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i've also had to deal with a mouse problem, but i didn't use traps or poison. it's not their fault my garage is a warm place for them to live and it's not my right to kill them off. sonic devices or blocking holes and removing food supply does the trick.
i wouldn't get roaches or rats if it wasnt a shthle in the first place tho would i )
So if you had a rat/wasp/cockroach/mouse/ant infestation you would just "live with it"??
No, surely the best way is to prevent them in the first place by being clean and securing any entry places rather than just accepting they happen and then wiping them out? With the exception of roaches, the rest are fairly easily removed without mass murder 🙂
My Dad spent years trapping tree rats from his garden, used to clear 2-3 a week, never made any difference to the amount he used to get, all that happened was other tree rats from overlapping neighbouring territories used to invade!
ski, he must've realised that would happpen right? 🙂 my dad was the same with moles, they drove him nuts for years much to our amusement..
Yep, I think so, but kept him busy & gave him something to moan about 😉
james-o - Member
LHS, it's not a bigger argument, it's a moral point. who are we to judge which animals are ok to kill at will for no real reason, and which are not?
Simple, we kill the tasty and annoying ones - top of the food chain innit. Should lions not kill zebras? Or are they morally superior to humans?
jimmers, rats or pigeons, squirrels etc, makes no odds to me but that's just my pov. the vermin classification is about disease transfer or damage to crops etc i think, so rabbits would be vermin too. so yeah if you had a major health issue relating to rats in a hotel for ex then they'd be killed off, fair enough it wouldn't make sensse to argue against that however i feel. but having a garden area full of squirrels as well as mice at times, and having no problems with them, i'm anti this unthinking 'kill em it's just vermin' approach when in many cases they're doing no actual harm. it's just about rationality.
anyway, lunch over, hippy mode off 🙂
After reading this thread and the relentless slaughter of tree rats (still vermin though) may not be for me.
My auntie drowns at least one a week.
We've been talking about getting a dog for a while and a jack russel is the current favourite (more thinking to be done as it is not a decision to take lightly). May be this is a good excuse and doubles up as a squirrel deterrent.
captjon, i did say i had no issue with killing for food, it's natural. killing out of annoyance, well then someone may need to look at their tolerance levels first..
Simple, we kill the tasty and annoying ones - top of the food chain innit. Should lions not kill zebras? Or are they morally superior to humans?
With the greatest respect, the lions don't kill ones that annoy them, only the ones that they eat or threaten their food. That's pretty fair isnt it?
Either way, glad jimmers has has second thoughts (or at least postponed the less friendly way!).
jimmers, the dog would be a lot more forgivable than your aunt drowning animals, with respect to her etc..
Grey squirrels are about twice the weight of a red squirrel.
Grey squirrels carry squirrel pox past pox onto reds, then the reds die.
http://www.scottishsquirrelsurvey.co.uk/pox.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/outdoors/articles/squirrel_pox/
Grey squirrels are vermin.
james-o - Member
captjon, i did say i had no issue with killing for food, it's natural. killing out of annoyance, well then someone may need to look at their tolerance levels first..
The "it's natural" argument is a very dodgy one. The next logical step is to adjudge what isn't natural, and there are plenty of problems to be had there.
The "it's natural" argument is a very dodgy one. The next logical step is to adjudge what isn't natural, and there are plenty of problems to be had there.
Just because there are problems doesn't mean we shouldn't ask though does it. Head in sand?
Grey squirrels are about twice the weight of a red squirrel.
Grey squirrels carry squirrel pox past pox onto reds, then the reds die.
http://www.scottishsquirrelsurvey.co.uk/pox.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/outdoors/articles/squirrel_pox/
Grey squirrels are vermin.
But ultimately species quite regularly get overcome by invading diseases and species transported from one country to the next by various means. Doesn't mean it's right to kill them. The reds have every right to kill them off, I just don't see where we get the right to decide what gets destroyed and what doesn't, regardless of method of introduction or their ability to beat native animals.
LHS - Member[b]killing animals if not for food or self defence is inexcusable[/b]
So if you had a rat/wasp/cockroach/mouse/ant infestation you would just "live with it"??
