I think our pasts are a major part of who we are and not being allowed to be asked about them seems a bit sad to me.
You do realise that Ngozi Fulani's past doesn't extend to before she was born don't you?
Perhaps I should carry my DNA results around with me. Bore the pants off them. Like most Brits ( anglo saxon 🙂 ) my recent DNA markers shows my ancestors were mainly danes, germans and french. Long ago markers are shared with the Sami people. clearly a true brit!
Why doesn't it? I have ancestry from England, Ireland and Scotland as does a lot of British people. My surname also has historical meaning.
It's all good.
But that transcript is pretty damning of someone pushing to get the answer that she had already made her mind up on.
I like being a mongrel Brit, it's what makes me truly British. Same for the English language, more words borrowed from other languages the merrier.
But that transcript is pretty damning
Well that's the whole point isn't it? It was a hostile interrogation based on a person's appearance.
Disappointing that someone in such a position and privileged background would be so crass.
That's WHY she was so crass.
Cloistered, comfortable upbringing, unable to understand what a life outside absolute privilege looks like.
If you ever watch any of those sort of "rich kids go skint" or "CEO on the shop floor" type programmes, anything that puts a rich , privileged type into a "common" environment, they don't have a clue. They don't even know such a world exists, they are unable to comprehend a world where people don't have staff or any money worries whatsoever.
A lot of MPs are also like that - the abhorrent JRM springs to mind as a good example. It comes as a genuine surprise to these people that the average person on the street can't just reposition their shares, liquidate a few assets, ask Nanny to sort the kids out or rearrange that week's Fortnums delivery...
I have a non-English name. I hated being singled out as a child (it wasn’t cool living in RAF territory as a German and bullying was rife) and those questions always used to completely do my head in.
Although I have chilled out (now schoolyard violence is less of an issue) sometimes I don’t want to explain my entire ancestry to strangers. So if I answer Bradford - where I was born - to the ‘where are you from’ question I expect that to be respected. Anyone following up from there can, frankly, do one.
I sometimes wonder whether the structure of English society is based on trying to other people by any means and as much as possible.
didnthurt
Full MemberI think our pasts are a major part of who we are and not being allowed to be asked about them seems a bit sad to me.
You're totally missing the point. This isn't about "asking about your past", this is about not accepting the answer when a black person says they're british.
You can ask about someone's family background, etc- but you've got to use a little tact and read the room a bit. But that's absolutely not what was happening here, she wasn't taking an innocent interest in a person's family history and just wording it badly. Don't let anyone pretend otherwise when they do this.
It never generally occurs to me to enquire about anyone’s country of origin, unless they have an unusual accent, and that includes regional accents, but unless there’s an opportunity during a conversation to bring the subject up, I don’t think it’s really a cool thing to do.
I work with quite a few people who are clearly of Central European origin, mostly Polish, but I think we’ve had some Romanian workers as well. They’re often chatting away to each other and I’m often curious about whereabouts their home country is, but I can’t bring myself to ask, it just doesn’t seem polite somehow.
This was interesting timing, as yesterday I was working on developing a hospital simulation exercise with an Australian Indigenous person. When our new intake of registrars arrive (from various parts of the world) in the new year one of the things we do is train them in "the way we do things here." A really good way of developing rapport with an Indigenous patient is to ask them "What is your country?" It's considered polite because it means much more than "Where were you born" and is more a question about kin and ancestry on both sides of the family and shows that you see them as an individual. The answer is rarely straightforward.
Personally, i'm fascinated by people's heritage, but to immediately ask questions based on appearance without additional context is exasperatingly lazy and arrogant.
My Polish colleague quite likes talking about his country of birth and culture . He did say that being asked "how he was" by people he didn't know very well was considered rude in Poland. And apparently us Brits do this quite flippantly according to him.
Śmigus-Dyngus anyone?
https://culture.pl/en/article/smigus-dyngus-polands-national-water-fight-day
As for kids, they will find the smallest difference in other kids in order to bully them if they feel like it. Vicious buggers... Most of them thankfully do seem to grow out of it though.
