Yes but you miss the point. It’s not whether or not it’s actually a security risk, it’s whether or not the company has prohibited it for some reason or other. A reason of which you might not be aware but is still important.
Your answer makes no sense. Your previous reply was that holiday cottage/ cafe wifi might not be secure and that might be the reason. I was merely saying that for the vast majority of wfh no one has bothered checking what broadband or data sim you are using day to day so IF dodgy wifi was the reason for not allowing it they'd look pretty silly unless they were checking what you were using every other working day.
and without a document to give them an answer, a lot of managers will simply default to ‘no’ rather then make a decision that will bite them in the arse later.
Agreed - On this occasion it is a single day, but someone else finds out what has been approved and asks for two days, four days, two weeks of 'working from a different location because it's a family holiday'. The company would then have a hard time saying no as it could be deemed unfair as they have set a precedent.
As harsh as it sounds, unless it is exceptional circumstances that could be recorded, I am with the employer here.
Your previous reply was that holiday cottage/ cafe wifi might not be secure and that might be the reason
No, my post said that the employer might not consider the cafe secure. Which is different to you considering it secure.
It's the sort of thing that could be brought up in a court case for example.
No, my post said that the employer might not consider the cafe secure. Which is different to you considering it secure.
It’s the sort of thing that could be brought up in a court case for example.
You are still not actually reading what is being typed.
Never mind, move on - irrelevant to the actual thread.
No chance they'll be tracking down to UK location, possibly they might block non-UK IPs but I doubt that either (as it's not trivial to do). So it basically it just comes down to whether she wants to risk doing it now she's been told she can't.
We've quite routinely had people working from second homes, holiday homes etc. The first lockdown put paid to a lot of that with the travel restrictions but there were definitely a couple of staff trapped abroad with families who continued to work as normal.
I can understand a company saying "no" to the request if there was no history of remote working but now, 18+ months since Covid became a thing, no-one should care and I doubt they'd even have noticed if she'd not asked.
Just tell them you're having bulders in and she's working from a shared desk workspace.
400 miles from home.
And that fact alone has left you fuming... "why the heck didn't she find somewhere nearer... oh well"
DrP
I’d just do it, but make sure you do the work, which it sounds like she will. As for location tracking - I’d be very surprised if they haven’t got better things to do!
I will qualify this by saying my boss is based on another continent and generally pretty good as long as the work gets done but I wouldn't even ask in the case, I'd just work remotely for the day and not give anybody the chance to question it as the work was getting done and I was answering the phone.
I set up a lot of security policies for o365/azure at my last work.
They can set conditional access policies by IP, geolocation, GPS via authentication app on your phone, even down to certain office buildings.
Whether it blocks access, triggers an admin alert, forces multi factor authentication depends on the set up.
There's other things like a new device or IP address that can flag up an issue too.
Whether or not that's implemented is debatable, but the possibilities are out there
Disclaimer - I do not work in HR.
My employer isn't bothered which 'home' you work from. During lockdown, a fair few went to stay with their parents/partners etc so they could be together. All that mattered was that the work was being done. I can't imagine this will be a big deal.
I really don't think they can define where your 'home' is. What if you had builders in for example, would they really say you couldn't work from another address?
The issue you have is that she has asked and been told no.
If she is going to do this I would suggest changing practice now. Start using a 4G router, blur backgrounds as standard. Make this the norm then, when working from another place, nothing will stand out as unusual.
I wouldn't even ask for a UK holiday. My wife will be doing just that over Christmas as she's a bit short of days.
Some can be weird about it - eg a customer of mine is locking down their remote access for suppliers/contractors to known public IPs (so people's home broadband) as a security stance which would make working elsewhere tricky.
Have "internet problems" and work from a cafe / friend or neighbour's wifi / hotspot for a bit. If no-one flags it you're fine.
Call in sick
Call in sick
Where is the 'rolls eyes' emoji again?
Sick note, self reporting. Dodgy prawn innit.
That, if her manager can’t make a common sense decision and hides behind a “computer says no” statement, then **** em 🤗
FWIW we were told earlier this year (Brexit related I reckon) that all WFH must be within the UK, as last year a fair number WFH at various overseas holiday homes etc.
it’s a taxation liability thing, that your employers now could be classed as having a base in a country and are liable for tax in that country.
Although can’t remember the last time the work police checked on me to see that I wasn’t working whilst on holiday 🙂
I think she might be on dodgy ground, right or wrong or chance of being caught aside, she has asked and expressly been told No. That would be noted as not following a reasonable request if she was caught, her company HR policy should list examples of misconduct and how it would be treated and whether it would be enough on its own or added to the pile - does she have any other HR issues pending?
