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One thing I find strange about this is the despite all Salmonds political enemies before this there has never been a whisper of him being a groper at all. Usually we know via roundabout routes who the gropers are.
So how many others are there? How many of the current crop of MP's accused did you know about?
eat_the_pudding
By the way you’re _still_ either suggesting (or repeating the suggestions of others) that there is something underhand WRT the complaints or the complainants.
There is definitely something smelling about the way the complaints were handled within the Civil Service. Craig Murray goes into detail.
The puzzling thing is that there appears to be a case, so why did they botch it to the extent they did?
The other puzzling thing is as tjagain points out - there has been no smoke previously, yet the media have been digging for anything for well over a decade.
Salmond has said words to the effect of "I have never claimed to be an angel" and "I have not committed any crime", but he hasn't said " I haven't done anything".
I take this to mean he knows he as done something that may be at the minimum be morally wrong, but he believes he stopped short of criminality, but now it is for the PF and then potentially the court to decide if he has done something legally wrong.
Which MPs are accused of serious sexual assault? A few gropers were known about. Lists of Tory MPS being circulated to new female MPs for example warning which ones not to be in a room alone with. Many of those names became public knowledge.
One thing I find strange about this is the despite all Salmonds political enemies before this there has never been a whisper of him being a groper at all. Usually we know via roundabout routes who the gropers are. Saville for example we knew about a decade before he was exposed.
Do we know the total number of complainants and a timeline of events yet? I imagine in some cases perhaps the accused has had no history of such misconduct and that perhaps circumstances over a short period of time with a limited number of individuals. We don't yet know enough of the details. Saville is not the one size fits all predator. I am certainly NOT alluding to any guilt in this case.
A loudmouth and a bit of a bully yes. Arrogant smug git yes. We knew that. But not a whisper of being a creep and a groper.
Well done on downplaying attempted rape.
TJ - plea deals don't happen in Scots law
sorry to burst your bubble - they happen all the time in every court in Scotland at every level. From Murder to Culpable Homicide, Dangerous Driving reduced to Careless, to pleading guilty to one shop lifting charge if the prosecutor accepts not-guilty to a virtually identical case the week after, and even dropping a road traffic case in one court if an assault in another court case pleads guilty. We aren't as crass as to call it a plea bargain - its known as resolution in the public interest, and the sentence is never part of the agreement (although the defence will know the likely and legally possible range of outcomes when advising their client and negotiating with the prosecutor) - but don't kid yourself that this is not an everyday occurrence in Scotland.
It is however difficult to imagine in a case as high profile as this, with the accused having publicly and vigorously denied criminality that a plea could be agreed that would be acceptable to him and his reputation. One of the advantages for the alleged victims is they do not need to give evidence, whilst the prosecutor saves court time, effort, and of course the unquantifiable risk that either they screw something up or a Jury decides not guilty anyway. Usually if the case looks likely to fail it will be in the public interest to drop it or part of it (or accept not-guilty pleas), that does become harder to do with such a high profile case as then it is implied to be a conspiracy.
Well living in Scotland and despairing at the divisive politics (I.e we'll use everything in our power to make ourselves different from England even though it's more complicated and stupid, so we gain independence eventually by default), I can't help but smile at king Alex's misfortune. Of course it's not misfortune if he actually did this stuff, which remains to be seen.
Please, can another political party save us from the snp? I'd *even* accept the Tories although I'd feel a bit dirty!
I read that. Still not seeing a connection between Sturgeon’s appearance and the Salmond case.
I can’t really help you more then sorry. Or are you just fishing for something else?
I am waiting to see if we get an iraq-style pulling down of the salmond stone
13 alleged sex crimes and an alleged breach of the peace. Anyone else more curious about the breach of the peace in amongst all the other charges?
epicyclo, and maybe tj
You do seem to be looking for a reason to find or create doubt and uncertainty about the allegations. You are using the timing of the complaints, the cocked up process and the lack of previous rumours as "questionable" features worthy of consideration.