But as I've already said, the transcript is pretty damning of someone trying to get the answer that they already have made their mind up on. Which is obviously not really on.
I’m often curious about whereabouts their home country is, but I can’t bring myself to ask, it just doesn’t seem polite somehow.
How terribly British!
It's the first thing I would ask! I find people's backgrounds fascinating. Especially if I can learn more about the politics and current affairs of their country. Plus other culture aspects such food, religion, etc.
It all makes a tedious manual job more interesting and one of the many advantages of a multicultural society. I don't recall anyone ever appearing uncomfortable being asked about their culture, far from it.
Obviously I don't use Gestapo style interrogation like bedchamber Hussey.
“where you from, no really from”
I believe the actual answer is , A pond of chemical sludge, somewhere in the great rift valley.
“how he was” by people he didn’t know very well was considered rude in Poland. And apparently us Brits do this quite flippantly according to him.
When i first moved to Oz i noticed people don't answer the question. I think in Britain there's a "How are you?" "I'm fine*, how are you?" interaction. Here it's often "How are you?" "How are you?" where neither party answers... i find that weird.
*regardless of how you actually are as it would be rude to be honest of course.
Though actually I will ask “what’s brought you here” of someone with an obviously distant accent. I mean why not? Makes for a more interesting Uber ride for all concerned.)
Watch out the way you phrase the question as it may be interpreted as they got here illegally.
Like my colleague who kept questioning me about my being here. Passive so and so. Even when I told him plainly I am legally entitled to compete with him to get his job. He kept asking why I should be here. Then I just said something he didn't like to hear that I am a legal economy migrant and I can do a better job than him. I am here to get "rich"! He got annoyed but stopped dead when I told him my father probably protected his ancestral interests. Then I asked him why his ancestors come to this country to seek shelter and protection? Why didn't they fight like my simpleton father? (when Australian F1-11 landed in Borneo en route to OZ, only my father was allowed to check the plane because of his background)
You’re totally missing the point. This isn’t about “asking about your past”, this is about not accepting the answer when a black person says they’re british.
100% this.
It's easy just to see a slightly foolish/naive old-dear, who asked what she thought was a relatively straightforward question, and responded poorly when challenged on it by somebody a great deal less foolish and naive than her - and somebody not willing to just let it slide (and nor should she).
But reading Lady Hussey's CV I'm afraid that she personifies what's wrong with the institution of the monarchy/royal family/upper class in the UK, and it's hard to muster any sympathy when her lived-experience is juxtaposed with most peoples - oh and her daughter has now just married a Baron, and become a chambermaid (or whatever) to Camilla. I'm generally pretty ambivalent to the royal family, but this kind of thing has me eyeing my guillotine
Well that’s the whole point isn’t it? It was a hostile interrogation based on a person’s appearance.
You seem very clued up on what constitutes racism Ernie, so maybe you can help define this question.
If a woman's refuge that was dedicated only to white women, would that be considered racist ?.
It was a complete set up.....the woman was wearing traditional African dress and seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation....An absolute non story. She was looking for an opportunity for some publicity.
mefty has already tried the "she was dressed provocatively therefore she was asking for it" line of trolling, maybe you could come up with something original?
They’re often chatting away to each other and I’m often curious about whereabouts their home country is, but I can’t bring myself to ask, it just doesn’t seem polite somehow.
That's a shame.
I used to work with a fair few Polish and Romanian guys.
None of them were offended when I asked where they were from and had some really interesting chats with a few of the Polish guys about what life was like when it was a communist country.
Some were to young to remember so were interested on my take on it as I'd been there before it changed.
Got really friendly with a Romanian lad that was from the mountains and had a real love of the outdoors and used to love talking about the time he got to spend going back there.
Some of the photos he showed me looked like it'd be an brilliant place to ride.
