s did 100mpg I wouldn't care less. The issue with flashy SUVs (not utility ones) is that people want to use up twice the resources to do the same number of miles, purely for vanity. Doesn't seem right, does it?

a 2.0 Mondeo's no more frugal than my car, driven in the real world

I dispute that. Plus in terms of impact petrol and diesel don't compare directly. More CO2 from diesels given the same mpg and a lot more other pollutants. Then there's the manufacturing footprint of the fuel too.

Take a look at the real-world fuel consumption of the £0 road tax Fiat Twin-Air (officially 70mpg, in reality more like 35), and realise that having a go at 4x4s is prejudice, pure and simple

Poor example. Most people get 45-55 from those (or did when I last checked - most were new at the time) and it's the worst example of misleading test figures I reckon. I get 10% more than the combined figure for my diesel Passat, about 52mpg on average, up to 60mpg on a 70mph run.

If it's mpg thing why don't people care about sports cars?

10-15 mpg and can only carry 2 people

I suspect it's to do with size and some basic human fear that is then rationalised on other things like mpg

I had a chortle today when a woman curbed the alloys on her Overfinch trying to squeeze up the inside of a line of traffic. It didn't sound healthy. Or cheap.

If it's mpg thing why don't people care about sports cars?
10-15 mpg and can only carry 2 people
I suspect it's to do with size and some basic human fear that is then rationalised on other things like mpg

Most people don't have sports cars as their every day car though (and yes they are also really wasteful).

My main issue with 4x4s is the way they are often driven/parked. Fairly sure there is research that backs this up btw, something to do with the feeling of safety from the size/driving position.

They are also simply too big to allow two cars to pass on many country roads, especially when driven by numpties.

My observations of the moors north of Bolton, the Lakes, the Dales, and Snowdonia tell me the opposite. (Or at least numbers of 4wds that might actually see something more off-road than the pavement outside Tarquin's school i.e. NOT X5s etc)

The I live in the country argument is bollocks unless it is a particularly hard to access house. Better that most people just admitted the had a 4x4 for want rather than need. Of course there are exception but don't try and make out most 4x4 are needed.

In Norway, there is far worse driving conditions, so people learn to drive their 2wd cars effectively or buy AWD versions of normals cars (e.g. AWD golf).

The I live in the country argument is bollocks unless it is a particularly hard to access house. Better that most people just admitted the had a 4x4 for want rather than need. Of course there are exception but don't try and make out most 4x4 are needed.

I live about 2 1/2 miles from the nearest town which is on the Forth, but at a 600 foot elevation above it, the road has a couple of 12% climbs. A couple of winters ago, our road was snow and ice bound for a couple of months. Most of my neighbours have a 4x4. Nothing fancy, old Land Rovers, Suzuki Jimnys and Subarus. I never really noticed that they had 4x4 capability until the snow came and things elsewhere ground to a halt but we carried on as usual.

For the record I only ever use mine as a working tool.

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+ Studded tyres help....

What's wrong with having a 4x4 if you don't drive off road? I really don't get it. I can't see the venom for say, 3l v6's that do half the mpg of 1.6's, surely that's as bad? I mean, the speed limit is 70mph so what's the point of a car that would do 14mph instead of one that'd do 100mph? Surely it's about enjoying owning something, It's no worse than having a larger house, a better bike, a boat, yet somehow a 4x4 driver is hated and called vain. The vehicles have no bigger footprint than many large cars, they have no worse immisions than say an M5, yet they seem to be OK. Please, someone tell me what's wrong with a 4x4?

Oh, and as for asking what about an X5 driver trying to get through that water to help someone out? I reckon you'd have a written off X5, those things are NOT designed to do that sort of thing.

The vast majority of 4x4s don't ever go off-road, so your point is moot.

But some do - so the point is indeed moot (i.e. up for discussion - I assume you meant mute?)

BTW - I grew up in the "moors north of Bolton", and we never ever needed a 4x4.

Sure, but I was living in Belmont in the winter of 2009-2010, when the main road was closed for 4 days with 10-12" of snow. The only people who ignored that fact were the owners of Defenders or Series Landies, and a couple of people (us included) in normal cars. After it froze on the first night, only the Landies were moving about. It regularly snows up there, and the little road between Belmont and Horwich is regularly shut. Sure, you could struggle all the way round in a normal car, but why, when you can drive and not struggle in a 4wd when you live in an area prone to snow.

molgrips - Member
But why do people buy vanity [s]SUVs[/s] products such as expensive bikes? Vanity has to be a factor in idiocy, doesn't it?

FIFY

a 2.0 Mondeo's no more frugal than my car, driven in the real world
[u]I dispute that[/u].

I've driven a few as hire cars - in the real world, 30-35mpg is realistic. The diesel of course does much better.

The I live in the country argument is bollocks unless it is a particularly hard to access house.

Well, I lived in the country, and would have found one bloody useful most winters. I couldn't afford one and had to make do with a normal car. So not bollocks. HTH.

Noone NEEDS a car (they can change their job / lifestyle / where they live). Noone needs a 2K+ bike (or several of them). Don't forget cyclists don't pay road tax, always jump red lights, and ignore the rules of the road 😉

(last bit firmly tongue in cheek - but sounds very similar to "all 4wd owners can't drive / park etc")

I've got a Smart Fortwo and live in the country, should I live in the city?