But have a think about how your "analysis" looks from the perspective of the complainants.
Have you considered that one of the main reasons for any delay might be the reactions, hair splitting and armchair analysis of people just like like you?
In any case, as its sub judice is it not best to avoid discussion of "things that suggest its all a lie" just as much as "things that suggest hes as guilty as sin"?
The facts will eventually come out and then we can all have a go.
For me, I'm wondering how the jury selection will be carried out?
Get a few zoomers on the jury and they'll probably think its the persecution of Jesus all over again.
nyone else more curious about the breach of the peace in amongst all the other charges?
Its a very broadly defined charge. Tends to be thought of as riotous, rowdy, brawlty behaviour and stuff that is very public - ie disturbing the public's peace (and it can the the threat to do so rather than an actual action) but it also includes things that are more person to person; following or spying on someone, voyeurism, threatening letters and communication and so on. So I suspect as a charge its not something wildly unrelated to the the others but rather a catch-all to do with persistent or pestering behaviour in the light of the others.
Has anyone considered that the alleged victims might be male?
Has anyone considered that the alleged victims might be male?
Funnily enough my wife suggested that as she has always said he looks gay!
10 women 14 charges.
****..
10 women 14 charges
He's coming across like the most incompetent sexual assaulter in history.
10 women 14 charges.
****..
Yes, innocent until proven guilty etc., but he’s got a fight on his hands there eh?!
Be interesting to see what his defence is.
10 women 14 charges
Crikey ...
What I don't understand is that this politician (most politicians) is not short of a bob or two so why they behave in such a way I don't know.
Why not just hire some the pron stars?
Crikey …
What I don’t understand is that this politician (most politicians) is not short of a bob or two so why they behave in such a way I don’t know.
Why not just hire some the pron stars?
Because that doesn't feed the ego of the kind of man who does this.
Vague Scottish law question, but is it normal for such specific details of the charges to be made public ahead of the actual trial? Are the rules about prejudicing potential jurors different up there?
Didn't he win the civil case?
Why not just hire some prom stars?
Because it’s nothing to do with sex, it’s about control and power.
Hard to imagine rumours haven't been flying about for a few years;
If only someone on singletrack had ties to Scottish Parliament!!
He won a civil case on the abuse of process.
The one thing I find very odd about all this is that Salmond has many many political enemies and not a peep from anyone about this. We knew about Savile for years, Air miles Andy the same, John Peel the same - allthe roumours were out there. Why not a hint of Salmond being a groper and worse?
Arrogant bully yes. But I know people who worked for him and alongside him and scottish politics is a very small world so why not a hint earlier?
given that tho the scale of the accusations is frankly astonishing to me. Lets see what due process brings
Hard to know what to think...
bit like Ian Blackford's ties to senior CIA bods via Deutsche Bank Alex Brown, which in itself spills over into Erik Prince of Blackwater; not a million miles away from Rudy Giuliani's involvement with Camelbak...
many crimes never even reach a court;
but anyway, as you say, let's see what due process brings
Because that doesn’t feed the ego of the kind of man who does this.
Because it’s nothing to do with sex, it’s about control and power.
Hmmm ... that is probably true considering all politicians only have one thing in their minds, power.
🤔
I'd heard about it years ago from folk who worked on civil service, directly with the first minister.
Was more about his drinking tbh, which is maybe defensible. But if this is true, then not defensible.
It'll be made political although he's not actually anything to do with current government
There was a thing about it on Radio 4 this afternoon, but basically politicians and everyone else have to be very careful about what they say on this matter so as not to prejudice the trial. So it may not be possible for anyone to make much of this for election purposes whether they want to or not.
YGH
You heard rumours about sexual assault? Or just his being an arrogant bully and a drinker? the latter was open knowledge, the former I never heard
I ask because I have never heard anything about him being a perve / groper / rapist ( delete as applicable) and I find it more than odd that rumours never became widespread. that is not to say that the allegations are untrue just that this appears very unusual
Hi TJ .. more pointing out of 'oddness' and 'wondering' on your part.
