[Closed] When does it contain horse, when its MORE THAN 1%...

i dont see what the fuss is its all meat, why is eating a horse any worse than a cow

1% is most likely the reliable cut off figure for the DNA test...

DrP

You've got to set the threshold somewhere - DNA tests are so sensitive that they'll pick up much, much smaller trace amounts, so potentially there's a tiny bit of horse in everything.

A bit like how every breath you take contains some atoms breathed out by Genghis Khan.

i dont see what the fuss is its all meat, why is eating a horse any worse than a cow

there is a fuss, because (a) it's illegal to to claim something is one thing when it turns out to be another. If it was sold as horse meat, it wouldn't be a problem, and (b) the horses that have been used in these foods, have been coming from some very dubious sources, it's certainly not the sort of stuff you'd expect to find in a horse butcher in France.

sbd16v - Member
i dont see what the fuss is its all meat, why is eating a horse any worse than a cow

It's not as 'meat' goes, it's the drugs used to treat horses, that they are concerned about getting into the food chain (and the points made above). I think the real point is, that it was sold for 'human consumption' having reached/passed health/safety standards, yet is not what it should be. Remember all those Chinese babies that died, after there milk powder ingredients were substituted for something nasty.. It's smacks of that (or is just 'steps' away)

Think I remember on QI there being a legal amount of insect bodies allowed in our food.

[i]It's not as 'meat' goes, it's the drugs used to treat horses, that they are concerned about getting into the food chain (and the points made above). I think the real point is, that it was sold for 'human consumption' having reached/passed health/safety standards[/i]

Absolutely agree. And not sure if you know but drugs used on animals, especially 'food' animals, are more tightly controlled than those for humans - due to the food 'chain' issue.

it's certainly not the sort of stuff you'd expect to find in a horse butcher in France.

Is it not ?

What's the difference ?

After the media stampede dies down and the public start buying processed frozen beef meals again I think you'll find the big issue will be fraud. Agriculture is big business in Europe, especially so in France (where horsemeat isn't anywhere near as common these days as it used to be), and everytime a horse is slipped into the beef foodchain a cow isn't. Horse is a lot cheaper than beef and farmers don't like being ripped off (especially in France!). The underlying story revolves around money, miss-selling and fraud.

I was in the freezer section in my local French supermarket the other day. They had a notice up in front of the frozen lasagne section.

I thought the wording was absolutely brilliant, totally different from what would be found in the UK. It said something like:

"We would like to inform our customers of a minor problem with certain frozen beef products. Some products have been mis-labelled as containing beef when they may actually contain horse. There is no risk to health from consuming these products, but you may return any previously-purchased products if you wish."

i dont see what the fuss is its all meat, why is eating a horse any worse than a cow

It would be like buying an orange five, only to find out it was an old radiator with some posh stickers on it.

Is it not ?

What's the difference ?

z1ppy put it better than me...

It's not as 'meat' goes, it's the drugs used to treat horses, that they are concerned about getting into the food chain (and the points made above). I think the real point is, that it was sold for 'human consumption' having reached/passed health/safety standards, yet is not what it should be. Remember all those Chinese babies that died, after there milk powder ingredients were substituted for something nasty.. It's smacks of that (or is just 'steps' away)

Think I remember on QI there being a legal amount of insect bodies allowed in our food

Some years ago a colleague ordered an ISO standard for OSI but missed off a digit and got sent an ISO standard for cardamoms instead. It went into some detail about the quantity and type of insect bodies that are allowed. Bit of an eye opener, both that our food is not as pure as some might expect and that there are ISO standards for spices.

The specific medicine which is of concern (as far as I am aware...I only listened to a food programme special on Radio 4 about, I'm no expert) is 'bute' or Phenylbutazone -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylbutazone

Bute is a pretty common pain killer for horses. But obviously a dose for a horse would be enough for +10 people.

Its a 'red herring' though, as you'd need to eat the horse for it to affect you - upwards of 1/2 ton.

The specific medicine which is of concern (as far as I am aware...I only listened to a food programme special on Radio 4 about, I'm no expert) is 'bute' or Phenylbutazone -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phenylbutazone
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I heard yesterday (also on the radio) that someone would need to eat 500 burgers containing 100% horse meat (containing phenylbutazone) to reach the daily dose that's safe for humans. It's not cumulative as it passes through our system. So the levels found are not a health risk in any way.

