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When my wife is in labour, at 02:30hrs and needs to get to a hospital double quick, and no ambulances are available due to cutbacks, you can stuff your autonomous speed limits up your ‘arris, thank you very much!
[irrelevant anecdote]Not that I called an ambulance, but when my wife went into labour at 02.30 on Christmas Day morning I was looking forward to my 90mph journey to Guildford. Annoyingly, mrs njee20 demanded smooth over fast, and as such I never got to enjoy the completely deserted roads. Sad times.[/irrelevant anecdote]
I personally think that the potential for cars to be on the wrong side of the roads for longer offsets the benefits of automated speed limits.
Maybe if people know they wouldn't be able to 'accelerate out of trouble' they wouldn't make chancy overtaking maneuvers?
[edit] or perhaps brake and pull back in rather than going ever faster in a bid to get past at all costs?
Personally I like the idea that the limit isn’t enforced but exceeding a limit causes a spike to protrude the drivers rectum
FIFM
And I like the idea of remote VED/Insurance/MoT on vehicles whereby if any one of the three arn’t satisfied the vehicle drives itself off Beach Head locking the doors on the way and thereby disposing of the Meat Popsicle in the drivers seat.
👍🌤
Like I quite like the idea that anyone caught speeding in built up areas has thier vehicle crushed whilst the owner & driver watch and get charged for the disposal process too.
exceeding a limit causes a spike to protrude the drivers rectum
That'd only encourage some folk.
Perhaps a spike emerging from the centre of the steering wheel would be more effective?
Or disable the air bags if you are more than 10mph over the limit and let Darwin do the rest?
Maybe if people know they wouldn’t be able to ‘accelerate out of trouble’ they wouldn’t make chancy overtaking maneuvers?
I doubt it'd make much difference TBH. Did people drive more cautiously before the advent of airbags?
I wonder whether road safety would increase or decrease overall if we replaced the drivers' airbag with a 6" steel spike in the middle of the steering wheel.
Jinx.
Cougar: if you haven't read it then take a look at the book "Risk" by John Adams, especially this page:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=dui_qLXcPa0C&lpg=PP1&pg=PA154#v=onepage&q&f=false
His website is worth a read too: http://www.john-adams.co.uk/
The essential argument is that people automatically balance risk in both directions to their own acceptable level:
Increase the risk by putting a spike on the wheel and they reduce the risk back down by driving slower.
Reduce the risk by making a road straighter, wider or better lit and people increase it again by driving faster.
Imagine how much more annoying it would be to get stuck behind one of those 40 in a 60 types...
Not much of a downside, but the only one I can think of... (except...)
Actually, as I was typing I thought about my cycle commute along a long straight A road. It's a 40 limit and people take chances to overtake when there's something coming the other way fairly often. If they were speed restricted I reckon I'd get a hell of a lot more close passes than I do now. It usually being the slower cars, who are next to me for longer, who don't get past before they pull in. Especially vans, lorries and buses and (as per thread a while ago) tractors.
So I think full automation, not this half arsed version.
Not being a driving god like some, occasionally I have misjudged an overtaking situation, for example overtaking a car doing 50 in a 60 and finding it taking longer than anticipated. At that point it’s far safer to put the foot down and get by as soon as possible, even if that means I break the limit.
Has anyone ever had to accelerate themselves out of a problem they didn’t get themselves into in the first place?
Why do you need to break the speed limit to drive a pregnant woman to hospital?
As already mentioned, autonomous vehicles are going to make this argument irrelevant.
Anyone know what the proportion of car related deaths are caused by exceeding marked speed limits?
From memory, as the primary cause, 4%. Inattention number one cause. That was for KSIs, not just fatalities.
Has anyone ever had to accelerate themselves out of a problem they didn’t get themselves into in the first place?
Yes. I would almost certainly have been killed a number of times if I hadn't been able to accelerate past trucks driven by people who are apparently unable to check their mirrors before suddenly changing lanes.
Because a speed limit doesn't indicate a safe speed that the road can be driven at...its a limit, for example a lot of twisty country roads have 60mph speed limits, but are nowhere near safe or able to be driven at 60mph. So what do you want to limit?...the ultimate speed, which may be unsafe for the road or the conditions of the day so utterly pointless, or the safe speed that you can drive that road?
