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So the people who protest about systemic racial injustice fall into the same category of idiots as people who protest their right to go to the beach and have a piss up.
Gotcha.
So the people who protest about systemic racial injustice fall into the same category of idiots as people who protest their right to go to the beach and have a piss up.
Whilst I take your point, would it really make a vast amount of difference to the protesters if they chose to protest against "centuries of injustice" in August rather than June?
You're equally putting yourself at risk whether it's for a noble and vitally important cause or because you fancy a beer with your mates. And if, as is believed, the demographics doing the protesting are at a much higher risk from CV19 then it's even more reckless.
How often have we said on here, it's no good being right when you're dead.
Inkstar - you have clearly taken my words and twisted them to suit your view point. In non lockdown situation I would fully support the legal protest and free speech against racism and the despicable treatment that has been used against bame people. At this current moment in time I don’t think it’s safe to be in large groups what ever the reasoning.
I suspect the protestors broadly agree with this (quote from twitter)
You can be pissed off at people flocking to the seaside & ok with those demonstrating against a horrifying injustice. Risking your life to paddle is not the same as risking your life to take a stand against someone unjustly losing theirs.
But of course YMMV
@cougar - I don't think it's OK for you to call me a moron rather than ask me to explain further. You clearly haven't thought very much about this.
Of course the virus isn't racist, and it's vanishingly unlikely that there could be a genetic racial component to its effects. (How to Argue With a Racist by Adam Rutherford has some excellent thoughts on genetics and race - a bit too much to get int in detail here though). It is far more likely that the causes are socio-economic, although I do recognise that this won't be known for quite some time. Either way, I can certainly understand why those protesting might see their increased COVID risk as yet another product of a racially biased system.
As for your personal field study, I can see how that has led you to your conclusion. I don't think that your data support your conclusion though, and I think that your sampling technique may be susceptible to bias.
Anyway, I'm off away from this thread now. Kudos to those of you here who have kept it thoughtful and constructive.
Cougar,
Would it make a vast amount of difference if the protesters postponed their protest till August?
No. The difference wouldn't be vast, it would be seismic.
It would not get the exposure it is getting now and it would be said: 'Why are you bringing this up now? It happened months ago.'
The protesters have made a calculated risk, weighing up the risk from coronavirus against the risk of missing the best opportunity to bring public awareness to racial injustice that has presented itself in a generation.
Mattvanders,
How can I twist your words when you repeat them?
Saying you would fully support legal protest and free speech against racism in a non lockdown situation is no different to saying that you would not fully support protest and free speech against racism in a lockdown situation.
@cougar – I don’t think it’s OK for you to call me a moron rather than ask me to explain further. You clearly haven’t thought very much about this.
I wasn't calling you anything, I was referring to the people (of all demographics) who are wilfully ignoring advice during a global pandemic which has so far killed six and a half million people and counting.
No. The difference wouldn’t be vast, it would be seismic.
It was a genuine question I was asking, I should have been clearer about that. Sorry.
Wow, just had a read of this thread, some staggeringly simplistic bobbins spouted along with some borderline outright racism, but this bit really stood out as quite unbelievably stupid and quite worrying in terms of attempting to shut down valid debate
As an aside, do you have any direct experience of UK police behaviour?
If you have, your words have some value; if not….
Saying you would fully support legal protest and free speech against racism in a non lockdown situation is no different to saying that you would not fully support protest and free speech against racism in a lockdown situation.
I think you are confusing lockdown with being a political act, not a public health one.
I’m simply relaying, anecdotally and I would hope without prejudice, what I’m seeing here with my own eyes when I venture outside. I can take photos if you don’t believe me.
There is a smidgen of disapproval in your tone I think you’d agree?
Maybe, just maybe, they're really, really, really angry at centuries of systemic racism and police (i.e. state) brutality, with the fact that they are literally in fear for their lives in any interaction with the police, and it has now got to the point where that fear and anger has boiled over.
How rationally do you act when you're in a state of massive fear and anger?
I've been following the Covid issue in Botswana, they've been very successful, it puts another angle on the 'racial' element.
Last night I was getting on the phone all the de-legitimise the protests stuff: agitators behind it, protesters are pawns of higher powers, they're attacking the Cenotaph, ex-military rough sleepers just want handouts (from someone on a private income and married to a military man), a few rotten apples. Gah. Middle England.
The BAME problem with covid-19 is hardly rocket science. Dark skin in Northern latitudes means even less sun/vitamin D than the white population. Look at how the Somalis in Sweden are suffering too. But of course, it’s so easy to blame depravation and prejudice.