Agreed – On this occasion it is a single day, but someone else finds out what has been approved and asks for two days, four days, two weeks of ‘working from a different location because it’s a family holiday’. The company would then have a hard time saying no as it could be deemed unfair as they have set a precedent.
The employer isn't losing anything. If someone wants to live in a UK holiday cottage somewhere for a month and carry on working why not if there is no requirement to be in the office?
As for the precedent, arguably it's a good one. Work is done better by happy staff.
As for worries about quality or quantum, that's why performance management exists. Arguably staff would be quite keen to stay with a good employer
I've approved this sort of thing in the past. I can see an issue from the employer's perspective that I don't think anyone else has mentioned. Whilst your wife is usually able to WFH, I guess if she was previously office-based before Covid there is still an expectation that with short notice she can be in the office to meet with other staff, managers, clients etc. I'd expect to be able to say to one of my staff today, I'll need you in the office on Monday next week. If the reason for refusing the holiday was other staff in same dept were away then it may become more likely that this person IS needed.
Of course you could be (in)conveniently ill - but you'll want to make sure that you are the sort of work colleague who doesn't post anything about the holiday on Facebook, Insta etc and sufficiently antisocial not to talk about the holiday to colleagues before or after! And unless the manager who refused the leave is particularly thick or forgetful they'll likely have their suspicions...
You are still not actually reading what is being typed.
Drop the passive aggression, we'll all be happier.
The employer isn’t losing anything. If someone wants to live in a UK holiday cottage somewhere for a month and carry on working why not if there is no requirement to be in the office?
An employer may be concerned that the person would be working in an environment where everyone else around them is 'on holiday' and productivity could be effected so it may simply easier just to say no.
Whatever the reason given for the refusal, we've moved on from the "can I work from a location that is not home?" onto the much trickier issue of the original request being specifically denied and her planning to do it anyway.
Working from another location was unlikely to throw up too many issues, in fact unless she has very stringently locked / monitored IT I doubt anyone would have noticed.
Specifically and knowingly breaching a request not to do it though is considerably more serious in the eyes of HR...
Even if you do a day's work perfectly from the holiday location, they can still get you on the grounds that you flagrantly disregarded a direct order from management not to do that.
What crazy-legs said ^^
and her planning to do it anyway.
I think you are guilty of reading the replies and attributing them to me (her) I havent indicated that we will ignore her managers instruction.
She may have been explicitly denied but does a line manager have the authority to dictate where a home worker sits when WFH? "Sorry, you can't work in the kitchen, only the dining room."
I think I'd be filing this firmly under "so what?" She works from (holiday) home, gets caught... then what? A formal warning for sitting in the wrong room? Good luck to them with that.
That would be noted as not following a reasonable request if she was caught
Worst-case scenario if they did say something, I'd be arguing that this falls under her legal entitlement to Flexible Working. In which case this is arse-backwards - it's not that she hasn't followed a (questionably) reasonable request but rather they've refused her reasonable request with no further qualification. They can't do that. If she wants to work elsewhere then they have to come up with a justifiable reason why she cannot.
Someone (Molgrips?) said earlier that there might be a valid reason of which she is unaware. That being the case (it almost certainly isn't) then they need to communicate that.
The only reason I can think to refuse offhand is if they don't think she'll be working properly if she's on holiday and it's jeff all to do with the location. Or if it's setting a precedence where other less trustworthy employees might do the same. Why would you burn leave if you could "work"? But that's easy fixed by "not telling anyone." As far as anyone knows you came home a day early only to be met with an Internet outage so had to pop round to a neighbour's. Geolocation of IPs is notoriously unreliable.
But yeah, the entire question is weird. It is highly unlikely that anyone would even notice unless they were deliberately going out of their way to catch her out. Even then proving anything would be exceptionally difficult, you'd be into the realm of a vendetta. File in the **** It Bucket and enjoy your holiday, she just needs to make sure she's especially productive because that will be far more likely to draw attention.
Oh yeah,
Next time, secure leave first and then book a holiday. (-:
Bit daft to ask in the first place tbh. If you are confident in the wifi, could try just logging into the home comp via teamviewer or something.
1) Make sure everyone knows what your home office looks like (I guess we've seen most people's offices on Teams etc by now)
2) Take a photo of said room, and use as your background on Teams.
3) Insist on a (short!) video call on the day in question. Don't hold anything up to the camera / allow any chance of glitches.