Also we've got the safest roads in the world and speed is not the cause of most crashes (although crashing at a higher speed will increase chances of serious injury or death)...typically it is driving too close to the car in front and people not paying attention. We're only so fixated on speed because it is easier to tackle and generates a nice amount of revenue. We've got a lot of bigger causes of death on our roads, and in our wider society, to deal with before we get down to the last half a percent of causes of death. It's about focussing resources on the biggest hitters...assuming of course you're genuinely interested in reducing road deaths. You can't tackle everything simultaneously.
Ultimately when we have self driving cars in the not too distant future, it wont be an issue, so as soon as that happens the better...not because people will be enforced to travel at 'safe speeds' but we will remove the real problem on our roads of people simply not paying attention and driving too close to the car in front.
Personally I like the idea that the limit isn’t enforced but exceeding the limit causes the car to turn off the stereo, and Bluetooth, and start blocking mobile signals.
I'd happily take that. Except perhaps on motorways. And just limit the speed in towns please.
Re. accelerating out of trouble, you might have someone doing 55 on straights but going incredibly slowly round corners. Wouldn't fancy trying to overtake without exceeding the speed limit but it would get frustrating being behind them for any period of time.
Maybe a button you could press to make the car in front slow down when you're overtaking to complement the speed limiter?
I suppose the other factor as with many laws is that it's kind of seen as "It's not ok to do unless you do it at somewhere nobody cares". You'd be taking away the ability to do that, think cheeky trails etc. The law's always been made in the knowledge that it's to give the right impression, not necessarily be followed religiously. I think to enforce the law without loosening it a bit would make many unhappy.
Main argument against is the contract would be managed by crapita or some of the other idiots. So huge expense and all the 30mph roads would register as 300mph and the motorways as 7mph.
Cars are already speed limited on smart motorways, it still doesn’t stop accidents.
Whats wrong with doing 150mph on a deserted road ? That in itself is not dangerous
you might have someone doing 55 on straights but going incredibly slowly round corners. Wouldn’t fancy trying to overtake without exceeding the speed limit but it would get frustrating being behind them for any period of time.
If the only way to get past is to break the law then don't try and get past? What's it going to cost you - 5 minutes on a journey?
What other areas of the criminal law do people feel it's appropriate to ignore on a regular basis and at their own discretion?
Imagine how much more annoying it would be to get stuck behind one of those 40 in a 60 types…
Yeah, sorry.. that’s me right there. I annoy plenty of people and that’s not restricted to posting on here 🤪🤷♂️
I’d quite like to see all vehicles have a scrolling information board fitted to the rear of the car, say on the boot where it’s easily visiable.
On the scrolling information screen can be narrative that the driver dictates or perhaps a system narrative or even a remote narrative that’s come from HAL or something.
The scroll narrative could then issue “back off big boy I’m driving at the regulated speed limit” or “of mouth breather, stop texting and concentrate on piloting that steel people killer you are sat in” or “Moron, yip you in the white van, yip you.. back off sunshine otherwise I will report you for driving without due care and attention” or “Mummsy, stop feeding your kids in the back seat whilst you apply makeup.. you need to get up earlier or take proper control of the offspring you’ve brought into this world” or “BMW driver.. B.M.W DRIVER, YES YOU THE TYPE FACE IS IN BOLD BECAUSE I KNOW YOU DO NOT LIKE BIG NOR COMPLICATED WORDS SO BACK OFF AND STOP PRETENDING TO BE DAMON HILL”
You get the gist.
One especially for truck drivers “**** off you ****er”
From memory, as the primary cause, 4%. Inattention number one cause. That was for KSIs, not just fatalities.
That's not the way the STATS19 recording works as I understand it. It identifies the contributory factors involved. It doesn't identify a primary cause. Here's the form they use:
Whats wrong with doing 150mph on a deserted road ? That in itself is not dangerous
Correct. The dangerous thing is assuming it is deserted.
A world in where no one is killed in an RTA but we all die of boredom 🙂
That’s not the way the STATS19 recording works as I understand it.
Not now but I'm going back some way. It was around the time the "one third lie" was being trotted about.
It wont happen. Just thing of the millions in revenue the government would loose if speed cameras became obsolete
My co car is tracked & speeding is flagged up -- we have been advised that speeding is a disciplinary offence - I have no idea where the limits are set but acts as a bloody good deterant I can tell you.