I've heard that hypothesis since the early days of Covid. Its a nice idea, but as yet I don't believe anyone has shown a correlation between severity and Vit D. Oddly its not particularly hard to measure and actually has something that could be actionable - whilst the govt advice is for us all to take more Vit D anyway thats low profile.
The assumption in the statement about Somalis in Sweden suggest that there is no depravation or prejudice toward black people in Sweden. An interesting reference point would be the initial data in Scotland - which suggested we weren't seeing the same ethnic effect here. Now I'm not niave enough to think we don't have blatant and background racism in Scotland. But we also get less sunlight so should have even less Vit D, and have areas where there is very high depravation even amongst pasty white people who trace their ancestry to MacDonalds and Camerons.
The BAME problem with covid-19 is hardly rocket science. Dark skin in Northern latitudes means even less sun/vitamin D than the white population. Look at how the Somalis in Sweden are suffering too. But of course, it’s so easy to blame depravation and prejudice.
Care to explain the causality?
Come on its not rocket science
Care to explain the causality?
Plenty of research and references online from eminent doctors and scientists if you care to look regarding a) Vitamin D deficiency effect on the immune system b) Vitamin D deficiency on all populations due to lack of sun exposure.
Point B is exacerbated by people of colour living in Northern latitudes as malatonin in their skin cuts down vitamin D absorption from the sun.
Dr Robert Heaney is a good source as is Dr Michael Holick. Several good videos on YouTube have been taken down in recent weeks due to the Covid Stasi there seemingly objecting to even doctors posting about combating covid-19 with vitamin D. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I'm not sure why this should be as vitamin D deficiency is the underlying pandemic which is adversely affecting EVERY ethnic group.
The vitamin D deficiency issue could also be another factor why old people in care homes are being adversely affected. It's not just because they are old. They're shut away indoors and receive no vitamin D supplementation. You virtually get no vitamin D from your diet unless you eat very specific foods and even then you need to eat a lot of them.
I would seriously urge everyone to look into vitamin D deficiency because for at least 4 months of the year in Winter in this country you will get no vitamin D from the sun even if you sunbathed for the whole day. The sun is just too low in the sky. Another reason why any sort of virus including influenza, seems to attack the population in Winter.
Sorry I dont want to find it myself, I wanted you to point me at the causal evidence.
Come on its not rocket science
A poor choice of words on my part, it's a lot more complicated than just putting a rocket into space. The cure is VERY simple though, everyone just take 5000 IU vitamin D3 per day plus 100 mcg vitamin K2.
I'm sure in decades to come historians will look upon this period of history as the medical (and nutritional) dark ages where profit was more important than health.
Sorry I dont want to find it myself, I wanted you to point me at the causal evidence.
Watch these if you can be arsed.
a global pandemic which has so far killed six and a half million people and counting.
Has it?
I watched a few mins of each before I got bored, still not seeing any evidence of a causal relationship between covid and vit d.
I watched a few mins of each before I got bored, still not seeing any evidence of a causal relationship between covid and vit d.
I wonder why?
Oxford University review of Vitamin D evidence
VERDICT
We found no clinical evidence on vitamin D in COVID-19. There was no evidence related to vitamin D deficiency predisposing to COVID-19, nor were there studies of supplementation for preventing or treating COVID-19.There is some evidence that daily vitamin D3 supplementation over weeks to months may prevent other acute respiratory infections, particularly in people with low or very low vitamin D status. This evidence has limitations, including heterogeneity in study populations, interventions, and definitions of respiratory infections that include upper and lower respiratory tract involvement.
The current advice is that the whole population of the UK should take vitamin D supplements to prevent vitamin D deficiency. This advice applies irrespective of any possible link with respiratory infection.
Clinicians should treat patients with vitamin D deficiency irrespective of any link with respiratory infection.
Policymakers should attend to public health measures to ensure the population has adequate vitamin D intake.
No link to Covid19 but taking Vit D is a good thing?
No link to Covid19 but taking Vit D is a good thing?
Wouldn't be a vitamin if it wasnt worth having would it!
I wonder why?
Because there is no evidence of a causal relationship I imagine
No link to Covid19 but taking Vit D is a good thing?
There is no money to be made from vitamin D which is why there are very few definitive studies being done. Mostly it is anecdotal evidence which is emerging but if you watch particularly the Dr Robert Heaney video I linked to the evidence is pretty compelling, not just in terms of covid-19 but for all causes of mortality.
There is growing evidence that a lot of coronary heart disease is as a result of calcium deposits in the arteries which vitamin D3 in conjunction with vitamin K2 can reverse. Many doctors dealing with covid-19 are mystified as to why so many patients are dying from organ failure including heart attacks as opposed to pneumonia as would be expected. I think the situation with covid-19 is more complicated than just vitamin D boosting the immune system to fight the disease directly.