Doesn't make it right that its there, but its a "non issue" in terms of food safety.

Apparently you would have to eat 100% horse meat burgers exclusively for breakfast, lunch and dinner and one for supper every day for years before the Bute caused a health hazard in a human adult, so of little risk. Though my main concern is the quality of the meat from these dubious sources (Horse meat is delicious and we should lift our silly ban on the stuff), and what else are they putting in there? We've already heard about Donkey meat, but DNA testing will only find something that you're specifically looking for. What are they going to find if they start looking for Rat meat?

Having said, it appears that this has been going on for years, if not decades, so it seems we might have been consuming it for years unbeknown to us and I'm not aware of any human becoming ill or dying as a result. I've always been very suspicious of the burgers you buy from burger vans, i'm sure they don't contain alot of beef - but I have them from time to time anyway in full knowledge that i'm probably eating the more nasty and fleshy parts of the animals anatomy - ear lobes, eyelids and other unmentionable things. But I am a big advocate of utilising all of the animal anyway!

What are they going to find if they start looking for Rat meat?

Rat meat? Maybe?

I wonder if they will find any human DNA in their tests? And if they do, will they tell us.

[i]Rat meat? Maybe? [/i]

They ought to have filters to stop them, at least we did in the corn mills 🙂

I wonder if they will find any human DNA in their tests? And if they do, will they tell us.

Either they wouldn't dare test it (because they will be), or they'll put the results down to people nicking their fingers on equipment etc.

On a slight tangent, if you see the way they dispose of 'fallen stock' using the mangle/chomper/thingy, you just now some people have ended up going the same way when they crossed the wrong person.

z1ppy put it better than me...

That doesn't really explain why it's different from horse meat that bought knowingly though ?

i dont see what the fuss is its all meat, why is eating a horse any worse than a cow

It's just another thing for the media to jump on and get worked up about.

It's just another thing for the media to jump on and get worked up about.

I agree. Who cares that the peasants are being taken for a ride, serves them right for being dim eh? 😯

, or they'll put the results down to people nicking their fingers on equipment etc.

I would hope not, any food contaminated by human blood is supposed to be destroyed

Apparently you would have to eat 100% horse meat burgers exclusively for breakfast, lunch and dinner and one for supper every day for years before the Bute caused a health hazard in a human adult, so of little risk.

Yep, I have heard that it is in effect completely harmless as you could never eat the the quantity of horse meat that would make bute a health risk to humans.

Which begs the question that if it is so harmless then why is meat from horses treated with bute banned from the food chain ? There is after all clearly no health risks.

Who cares that the peasants are being taken for a ride, serves them right for being dim eh?

No-one is mentioning the fact that REGARDLESS of whether they contain horse or cow they STILL contain unhealthy levels of salt/fats not to mention hydrogenated fats that DO have serious health implications.

That's because that would be a completely different issue, which isn't relevant to the fraud that is being investigated currently.

You must realise that surely.

Of course I do, I'm just saying that the papers have jumped all over something because it gives good headlines whilst ignoring a much more serious issue that's been going on for years.

That's why they call it [b]New[/b][i]s[/i] 😉

I'm just saying that the papers have jumped all over something because it gives good headlines whilst ignoring a much more serious issue that's been going on for years.

Newspapers have never mentioned that junk food is bad for you ? 😀

The point is no-one has had their health harmed by this "scandal" and no-one is affected except the bottom-of-the-barrel meat industry. It really is a non-issue blown out of all proportion. How many people here have been affected by it [b]at all[/b]?

It's a non issue in terms of Public Health. But then again nobody is really claiming any different are they ?

It's a Massive issue in terms of Food Industry Standards.

If you think different, I'm not sure you understand what's been happening.

It's a Massive issue in terms of Food Industry Standards.

I'm not sure you understand what's been happening.

The point is no-one has had their health harmed by this "scandal" and no-one is affected except the bottom-of-the-barrel meat industry. It really is a non-issue blown out of all proportion.

You must realize that surely.

i do, just finding it very difficult to give a shit

Well done you.

Loads of people do care about being lied to about what's in their food though.

And loads of suppliers and retailers car about being defrauded.