It was a complete set up…..the woman was wearing traditional African dress and seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation….An absolute non story. She was looking for an opportunity for some publicity.
I can't believe I'm getting sucked into this, but...
Firstly, the lady in question is to the left of Queenie C in this picture, with her hand on another person's shoulder. She looks to be wearing a brown top. I'm not sure that classed as 'traditional African dress"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63822940
Secondly, from where have you deduced that she "seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation"?
Back under the bridge for you, sunshine.
tjagain
that is assault in UK law
So do you not need an element of violence to commit assault then?
Secondly, from where have you deduced that she “seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation”?
Apparently, Farage on GB News last night.
I get asked where I'm from occasionally, if people can't figure my accent out. Telling them I'm half Cumbrian, half Geordie, and I've lived in Leeds for 20 years doesn't really clarify anything...
So do you not need an element of violence to commit assault then?
nope
either a fear that violence may be done ie if someone is shouting at you they are going to kill you - thats assault without any touching. Or touching without consent - thats assault.
Most people confuse assault with assault occasioning actual bodily harm
Apparently, Farage on GB News last night.
Oh, right, well then, who am I to argue with such an unimpeachable source.
Opinion Column in the Guardian on it
Interesting that it focuses a lot on the bigger picture about social media (which leaked the details of the conversation) and the wider ranging issue that it's not just one person within the royal household, it's the royal household as an institution (with an overwhelmingly white staff).
Well that’s the whole point isn’t it? It was a hostile interrogation based on a person’s appearance.
You seem very clued up on what constitutes racism Ernie, so maybe you can help define this question.
I am the last person to ask what constitutes racism, its definition appears to vary massively.
I am certain of two things though, firstly that the touching of a complete stranger's hair and aggressive questioning concerning where the person comes from is extraordinarily rude.
And secondly that Lady Hussey would not have asked her hostile questions had the person being interrogated been white.
I will let you decide for yourself Lady Hussey's motive but the unacceptable nature of her behaviour is without doubt.
Anyone else watching question time last night get the impression even the GBeebies presenter was struggling? She was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Either say old people are racist, and piss off the 50% of the audience that are old and majority not racist. Or say old people should be allowed to be racist and piss off the majority of the audience who aren't racist?
Secondly, from where have you deduced that she “seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation”?
Plus thirdly even if it was a setup (which as you point out seems a tad unlikely) then it should have just provided a rather boring conversation and not the set of questions it did.
Either say old people are racist, and piss off the 50% of the audience that are old and majority not racist. Or say old people should be allowed to be racist and piss off the majority of the audience who aren’t racist?
Is that just using ageism to excuse racism?
"Oh look, she's an old biddy, we expect her to be racist..."
or
"Well yes she was racist but she's OLD, what do you expect?!"
??
As per that Guardian article, it's a shame she just resigned, it would have been a useful teaching opportunity and a way of showing that they wanted to learn from the mistake, not just have her step down and say "that's the end of that..."
then it should have just provided a rather boring conversation and not the set of questions it did.
Precisely. I have looked at Ngozi Fulani's website and frankly a lot of what she says is nonsense. Stuff like "back then when black people first arrived here, there was no benefit system". At the time of postwar immigration from the Caribbean Britain had a welfare state and universal benefit system that was unique in the Western World.
It seems quite obvious to me that Fulani has an axe to grind and is on mission so I am perfectly prepared to accept that she recorded the conversation for her own agenda. That doesn't make one iota of difference to me though, she didn't force Hussey to say the things she said.
And I think it is very useful if she did record the conversation as there can be no doubt about the exchange.
Black people arrived in the UK hundreds of years before that 🙂
If a woman’s refuge that was dedicated only to white women, would that be considered racist ?.
#AllLivesMatter
Unless you're going to argue that all people already get treated equally by society regardless of their sex, gender, race, skin colour, sexual orientation, age, employment, geographical location, social status, etc etc etc then it should be self-apparent that different groups of people may require different forms of support. Is Age Concern ageist? Barnados?