Vitamin D deficiency can take several months (depending on dosage) to build up the 25(OH)D3 level in the blood sufficiently to reverse a lot of the health problems caused by the deficiency. Even a large part of the medical profession do not understand the optimum blood serum levels of vitamin D necessary to combat a lot of the health conditions.
The problem with designing a randomised control trial for covid-19 and vitamin D is that you would have to identify two groups of individuals who have not had the virus and supplement one group whilst giving the other a placebo and then tracking the covid-19 outcome in the whole group when infected allowing for all other co-morbidity factors. Near impossible I would say.
Because there is no evidence of a causal relationship I imagine
No, it's because of your refusal to see it. You haven't got an X-Box by any chance have you?
Because there is no evidence of a causal relationship I imagine
No, it’s because of your refusal to see it
Show me the evidence then.
Oxford University review of Vitamin D evidence
VERDICT
We found no clinical evidence on vitamin D in COVID-19. There was no evidence related to vitamin D deficiency predisposing to COVID-19, nor were there studies of supplementation for preventing or treating COVID-19.
Vit D. There's *massive* correlation:
(He cites the original research so you can check.)
What's the downside of preventing yourself from being Vid D deficient? Vit D is cheap, or free.
Vit D. There’s *massive* correlation:
University of Oxford review of the evidence says there isn't. Bloke on the internet citing YouTube says there is.
Who to believe?
Anyway, moving away from the point of the thread really
The problem with designing a randomised control trial for covid-19 and vitamin D is that you would have to identify two groups of individuals who have not had the virus and supplement one group whilst giving the other a placebo and then tracking the covid-19 outcome in the whole group when infected allowing for all other co-morbidity factors. Near impossible I would say.
True, but there have been studies into Vitamin D deficiency and infectious respiratory disease in general and it was found to be a factor:
It's quite a punt with people's lives to rule out a cheap/free action that has no downside and has been shown to reduce ARIs from 60pc to 30pc.
University of Oxford review of the evidence says there isn’t. Bloke on the internet citing YouTube says there is.
Who to believe?
(He cites the original research so you can check.)
"Therefore, maintaining a sufficient vitamin D status in the adults is beneficial in prevention
of ARI and may therefore be of benefit in the COVID-19 pandemic."
It's going to be years before we have a properly published article specific to COVID-19. In the meantime why wouldn't something that prevents ARI prevent be of benefit in the COVID-19 pandemic? ..and what's the downside of taking a free, risk free action? FFS, even if it doesn't help prevent COVID-19 it will *definitely* reduce the chance of other ARIs!
If 80pc of Black people in the USA are Vit D deficient why on Earth wouldn't you want them to have less Acute Infectious Respiratory disease? What about the 40pc of White people who are Vit D deficient? Should they get more Vit D or not?
True, but there have been studies into Vitamin D deficiency and infectious respiratory disease in general and it was found to be a factor:
It’s quite a punt with people’s lives to rule out a cheap/free action that has no downside and has been shown to reduce ARIs from 60pc to 30pc.
outofbreath, I agree. As I said previously there is a lot of evidence out there and the solution as you say is very cheap and easy. Not something drug companies want to hear obviously or many others who refuse to see the evidence.
Vitamin D deficiency across the World is a huge problem not just in terms of covid-19 but in many other diseases. It is a Global scandal that such a cheap and easy fix is being overlooked. The ironic thing is that the lock down is/was just making matters worse by forcing people to stay indoors rather than getting out into the sunshine.
outofbreath, I agree. As I said previously there is a lot of evidence out there and the solution as you say is very cheap and easy. Not something drug companies want to hear obviously or many others who refuse to see the evidence.
Yeah, 100pc in agreement with you - I was just trying to add another voice of sanity and point to the evidence so people can judge for themselves, sounds like you know more about this than me anyway.
Point B is exacerbated by people of colour living in Northern latitudes as malatonin in their skin cuts down vitamin D absorption from the sun.
Forza and OOB, not being funny but do you know the difference between a review of the available evidence and looking at individual trials/case reports? The Oxford review team will be neutral, they're not carrying out research in that area, they're looking at it from a population health angle. They did a good job on reviewing the Tamiflu stuff if you remember that and highlighted it was ineffectual.
I don't think that's what the evidence is saying though, vit D levels aren't contributing to COVID cases. I don't think anyone's saying you shouldn't take vitamin D supplements for general health and a better immune system, and I agree you should (thats what the Oxford review says). Just that it's not a contribution to COVID cases in BAME people.