What other areas of the criminal law do people feel it’s appropriate to ignore on a regular basis and at their own discretion?
I don't have pedal reflectors on my bicycle. I do have a bright LED lights and reflective clothing trim.
Not a patch on my great grandfather though, he never once attended archery practice. What if the french had invaded? Got a nice medal in WW1 as a pilot though.
Take them as more guidelines than hard and fast rules.
I like to use the goldilocks argument for driving. I think I said this last year in the snow (that would be great with our auto speed cars doing 60 on black ice)
If you're going faster than everyone, you're probably wrong; if you're going slower than everyone, you're probably wrong too. Keep in the middle, and you are allowing real time mass data collection and experimentation to determine your best course of action. Not just speed, you can apply it to other things like slip road merging and so on.
My co car is tracked & speeding is flagged up — we have been advised that speeding is a disciplinary offence – I have no idea where the limits are set but acts as a bloody good deterant I can tell you.
my old company had pool cars that did this. Sent an email to your line manager. someone got 70 in a 30, threatened with instant dismissal, the works. Worked out it was from a motorway passing over a 30mph road when quite a lot of other people got the same. Took months to sort out the software (if it ever got sorted). at least it was an email, not slamming the brakes on for you on the M4.
ayjaydoubleyou wrote
My co car is tracked & speeding is flagged up — we have been advised that speeding is a disciplinary offence – I have no idea where the limits are set but acts as a bloody good deterant I can tell you.
my old company had pool cars that did this. Sent an email to your line manager. someone got 70 in a 30, threatened with instant dismissal, the works. Worked out it was from a motorway passing over a 30mph road when quite a lot of other people got the same. Took months to sort out the software (if it ever got sorted). at least it was an email, not slamming the brakes on for you on the M4.
I worked on a vehicle tracking system for a while that did this sort of thing. In the case of what I worked on it worked by the tracker having a SIM and sending data like position, speed, acceleration etc... back to the server. The server then did the clever stuff like speed limit checking and geofences (for speed limits it was using google speed limit data and the lat/lng of the vehicle), it was usually pretty accurate but certainly not perfect.
I worked on a vehicle tracking system for a while that did this sort of thing. In the case of what I worked on it worked by the tracker having a SIM and sending data like position, speed, acceleration etc… back to the server. The server then did the clever stuff like speed limit checking and geofences (for speed limits it was using google speed limit data and the lat/lng of the vehicle), it was usually pretty accurate but certainly not perfect.
this was roads crossing over, so exact same lat and long. despite the previous 1000 and subsequent 1000 data points being on a 70mph motorway heading east/west, one point on a north south 30mph road was enough to trigger the alert. Maybe it has got cleverer.
Mebbies everyone should just download the Aviva App and be done with it.
Obvz, that App is faultless and accurate and the data hived off it isn’t used for any other purpose than tracking the driver and then applying some humongous algorithms to apply some “driving god” logic and sprinkled with fairy dust for added “god” status.
No stats are available from Aviva about people who speed or break the law, because obviously that’s private data and shouldn’t been seen by anyone other than the driver and the company..
Yeah, yeah right.
Has anyone ever had to accelerate themselves out of a problem they didn’t get themselves into in the first place?
Yeah, me.
Cars are already speed limited on smart motorways, it still doesn’t stop accidents.
I thought the point of of smart motorways was to improve traffic flow, not reduce accidents.
If you’re going faster than everyone, you’re probably wrong; if you’re going slower than everyone, you’re probably wrong too. Keep in the middle
There's a term for this, 85th percentile.
But wouldn't there be a danger of an outbreak of penile shrinkage amongst the petrolheads?
as these theoretical vehicles progress through the second hand market
I see a future where there isn't a second hand market as we know it; rather, the leasing model will continue to expand and only the very rich will own their own cars…
I would also expect that every scrap of data that is generated as we go about our business in our cars is ruthlessly exploited by the private sector company that holds the road contract in order to offset their running losses because they underbid in order to win the govt contract in the first place.
Imagine how much more annoying it would be to get stuck behind one of those 40 in a 60 types…
They can do 40 in a 60 as much as they want, makes them relatively easy to pass when it’s safe.