On an unrelated note, I have some "titanium" bike bits for sale if your interested.

Of course they may turn out to be any old cheap metal, but I'll charge you for titanium, and tell you that's what it is.

I presume you will be ok with that, it's all just metal at the end of the day right. And it won't be a health hazard or anything.

Loads of people do care about being lied to about what's in their food though.

No-one who is eating these products give a shit about what's in their food

With a Horse as High as yours, you could make a lot of lasagne for the dim witted peasants to put in their troughs 🙄

Anybody see that news item showing a Findus "Lasagne" being spooned out onto a plate?

It looked like baby sick with sheets of melted plastic. Mmmmm, yummy.

Do I care that cheap crap I wouldn't eat without being paid a million quid turns out to have something "wrong" with it? No. If you're shovelling this turd slop into your undifferentiating gobhole, you deserve all you get from it.

Shove THAT up your "high horse".

With a Horse as High as yours, you could make a lot of lasagne for the dim witted peasants to put in their troughs

[i]The point is no-one has had their health harmed by this "scandal" and no-one is affected except the bottom-of-the-barrel meat industry. It really is a non-issue blown out of all proportion. How many people here have been affected by it at all? [/i]

What, and you don't think this issue of fraudulent labeling could affect the Waitrose/Organic/etc (basically anything) stuff you buy?

Grow up.

Do I care that cheap crap I wouldn't eat without being paid a million quid turns out to have something "wrong" with it? No. If you're shovelling this turd slop into your undifferentiating gobhole, you deserve all you get from it.

What, and you don't think this issue of fraudulent labeling could affect the Waitrose/Organic/etc (basically anything) stuff you buy?

Grow up.

When Waitrose or my local butcher starts selling horse labelled up as sirloin steak or top rump please let me know about it.

So you [b]would[/b] like to be told if what [b]you[/b] are buying is misrepresented ?

But you don't think that people with less money than you should be able to expect the same ?

Just because you've got "less money" doesn't mean mean you have to live on slops. You DO need a sense of taste and a brain, though...

So you would like to be if what you are buying is misrepresented ?

no. You missed the eye-roll smiley. I would not need to be informed because it isn't going to happen

So would you like to be informed if it was happening ?

If your meat from the butchers had some bovine drugs in it that may cause cancer
Or the veg from the farmers market that was sold as Organic was covered in pesticides ?

Would you like to know or not ?

What people buy is up to them. Not you.

But you are saying that its OK for [b]them[/b] to be lied to, because they don't eat as well as you, or use as many raw ingredients. 😐

That is a nonsense argument. There is no correlation between the food chains of whole uk meat & veg and the multi-source, multi-country nightmare of bottom-barrel processed foods.

that is a nonsense argument

It wasnt an argument, it was a question.

I'll ask it again.

So would you like to be informed if it was happening ?

If your meat from the butchers had some bovine drugs in it that may cause cancer
Or the veg from the farmers market that was sold as Organic was covered in pesticides ?

So.

Would you want to know ?

Of would you you be happy for the suppliers [b]YOU[/b] buy your food from, to Lie to you ?

[b]If[/b] that happens I will asses that case according to it's merits. In [b]this[/b] case - the one we are actually discussing - the problem is entirely the fault of the consumers who have been demanding & buying super-low quality foodstuffs with incredibly convoluted, difficult to police supply chains. We have already established these people do not care what's in their food otherwise they wouldn't buy it.

We have already established these people do not care what's in their food otherwise they wouldn't buy it.

You've said that yes, not sure that counts as "we have already established" though.

These products [b]are[/b] unhealthy. The people buying them either don't care about this or do not care enough about what they're eating to find out if it is healthy or not. Either way [b]they do not care[/b].

Being a gay man who wishes to marry my partner and have Findus Lesagne for the wedding banquet, I'm finding a hell of a lot to concern me in the current news.

the problem is entirely the fault of the consumers

Brilliant.

The consumers get lied to by the suppliers.

But it's the consumers fault.

You couldn't make it up.

(Oh wait, you just did)

The point is no-one has had their health harmed by this "scandal" and no-one is affected except the bottom-of-the-barrel meat industry. It really is a non-issue blown out of all proportion.