To quote myself from just up there;
You do seem to be looking for a reason to find or create doubt and uncertainty about the allegations. You are using the timing of the complaints, the cocked up process and the lack of previous rumours as “questionable” features worthy of consideration.
But have a think about how your “analysis” looks from the perspective of the complainants.
Have you considered that one of the main reasons for any delay might be the reactions, hair splitting and armchair analysis of people just like like you?
We knew how broad the charges were before now, but I'm genuinely shocked by the number of complainants.
If these charges are upheld then this should lead to a very serious look at the culture of government in Scotland.
eat_the_pudding
We knew how broad the charges were before now, but I’m genuinely shocked by the number of complainants.
I think we all are.
And as TJ says, surprised that in the hostile media environment within which the SNP exists that there was not a peep of a rumour beforehand. Any journalist worth their salt ought to have uncovered this years ago, and their editors would have been delighted with the scoop.
If only someone on singletrack had ties to Scottish Parliament!!
There is an MSP on here.
I doubt they want me to share who they are though.
I'm awaiting the justice system to do it's job before I wade in with speculation.
Very un-stw I know.
So he's a bully and arrogant but unlikely to be guilty of sexual assault as we would have heard something? If there are ten woman who came forward then I would imagine there are more who haven't. And it's not just the Scottish parliament that needs to take a look at itself, Westminster is hardly full of saints.
Vague Scottish law question, but is it normal for such specific details of the charges to be made public ahead of the actual trial? Are the rules about prejudicing potential jurors different up there?
There is nothing unusual in Scotland about the details of the Inditement being public at this stage. The only unusual thing is reporters bothering to turn up at court and then actually include the details in their attempt at journalism. We pride ourselves in open justice so the essential elements of the accusations: who*, what, where, when should be public. The Jury will in due course be completely aware of the accusations, it’s not clear to me how they would be prejudiced by knowing those allegations are being made today. The only issue would be if the media (or jurors themselves) were to start speculating or investigating on other allegations, or trying to uncover the details of these cases - that would be subjudice in Scotland just as in England. The judge will ask at the start If any of the Jurors have knowledge of the cases - it won’t be difficult to find 15 people in Scotland who are genuinely disinterested. The fact the accusations exists does not automatically cause a bias (imagine a typical high profile murder in Scotland - it will have been front page news for days).
I’d be surprised if these details were not available in E&W at a similar stage of proceedings.
*in most cases the complainer (“victim”) would be named too - but generally not for sexual cases. There is a strong argument that the accused should be afforded similar anonymity - but until someone like an MP is wrongly accused the law is unlikely to change...
People are still sowing FUD here about the complainants and the charges.
Its pretty telling how your criticism of whats happening seems to be rooted in sowing doubt on the truthfulness of the complainants rather than wondering about the culture that would enable such things to happen without any information slipping out over such a long period of time.
Wonder why that is.
EDIT: I'm quite sure no government is full of saints, but I'm also pretty sure that one of the biggest problems in scotland right now is an inability to criticise anything about SG without someone bunging a reference to "but westmonster!" on the end of the sentence.
To be utterly clear. I have no opinion on the guilt or not of Salmond. clearly there are credible complaints here which needs to go to court and given how difficult it is to prosecute sexual assualt cases the evidence must be good
My point merely was that I am surprised no hint of this has been known before. Every other case of powerful men being sexual predators the romour mill had been in operation for a long time and we knew about it well before any court case.
Who has been sewing doubt on the credibility of the complainants? I have been accused of this but its not something I have done.
My thoughts on this ( and of course like us all its just idle speculation) has developed over time.
Initially given the lack of the slightest hint of Salmond being a sexual predator I thought it odd and a possible political hatchet job - but even then that didn't make sense as why wait until he is out of power?