I use my mountain bike to get to the local shops across town sometimes.

I can't see the venom for say, 3l v6's that do half the mpg of 1.6's, surely that's as bad?

Yeah, it is.

I reckon you're better off in a 2wd car with winter tyres than in a 4x4 with normal tyres. So if you are really worried about snow get winter tyres and save fuel all year.

I reckon you're better off in a 2wd car with winter tyres than in a 4x4 with normal tyres. So if you are really worried about snow get winter tyres and save fuel all year.

What about a 4wd with winter tyres ❓

Starting off, better. Slowing down and cornering, no change.

If you live in the country, then 4x4's are part of your way of life. Along with sheep shearing, stone walling and mountain biking. Its perfectly acceptable to own a 4x4 or a mountain bike if you live in the country, as you have a genuine use for them.

If you live in the city, you dont have a use for these things. Your lifestyle involves shopping, reading your ipad in cafe nero, pretending to like art and gun crime (depending which suburbs you live in)

This is your lifestyle, you chose it. Mountain bikes and 4x4's have no use to you. Please, leave them to the folks that can actually justify them.

What's so bad about Landies......Defenders with roof mounted gimpys are useful for keeping the zombies away....any that get close can then me run under the wheels with impunity.

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Starting off, better. Slowing down and cornering, no change.

Assuming you're going too fast for the conditions.

If driven properly, a 4wd will get much further than a 2wd car on the snow. Slowing down thanks to engine breaking and low range (not to mention the various electronic traction aids in more modern vehicles) is much more effective than slowing down a 2wd car in steep, slippery conditions.

There is a lot of grumpy old men posts, I have to smile. 😀

Who cares about 4x4s, next people will say having a car that does more than 70mph is shameful because the national speed limit is 70 mph...

*shakes fist angrily* boo hiss Ferrari /rage

Pretty sure all the girls & boys at Jaguar-LandRover are more than happy people buy the cars they build. By the way 4x4 will get more economical I've seen the development theories JLR are predicting (just give it 5-10 years in R&D). If they crack it expect to see more BIG cars on the road.

I've had a few 4x4s and just sold my 2004 Defender and replaced the wife's car for an X5 (I've 8 bikes and a motorbike so we all have our vices)

In the 3.5yrs, 12,000miles I lost £400 on the Defender. In a similar vain but 19'000 miles I lost £31,500 on my wife's unpractical sports car (we have 2 dogs).

Both averaged about 26mpg. The Defender was cheaper to insure and service.

The X5. Far better then the first one. Drives like a car. Changes gear at around 1200rpm and for the grunt very economical. Would I have one -NO. But then again would the Wife have 8 bikes - NO.

I'm going to replace my ageing Volvo XC70. I want a cheap ass run around. Something I can put 2 dogs in / bikes, use sod all fuel and costs £35 a year to tax. I'm looking at Citroen Nemo Multispace. All bar one of my mates is threating to disown me.

So where's the vanity?

If driven properly, a 4wd will get much further than a 2wd car on the snow. Slowing down thanks to engine breaking and low range (not to mention the various electronic traction aids in more modern vehicles) is much more effective than slowing down a 2wd car in steep, slippery conditions.

I'm intensely sceptical of this, and I am not alone. But we've done all this before on STW.

So where's the vanity?

Driving an X5 even though it does 26mpg? Does that not count?

So molgrips, I'm sure you've got a 2l tdi with dsc box. If im right, there are cheaper, more frugal cars out there. Why have you got that one? We all make choices, it's not a communist state, we're allowed to have impractical things purely because we want to.
In fact, if hitler had had his way, we'd all be driving in the same car, a sodding beetle (huzah, godwins law!)

lot of tierd people on here , i got a disco 2 cos i like it , i also have used it off road, and it tows my pikey van nicely up to scotland and back very well thanks.get over yer selfs.

I'm intensely sceptical of this, and I am not alone. But we've done all this before on STW.

Just checking: You're intensely skeptical of something you've never actually experienced?

If a 4wd with high centre of gravity heads round a snowy corner as fast as a lower slung normal car, [b]assuming grip is the same[/b], then of course the normal car stands less chance of rolling. That assumption is of course flawed as a 4wd with proper tyres will have much more grip - which I admit might lull an inexperienced driver into a false sense of security.

If however, both vehicles are trying to negotiate their way down a snowy steep twisty hill. The 4wd's ability to smoothly regulate its speed to a walking pace means it's likely to get down in a controlled manner. This is my experience of driving 4wds in such conditions. My experience of cars in such conditions is that with some luck you might get to the bottom in one piece, but you'll have spent most of your time fighting the ABS. You'll also have much less chance of avoiding anything coming the other way.

You do know the main reason 4wds have low range is for descending, rather than climbing, don't you?

the key thing to driving in snow is tyres. a 4x4 on racy low profile road tyres will get stuck before a 2wd on mud and snow tyres.

I remember driving a 2cv around in snow one year - it was great - tall narrow tyres gave great grip and they had a fairly open tread pattern

the key thing to driving in snow is tyres. a 4x4 on racy low profile road tyres will get stuck before a 2wd on mud and snow tyres.

Absolutely. But a 2wd on M+S tyres will get stuck before a 4wd on the same.