Bet your gaff is a nice place to be!
It's a lovely place to be. I live in the countryside, so if I killed all the mice I saw it'd be a full time job. I just secure my house so they can't get in in the first place. Not had a problem with wasps, I always make sure my eaves are well secured. Can't comment on the rest as it's never been an issue. Get the occasional mole hill but just flatten them and it's fine.
Actually, the horses in the field next door chew my hedge. I might just shoot them.
Actually, the horses in the field next door chew my hedge. I might just shoot them
You'd be well within your rights.
Captjon, it is natural to kill for food in the context of this discussion and the food chain that you mentioned, surely? it's a simple statement. if i camp out, catch a fish and eat it, it's natural. i may not need to, but if that meal replaces a burger, then i still feel it's more natural and in keeping with 'nature's way' or whatever you want to call it. on the same basis, a lion eating a man is also natural. it's just the food chain and intelligence doesn't preclude us or any other animal from it.
unatural killing for food would be something like a debate over abbatoirs or mass farming, that's not what we're discussing here.
i'm talking about the personal morals relating to killing an animal that is doing no dicernable harm, killing for annoyance as you say. thats not something i can understand or empathise with.
that is doing no dicernable harm
Go and interview a red squirrel then come back and answer.
"Grey squirrels carry squirrel pox past pox onto reds, then the reds die."
true.
"people expand their environment at the cost of animal's lives, even entire species" also true.
so by this logic people are vermin. in some respects i wouldn't disagree, but it shows that killing off an animal due to it unintentionally upsetting the previous balance is against basic Darwinism? i mean the grey squirrel isn't exactly guilty of intentional genocide is it )
http://www.europeansquirrelinitiative.org/summary.html
Its a European wide problem.
"...the grey squirrel has a dramatic effect on the bird population by destroying nests (eating the eggs and the young chicks)."
http://www.songbird-survival.org.uk/predators/grey-squirrels/
LHS, we should kill all lions and cheetahs off then, as the antelopes would be really happy.
Darwinism. survival of the fittest. i know they were introduced, but the spread of animals naturally or unaturally doesn't change the moral point about killing them because you think it's justified.
macavity, should we kill all domestic cats with air rifles? my neigbour's cat kills birds regularly. that's what cats do, it's instinctive. i don't like what it does but i wouldn't kill it for doing so, the cat hasn't got the ability to reason this. we do, and surely should.
tree-magnetActually, the horses in the field next door chew my hedge. I might just shoot them.
Let me know if you do, I'm rather partial to a bit of equine steak. 8)
[url= http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/chef-hopes-city-diners-will-go-nuts-for-squirrel-1.1023369 ]Simples[/url]
[i]The reds have every right to kill them off,[/i]
I am fascinated by this idea. I [i]think[/i] it may imply that, say, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia-Herzegovina was morally acceptable, but jimmers drowning a grey squirrel is not.
Which is an interesting position to my mind. 🙂
james-o - Member
Captjon, it is natural to kill for food in the context of this discussion and the food chain that you mentioned, surely? it's a simple statement. if i camp out, catch a fish and eat it, it's natural. i may not need to, but if that meal replaces a burger, then i still feel it's more natural and in keeping with 'nature's way' or whatever you want to call it. on the same basis, a lion eating a man is also natural. it's just the food chain and intelligence doesn't preclude us or any other animal from it.unatural killing for food would be something like a debate over abbatoirs or mass farming, that's not what we're discussing here.
i'm talking about the personal morals relating to killing an animal that is doing no dicernable harm, killing for annoyance as you say. thats not something i can understand or empathise with.
Unless you're camping in a cave and catching the fish my hand it isn't a very natural process at all. In fact, is recreation time natural?
My point is that what is and isn't natural is relative, and therefore a pointless argument to make.
Jimmers... thank God this is the internet or I'd have thought I'd gone mad.