Thats quite a difficult thing to be sure of - its not been apparent to the wider population that horsemeat has been consumed in any significant quantity. Legitimate horsemeat is quite safe to eat, but its not clear what the source of this meat is - given there is a sizable criminal, fraudulent operation going on you can't say that knackered old pets and horses that fell at beaches brook aren't entering the production line.

Given the apparent scale of the fraud - in terms of the number of places the meat is showing up you have to doubt that there are enough sources of healthy, properly reared horses, suitable for meat, to be available to slaughter to in the volumes that are required. There is however a steady supply of unaffordable and neglected pet horses going through the auction houses at a tenner a head.

Vetenary medicines used with those animals (particularly ones that race) make meat unsafe to eat. Conditions that might result from eating them such as Aplastic Anemia would't be attributed to contaminated meat as its been assumed thats not in our diet. Up until now.

Yes Neal. This is how supply and demand works. In exactly the same way, organic produce is now more available due to consumer demand.

If that happens I will asses that case according to it's merits. In this case - the one we are actually discussing - the problem is entirely the fault of the consumers who have been demanding & buying super-low quality foodstuffs with incredibly convoluted, difficult to police supply chains. We have already established these people do not care what's in their food otherwise they wouldn't buy it.

nurse! He's out of his bed again!

zilog6128 - Member
Yes Neal. This is how supply and demand works. In exactly the same way, organic produce is now more available due to consumer demand.

Ooooh, you big realist, you. 🙂

[i]zilog6128[/i]

What you have to understand is that people need food and the amount you can spend on food is pretty much dictated by your budget. But how much you decide to spend is somewhere between that and not a lot.

When we were loaded we bought top class ingredients from top class providers, and it was all superb. But we were spending the same per meal as poor/benefit folk had to spend a week, nevermind what they actually spent.

We need to budget now, but aren't yet poor enough to have to buy 'base' food - but if we were I'd still expect the same level of control to have been in place.

Bottom line - it doesn't matter what it says on the label, as long as it is accurate.

Also we are lucky where we live, there is a butcher, baker and greengrocer within 20 yards of each other - and I usually buy the food to cook for that day.

This is a separate argument, but the idea that anyone is "forced" into buying cheap processed food instead of cheap whole food is complete nonsense.

If that happens I will asses that case according to it's merits. In this case - the one we are actually discussing - the problem is entirely the fault of the consumers who have been demanding & buying super-low quality foodstuffs with incredibly convoluted, difficult to police supply chains. We have already established these people do not care what's in their food otherwise they wouldn't buy it.

Lying about what is in food is a big thing, you just don't appear to give a shit [b]this[/b] time because it doesn't affect [b]you[/b]..... yet. Probably doesn't affect me but I still think its pretty damn important to be able to know what is in the food you eat, whether you care or not, some don't.

I've nowt against horse meat, I'd try it, if it was offered but it would have to be officially reared for human consumption with all the legal requirements that entails

Yes Neal. This is how supply and demand works. In exactly the same way, organic produce is now more available due to consumer demand.

What's that got to do with Suppliers lying to customers, yet it somehow being the customers fault in your fantasy world ?

I'd quite like to hear the views of someone who's actually been affected by this, rather than more pseudo outrage from armchair campaigners.

zilog6128 - Member

the only people eating these products are the people who choose to eat the lowest quality crap available who clearly don't care about what they're putting in their bodies anyway.

A common opinion that falls down when you remember it's been found in school meals...

zilog6128 - Member

.... rather than more pseudo outrage from armchair campaigners.

In contrast your clearly expressed outrage at [i]"cheap processed food"[/i] is genuine ?

So what is the vehicle for this [i]genuine[/i] outrage, other than posting on a mtb forum - I'm assuming you're not, God forbid, a mere 'armchair campaigner' ?

Good point Northwind. If there is a silver lining to this debacle then perhaps it will be sorting out the travesty that is UK school dinners!

Ernie, the thing to do is just stop buying the rubbish. No market = no product.

Yes but are you campaigning from your armchair ?

I'd still like to hear how it's the fault of the consumer, that the food industry is lying to them ?

You've managed to explain that yet.

Has to be said I'm now "horse-meat-curious" (and how bad that sounds...) I think I'll pick up a couple of steaks from the local supermarket, it's not just France that sells it, Spain does too...

I vote with my wallet Ernie. I would encourage everyone to do the same.