If she's being treated like a badly parented child - "No... because I said so." - then she could plaster her journey home from holiday all over social media, then plaster the return journey all over it, too.
Lots of "super positive" "taking one for the team!" and "what ever the cost we'll do it a ****Whit & Co!"
Next time, secure leave first and then book a holiday. (-:
That would be logical unfortunately not possible on this occasion. The holiday had to be booked before the window for booking work holidays was open.
>Bit daft to ask in the first place tbh
No. The reason for this was posted earlier. The refusal is for 1 day (a Friday) from a request for the full week.
always better to beg forgiveness than ask permission... slipped up there
That would be logical unfortunately not possible on this occasion. The holiday had to be booked before the window for booking work holidays was open.
"had to be" is always an interesting claim! but in any case between the work holiday calendar opening and your wife submitting her holiday request at least two other people got their request in and approved for the same day...
...either her place is like my wife's where the official diary opens on a particular day but quiet agreements have been made or managers have had prior access or your wife was tardy putting the request in when it opened. I've never understood companies that don't just automatically have next year's diary available well in advance, but I'd also say if I was in that boat I might have dropped my manager or the others I was likely to have holiday conflicts with a note to say "I'm planning these days"...
Just don't brag about it to the colleagues...someone is probably bitter enough to report it.
before the window for booking work holidays was open
Then how had other people already booked holiday ahead of her?
“had to be” is always an interesting claim!
Not a claim.
at least two other people got their request in and approved for the same day…
How do you know this?
…either her place is like my wife’s where the official diary opens on a particular day but quiet agreements have been made or managers have had prior access or your wife was tardy putting the request in when it opened.
Or possibly neither of these scenarios are true and there is a ballot system in a large department and the holidays we were trying to book were oversubscribed (albeit by only 1 day)
Then how had other people already booked holiday ahead of her?
See above.
Just don’t brag about it to the colleagues…someone is probably bitter enough to report it.
Its only a day in the van in the Lakes so not much to brag about but good advice 🙂
1) Make sure everyone knows what your home office looks like (I guess we’ve seen most people’s offices on Teams etc by now)
2) Take a photo of said room, and use as your background on Teams.
3) Insist on a (short!) video call on the day in question. Don’t hold anything up to the camera / allow any chance of glitches.
Spin that the other way around to mess with their heads. Take a photo of the inside of the van and use that as a background when working from the house. But not every call. Sometimes work from the van on the drive 'for a bit of privacy'. By the time 'the day' comes they'll be so fed up with asking your actual location you could be sitting in the van in the lakes and no one will know. Apart from the rain drumming on the roof obviously.
work from the van on the drive ‘for a bit of privacy’
I have actually done that when months of working in my shed has got to me, although not on the driveway... 🙂
The reality is she's now in the bad place of either working that one day and being pee'd off about it, or going against her line managers rejection, the problem is that even if there are no rules or guidance on this for the company, the LM has made a decision and put it in black and white, sadly for the sake of 1 day's holiday this'll just be an annoyance between your wife and her boss now.
These are the little things that break down relationships in the office, a more understanding manager would look at the options before making a decision, doubt that's possible now.
I run an IT Infra team and I would care one jot where she is working. Like someone says above just do it. I wouldnt even blur the screen, are you not allowed to work at a different location than your house, eg internet issues going round my mum's?
What is it with some people...
This would be laughed out of a tribunal, whats the difference?
you've been told no.
at that point it stops imo. It also highlights you out to be dishonest if caught.
She's been told no by someone who has no rights to dictate what building she's in when she's working out of the office, IMO.
Dishonest? There's no need to lie about it.
How far away from home is your holiday location?
If she's that concerned about it (and wants to be honest), is it possible to pop home for (the majority?) of her workday then drive back to holiday location again? (Not that I'd do that!)
In a previous role, pre-COVID, I had to provide phone coverage occasionally (on a landline) and it used to piss me off that I'd be stuck in the office basically waiting to answer a phone which never rang and for weekend's away, I could never skip out and get on the road a bit earlier to beat the traffic.
Now, thank god I'm in a different role and the management are a lot less concerned about face time in the office and we've had people work remotely from Brazil, India, Kazakhstan and Spain but all do it on the understanding that they have to be available for Zoom meetings for the majority of the home office work day (Pacific time zone). It works fine...
It being a Friday makes it easy, just take the holiday and she can work from wherever, no-one will be able to prove a thing and they won't care. If it was Wednesday and they were booking Mon-Tue, Thu-Fri it would be a bit more in their face.
This assumes there is no genuine need for a restriction on WFH location which seems to be the case.