In view of the opinions expressed on here I think the best thing for you to do would be to invite the squirrels round to yours for a drink and a nibble. Explain your position, make sure they know you are offended by their constant digging and appeal to their better nature. If you are firm but fair I am sure they will see your point of view and agree to dig up someone else's garden then you will be happy, the sqizzers will be happy and there will be no point for precious moralising with everyone getting hot and bothered. 🙂
hehe fair point..
captjon, yes recreation time is natural. we have all strived for it since time began. sex is recreation time. but all that aside, arguing what is and isn't natural really is a big debate and it's shades of grey (oops!) as well as a waste of time. one animal eating another for food is natural/normal whatever you want to call it, in most peoples eyes. we've been doing it for a long time. killing animals out of minor annoyance / fun / cos you don't like them is wrong in most peoples eyes too. that's a pretty simple point that comes down to morals not philosohical argument.
you can justify it by finer points of argument if you like, i don't actually know what your thoughts on it really are either. but ultimately, it's a personal call and on this one, since it's not a legal issue as far as i know, we only have to answer to ourselves.
some might have already said this but could the REAL problem be your wife and not the ickle-wickle squirrels?
hmmm?
Just to jump in with both feet and say I'm in favour of wiping greys out. They need to be controlled. Those who think the countryside is full of flowers and no animals should die are urbanised and removed from nature. Ill educated even. Man is part of nature, and thanks to our large brains, can kill for reasons beyond hunger and animal instinct. In this case, because grey squirrels damage woodland habitat, carry diseases harmful to indigenous squirrels, and displace them. They are a man created problem and so there is no way you could argue that man shouldn't blitz them all within the UK.
If you disagree with any of the above I suggest you educate yourself.
Just thought I should mention that if you trap a squirrel they fight like billy o when caught...,. just ask goons dog I seem to remember he was mauled by a squirrel
we have a cat that catches, kills and eats them. he was up to about half a dozen last season.. have to keep an eye out in the cellar, that's where he hides them.
have you contacted the council ? they have pest control, they would at least tell you what you can and can't do, and what they will and won't do.
spud gun ?
Spud gun? Probably, if it's one of those ****-off ones using water pipe and propane propellant and whole potatos. That aughta take the little grey buggers out, no problem.
Oh, and they taste like chicken, apparently.
Here you go, this ought to do the trick:
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This is probably the best long-term solution, as suggested by several others:
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I'm a bit confused by all this - where do 'squirrel rights' come from then? Surely if we live in a universe governed by causality, the whole notion of intrinsic morality is a fallacy anyway.
"Squirrel rights" come from the same place that yoof's "respect" does.
We are all entitled to our beliefs/concepts of morality the trouble arises when you try and justify them on an internet forum. Some people will agree with you, others will think you are bonkers. Some will try to shame you into siding with them, others tell you the first bunch are bell ends. It is the same as religion, only more "right on"! 🙂
We are all entitled to our beliefs/concepts of morality
Who says? Where does that 'entitlement' come from?
(PS I'm a bit bored this morning and prevaricating in the face of a significant pile of dreary admin tasks)
We are all entitled to our beliefs/concepts of morality
...as long as we keep them in our heads! 🙂 Once you let them out however...
(I have an equally dull pile of work in front of me so I too am bored 🙂 )
"Squirrel rights" come from the same place that yoof's "respect" does.
A 9mm stuffed down their baggy jeans?
They must have been reading this thread yesterday, they were lined up at the bottom of my paddock last night like targets a shooting range, swear one of them flicked me the vees. 😯
Did they threaten you about abusing their squirrel rights at all?
Just to jump in with both feet and say I'm in favour of wiping greys out. They need to be controlled. Those who think the countryside is full of flowers and no animals should die are urbanised and removed from nature. Ill educated even. Man is part of nature, and thanks to our large brains, can kill for reasons beyond hunger and animal instinct. In this case, because grey squirrels damage woodland habitat, carry diseases harmful to indigenous squirrels, and displace them. They are a man created problem and so there is no way you could argue that man shouldn't blitz them all within the UK.If you disagree with any of the above I suggest you educate yourself.
an oasis of sanity in a sea of ignorance, supposition and townies who think they know better (i bet some of them are cat owners so therefore forfeit any argument about killing things as they choose to have a wanton killing machine in the house as a pet)