There is a smidgen of disapproval in your tone I think you’d agree?
I disapprove of their reckless and selfish actions. I would be equally disapproving if it were a bunch of white grannies getting together for tea and scones.
a global pandemic which has so far killed six and a half million people and counting.
Has it?
No, it hasn't, I read the wrong stats column. 6 and a half million confirmed cases, approaching 400,000 deaths. 40,000 of those - fully one tenth of the world - is in the UK.
but do you know the difference between a review of the available evidence and looking at individual trials/case reports?
Yup, they looked for existing reports into COVID-19 and Vit D specifically and found none. Fine, COVID-19's only been around for a few months why would there be? However there *is* overwhelming evidence of a link between Vit D and ARIs. COVID-19 is an ARI.
If they'd done a review of Vit D and ARIs in general they would have found evidence.
Just that it’s not a contribution to COVID cases in BAME people.
...but you do accept it *IS* a contribution to ARI in BAME people.
So you're arguing that although Vit D deficiency *is* a factor in ARIs, (60% down 30%), it can be ruled out in COVID-19, and the reason that you think it can be ruled out the is The Argument from Silence that nobody's done a study on it yet.
There are shades of face covering here here. Nobody did a study to see if there was benefit to normal punters, so 'they' went with the argument from silence and assumed there was no benefit. 4 months later when they actually did some tests they found there was a benefit. Meanwhile countries in the East decided it was worth a low risk punt, wore face masks in spite of the lack of evidence and, guess what, they had far less infection and months later the evidence caught up. Wearing face masks was risk free and costs about £3. Maintaining healthy levels of Vit D is risk free and cheap/free.
In fact if we're going with a facecovering analogy, ruling out Vit D is like having studies that prove every colour of face mask works and then not using white facecoverings because there's no specific study for white facecoverings.
You know Vit D helps prevent other ARIs, but you're not willing to accept it might work on the latest ARI. A cynic might wonder if you'd take a different view if the people who were going to end up dead from that tenuous assumption didn't have dark skin.
I don’t think anyone’s saying you shouldn’t take vitamin D supplements for general health and a better immune system
No, but they *are* saying there's no benefit to taking it to protect from CORVID-19. Which, given CORVID-19 is the ARI of the moment, is literally a fatal assumption based an an argument from silence and contradictory to everything we know about ARIs.
No, it hasn’t, I read the wrong stats column. 6 and a half million confirmed cases, approaching 400,000 deaths. 40,000 of those – fully one tenth of the world – is in the UK.
So far. tbh, this pandemic is far from over. Just even taking a laymans look at these graphs, looks like we're heading, on a world wide scale, to another up tick. Which if you consider the first up tick as, China, second, as Europe and the US. I worry that this next up tick is going to massive, if you consider the difference between the first and second. I hope I'm wrong.
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As for the UK, I wonder if there's a limit to how many vulnerable will be affected with a certain amount of time. Biggest worry is the advise saying to the vulnerable, the ones that have been completely isolating, they are allowed to go out doors now. I think that is probably more of a worry than anything else.
Any protest really should be spread thinly though. And if you are protesting, you should really be avoiding vulnerable people in your lives for a few weeks.
But it's not just protesters eh, things are clearly getting busier everywhere and people are interacting more.. Protests are a tiny part of that.
Yeah, 100pc in agreement with you – I was just trying to add another voice of sanity and point to the evidence so people can judge for themselves, sounds like you know more about this than me anyway.
You're doing an admirable job of catching up mate, keep going!
But it’s not just protesters eh, things are clearly getting busier everywhere and people are interacting more.. Protests are a tiny part of that.
Aye. This time last week if I went for a walk up to the park I'd see like three cars go past. After they announced easing the lockdown, the Saturday before the Monday it was due to start the same road was like the bloody M6.
We're doomed, aren't we.
Aye. This time last week if I went for a walk up to the park I’d see like three cars go past. After they announced easing the lockdown, the Saturday before the Monday it was due to start the same road was like the bloody M6.
We’re doomed, aren’t we.
Not if the proportion of people who have actually contracted the virus but are asymptomatic are to be believed. It would be interesting to see how many people involved in the UK protests fall victim to the virus now. I'm guessing they were mostly young people though who will have little or no reaction so not much will be made of that. It would be ironic if Barry Gardiner came down with it though!
As I said previously there is a lot of evidence
You can keep saying this but it wont make it true 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.
Appropos of nothing:
The Egyptian Health Ministry will distribute a million drug doses of Vitamin D to quarantine hospitals, as an important element to support the immune cells of the doctors treating coronavirus (COVID-19) patients.