You're missing the point Neal. People have been happy to eat this rubbish for years despite knowing what goes in it [i]legally[/i]. The content of the meat is not what they should be worried about.

I would encourage everyone to do the same.

From your armchair ?

Or Bill Boaks stylee ?

[img] [/img]

You're missing the point Neal.

No I'm not, I'm just making a point you have no answer for, and you don't like it.

People have been happy to eat this rubbish for years despite knowing what goes in it legally. The content of the meat is not what they should be worried about.

People can be as unhealthy as they like, that's their business.

They also have the right to buy food that contains what it says on the label.

The fact that you look down on them for being unhealthier than you doesn't change that.

Zilog, you still haven't answered neals question.
I am glad that your priviliged position allows you to vote with your wallet.
I am now also to do the same, however that has not always been the case.
No need to get the violin and hankies out, however thing were really tight for me growing up. My mum did buy at the budget end of the range but she would not have wished too.
To assume that everyone who eats cheap processed food is ignorant and deserves nothing better is an opinion I would expect from members of the 'nasty' party.
It does not matter how cheap a beef burger might be. If that is how it is labeled then it should be beef that is in it.

They also have the right to buy food that contains what it says on the label.

Athgray, to reiterate I am saying it is the [b]labelled[/b] content of these foods that is the biggest problem, not the unlabelled content. Everyone seems very concerned about maybe having eaten a tiny amount of perfectly healthy horse meat but (largely) ignoring the very unhealthy trans-fats etc that these foods contain.

I doubt the people who actually eat these foods care as much as you seem to (I'm presuming you don't eat them)

Do you only eat at home and make your own sausages, burgers, etc ?

[url= http://www.foxnews.com/health/2013/02/15/horse-meat-found-in-british-schools-pubs-and-hotels/ ]Horse meat found in British schools, pubs and hotels[/url]

Eating processed food doesn't mean that you don't care about what you eat. But I'm sure you knew that.

Have to respectfully disagree with you Ernie. That is [b]exactly[/b] what it means. On the rare occasion I eat out I have to accept that it could potentially contain [i]anything[/i]. Not saying that is ideal or how it should be, just a fact of life.

Everyone seems very concerned about maybe having eaten a tiny amount of perfectly healthy horse meat but (largely) ignoring the very unhealthy trans-fats etc that these foods contain.

You're making two assumptions - one is that the horsemeat is perfecty healthy - it is - but this is an issue about meat that has entered that has found its way through illegal channels and has had its origins deliberately obscured. Horse meat isn't perfectly healthy if it hasn't been sourced from healthy animals, that have been reared for use as food.

The other assumption is that the illegal meat is only finding its way into low grade / low market food - the breadth of companies and outlets effected suggests that this fraud is either commonplace or is happening far up the supply chain.

Aside from meat a wide range of foods are subject to fraud, mis-labelling and substitution and it tends to be premium foods that are most frequently doctored and they have the highest margins and the most profit to gain. Tons and tons and tons of food are mixed, doctored and mislabelled and the fancy, desirable, wholesome and organic are the foods most commonly monkeyed about with.

Have to respectfully disagree with you Ernie. That is exactly what it means.

If you don't make your own sausages, or you eat in a pub, it means that you don't care ? ?

That's hilarious ! ! 😀

Good points mac, I actually agree with both of them although with regards to the first, AFAIK none of the horse meat found thus far has been found to be tainted.

When I talk about "low quality food" I would actually include ready meals and other processed foods from e.g. Waitrose, m&s, etc. You are dead right with your second point which is why I think everyone should be eating as much whole food as possible.

Ernie, obviously if you are conscious about trying to eat decent food you will choose a reputable butcher, pub, etc. But you can never know for certain so being realistic you have to put your cares "on hold" temporarily.

You are dead right with your second point which is why I think everyone should be eating as much whole food as possible.

One of the first big food doctoring scams I became aware of, back in the 90s was organic grain, and that still goes on

[url= http://www.thelocal.de/society/20111208-39391.html#.UR_tE6UmUUU ]Italian authorities said they had busted a scheme in which more than 700,000 tonnes of non-organic food was sold as organic – and sold at the higher prices commanded by such products, making at least €220 million profit, the Tageszeitung newspaper reported this week. [/url]