As things unfolded it became clear that there was more than we initially knew and the "me too" effect came into play with others coming forward. Its now looking much more serious and credible
Now - that amount of charges with that number of complaints ( and given the known reluctance of the procurator fiscal to bring sexual assault charges) I would now think that he is a sexual predator. Lets see what comes out in court. I realise this is slightly differnt to the post above I had a little more time to think)
Given that then why no hint of any scandal in the past? That is something that needs to be looked into. culture of fear? payoffs?
for what its worth I always assumed that Salmond was so deeply in the closet he was in Narnia!
Who has been sewing doubt on the credibility of the complainants?
Initially given the lack of the slightest hint of Salmond being a sexual predator I thought it odd and a possible political hatchet job
That was easy, whats next?
And where do I say the complainants are not to be believed? Thats you putting words into my mouth. But nothing unusual on here. Thats your interpretation not what I said.
tjagain
...for what its worth I always assumed that Salmond was so deeply in the closet he was in Narnia!
I must admit I thought much the same.
Here's the list of charges (as published by the BBC):
- Indecently assaulted a woman on a number of occasions in Glasgow in June and July 2008 by kissing her on the mouth and touching her buttocks and breasts with his hands over her clothing
- Sexually assaulted the same woman in December 2010 or December 2011 in the Ego nightclub in Edinburgh by touching her arms and hips with his hands over her clothing
- Indecently assaulted a woman in October or November 2010 at Bute House by repeatedly seizing her by the wrists and repeatedly pulling her towards him and attempting to kiss her
- Sexually assaulted a woman in a car in Edinburgh in February 2011 by touching her leg with his hand over her clothing
- Sexually assaulted a woman on various occasions between 2011 and 2013 at Bute House, the Scottish Parliament and other locations by touching her buttocks with his hands over her clothing, stroking her arms, and touching and stroking her hair
- Sexually assaulted a woman at Bute House in October 2013 by removing her foot from her shoe, stroking her foot, lifting her foot towards his mouth and attempting to kiss her foot
- Sexually assaulted a woman at Bute House in November or December 2013 by kissing her on the mouth
- Intended to rape the same woman in December 2013 at Bute House by causing her to sit on a bed, lying on top of her, making sexual remarks to her, touching her buttocks, thighs and breasts over her clothing with his hands, repeatedly kissing her face, struggling with her and pulling up her dress
- Sexually assaulted a woman in 2012 at the Ubiquitous Chip restaurant in Glasgow by touching her buttocks with his hand over her clothing
- Sexually assaulted the same woman at Bute House in April 2014 by placing his arm around her, making sexual remarks to her and attempting to kiss her
- Sexually assaulted a woman at Bute House in May 2014 by placing his arm around her body, placing his hand under her clothing and underwear and touching her breast, repeatedly kissing her on the face and neck and stroking her leg with his hand
- Sexually assaulted a woman at Bute House in September 2014 by seizing her by the shoulders, repeatedly kissing her on the face, attempting to kiss her on the lips and touching her leg and face with his hand
- Sexually assaulted a woman at Stirling Castle in November 2014 by touching her buttock with his hand over her clothing
tj
Sorry I thought that a "political hatchet job" implied false accusations?
Silly me. You obviously meant that new type of "political hatchet job" that uses valid complaints by people telling the truth.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
TJ I might have misunderstood you but I stand by what I said at the top of this page
quoting myself again feels a bit dirty, but;
epicyclo, and maybe tj
You do seem to be looking for a reason to find or create doubt and uncertainty about the allegations. You are using the timing of the complaints, the cocked up process and the lack of previous rumours as “questionable” features worthy of consideration.But have a think about how your “analysis” looks from the perspective of the complainants.
Have you considered that one of the main reasons for any delay might be the reactions, hair splitting and armchair analysis of people just like like you?
In any case, as its sub judice is it not best to avoid discussion of “things that suggest its all a lie” just as much as “things that suggest hes as guilty as sin”?
The facts will eventually come out and then we can all have a go.
I don't think you're being malicious, but, in my opinion, casting uncertainty and doubt around about the circumstances is as bad for the victims as "I knew he was a wrong'un!" can be for the accused.