When they do 40 in the 30 through the next village or the 20 past the school, because they are selfish morons of enormous magnitude, that’s when it starts to vex me.
as a side effect it also makes them harder to pass safely, because I’m often hundred of metres behind once the speed limit changes, so takes a while to catch them again.
The problem would be ****s pretending that they need to break the speed limit to "accelerate out of trouble".
So Im driving my speed limited car down a 60 mph road at 60 and come round the corner into a 30 mph. At this point presumably my car is going to automatically do an emergency stop to bring my speed down to 30. The chap following me also at 60 comes round the corner to find my car doing its emergency stop to get me from 60 to 30 but hasnt started its emergency stop yet because the car says it doesnt need to yet.
No, clearly a system that made your car slam on into a full emergency stop when it wasn't an emergency would be dangerous.
I think such a system would be much more like:
*beep* *beep* "30 Zone - Speed Limit Exceeded"
*beep* *beep* "30 Zone - Speed Limit Exceeded"
*beep* *beep* "30 Zone - Speed Limit Exceeded"
*beep* *beep* "Warning - Reducing Speed in 10 seconds"
*beep* *beep* "Reducing Speed"
..begins braking gently..
That may seem far-fetched, but autonomous vehicles will have to do something similar.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">They can do 40 in a 60 as much as they want, makes them relatively easy to pass when it’s safe.</span>
Thing is.. [i]sometimes[/i] you need to go over 60 to get past because (maybe bikebouy can explain this, as he's admitted to being one), though they appear to be content going 40 in a 60 (and are upset if someone is following them), they ALWAYS take umbrage at being overtaken.... ALL OF THEM. Some of them just flash when you've passed, others do actually speed up a bit when you begin your overtake. So knowing your car won't go over 60 will mean you probably couldn't take the chance of passing.
So when I drive my German registered car to UK, I’d be well safe, being limited to doing 60kmh in a 60mph zone
My motor has a camera based speed recognition system but it seemingly recognised I was in France and adjusted the warnings accordingly - impressed me!
Proximity cameras on motorways should be the next step, I believe these exist in Germany already and are good at preventing tailgating.
No proximity cameras in Germany, what they do have is cameras that monitor lane hogging and issue fines for doing so.
I don't see there is any reason why your car would have to do an emergency stop any more than it does when you change the cruise control speed. Knowing where the signs are coming up (it's not like their location changes frequently) would make it smoother and safer than a normal driver.
any more than it does when you change the cruise control speed
absolutely. A few cars i've driven have had a dual mode cruise control that can be used as a speed limiter (you set the limit). Seemed completely safe to me, I found it useful. I use cruise in our car on a lot of 30 and 40 limit 'suburban' roads, and on the motorway. Strangely I've never picked up a speeding ticket, through the clever system of paying attention to the speed limit and driving below it.
Self driving cars might be a long way from fully developed but the technological challenges that people are using to argue against must already be bunk. Self driving cars will need (and must already have) an up to date and accurate speed limit map - your sat nav doesn't, it's a secondary feature that gives advice. That said, i've found the limit displayed by our satnav to be remarkably accurate whenever i've used it.
accelerate out of trouble’
All the stuff I've read on Self Driving cars suggests this is just a pistonheads argument (also in the car will have to decide between hitting old lady and group of schoolchildren question). The answer is always emergency stop as the way of causing least harm - if there is a collision it happens at lower speed which is better for all.
The answer is always emergency stop as the way of causing least harm – if there is a collision it happens at lower speed which is better for all.
No, it isn't.
I'll give you an example, as someone else asked earlier too.
Slowing / stopping is almost always the correct course of action - it's what they teach learners to do - but that really only applies if the hazard is in front of you.
Some years ago now, going through a green traffic light at a crossroads, a car coming from the left ran the red light at speed. If I'd dropped anchor he'd have t-boned me; if I'd done nothing he'd still have run into the side of me only further back. I moved over to the right to give myself more space and booted it, basically got the hell out of the way as he shot behind me.
Lesson learned, I always check side roads at crossroads now even if lights are green. But I still hold that if I'd done anything other than stand on the loud pedal that day it would've cost me a car and potentially considerably more than if anyone had been in the passenger seat.
Cougar, can you put some numbers to that example? Ie, what speed were you going, how much time did you have to decide and stand on the pedal?