White people in the UK rarely get prejudiced against because they are white, outside of Tommy Robinson's **** fantasies anyway. I can't quite believe that this actually requires explaining.
Black people arrived in the UK hundreds of years before that 🙂
Yeah but by "back then" she is talking about the period that her parents came to the UK, not the 17th century.
Ah -so you know her intent do you? mansplaining? 😉
tjagain
either a fear that violence may be done ie if someone is shouting at you they are going to kill you – thats assault without any touching. Or touching without consent – thats assault.
Most people confuse assault with assault occasioning actual bodily harm
There was no fear of violence and I don't think that's the case regarding touching without consent. I read the legal definition and I can't see why it would be.
Anyway, it's off topic, just a point of interest.
It was extremely rude behaviour in any case.
When i first moved to Oz i noticed people don’t answer the question. I think in Britain there’s a “How are you?” “I’m fine*, how are you?” interaction. Here it’s often “How are you?” “How are you?” where neither party answers… i find that weird.
We do this here, rhetorical greeting questions. Two Lancashire lads meeting:
"Alright?"
"Owdoo?"
It always used to throw me a little in the US, a country who will never use two words when a paragraph will suffice. Go into a shop and they'll ask "how are you doing today?" I think, what's 'today,' did something bad happen? Then I wonder whether they actually do want to know about that odd twinge in my ankle that I woke up with this morning. Eventually I conclude it's just polite smalltalk and answer, "good thanks, you?" then get their life story followed by "hey, where are you from?" and that's another 15 minutes of my life gone whilst I strive to come up with a place name they've heard of. (Spoiler: it's "Liverpool." Semi-rural America sure does love the Beatles.)
Unless you’re going to argue that all people already get treated equally by society regardless of their sex, gender, race, skin colour, sexual orientation, age, employment, geographical location, social status, etc etc etc then it should be self-apparent that different groups of people may require different forms of support. Is Age Concern ageist? Barnados?
Im not arguing anything, im just asking a point,, though your answer/post is fair comment.
But can we look towards age concern as an example. Is there two or more types of old age pensioners, though barnardos is maybe not a good example to use, or do they choose one group of children over another.
I don’t think that’s the case regarding touching without consent. I read the legal definition and I can’t see why it would be.
so you don't think patting someones backside is assault? Its certainly what i was taught by a professor of law. touch without consent is assault sexual motive or not
As you say its a distraction from the real topic tho
I see it's being reported that Hussey (skrew thar Lady balls) was also giving Nazir Afzal a hard time (the tofu eating wokerati lawyer.)
Reported in the Mirror I think.
It was a complete set up…..the woman was wearing traditional African dress and seemingly was packing a device to record the conversation….An absolute non story. She was looking for an opportunity for some publicity.
Yeh, and those women wearing short skirts on a night out, they deserve it too. And paedos and fraudsters caught by sting operations, it wasn't their fault, if they hadn't been given the opportunity.....
Is there two or more types of old age pensioners, though barnardos is maybe not a good example to use, or do they choose one group of children over another.
That makes no sense. Is there two or more types of black women? Do you suppose they have a Pantone chart on the admissions desk?
An old-age charity helps old people. A black women's charity helps black women. Seems fairly straight-forward to me. 🤷♂️
tjagain
so you don’t think patting someones backside is assault? Its certainly what i was taught by a professor of law. touch without consent is assault sexual motive or not
I think that example would be indeed sexual assault, all i'm saying is that in the case in the OP post, i don't think merely moving somebody's hair is assault. It's not sexual touching, it's not violent. But you might be right, and I'm not about to have a ten page argument about it 🙂
Any case it's extremely rude, i'm honestly very surprised that somebody close to the royals would lack that basic level of respect. Imagine they'd be prim and proper to the point of absurdity.
so you don’t think patting someones backside is assault?
Touching someones hair is extremely long just to see a name badge, and giving someones bum a bit of a rub are two completely different scenarios TJ.
