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I’d apply the same standards to anyone. No fan of BoJo.
I really don't believe you. You don't have to be a fan to buy into this BS 'oh it's just Boris being Boris, haha' narrative. When the reality is he will just say anything he thinks will serve his cause at any given moment. It's not funny or acceptable, and this is how we end up with people like Trump being president.
I'm not fan of BoJo, at best he's an embarrassment and shouldn't be in any position of power. However I also think this is more a stupid over-statement of a link as being proof rather than a deliberate falsification. PD confirms it's Novichok and they or MI6 likely brief him it was developed under a Soviet-era programme and was only known to have been produced in what was at the time a Soviet territory and anything stockpiled would almost certainly have been returned to Mother Russia.
So bumbling Boris is hearing is a very specialist nerve agent only known to have been developed by Russia and mistakenly phrases it as PD confirms this instance of the agent originated in Russia.
As has been said, given the importance of getting everything right on this even that's not an excusable mistake to make and he should be fired but to try and make it into some deliberate conspiracy and cast increasing doubt on whether Russia was responsible I think is a mistake.
As to why Russia would use such a specialist nerve agent - well it has parallels with them using Polonium that could be traced to a Russian reactor. They want people to know it was them (to send a message to anyone that crosses the state) without having to admit it and risk facing more severe international retaliation. Unfortunately BoJo being incompetent is just making it easier for them to play their game.
+1 grum
Well, according to R4 Today, which is the closest thing we have to Fox and Friends in this country, it was "clumsy language" by Bozo, which was followed by a "Labour claim" that he had misled the public.
So - we aren't so far from Trump-land after all.
That’s actually deeply disturbing, DrJ
In other news, the cat might be toast, but it looks like Skripal is recovering rapidly: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/06/sergei-skripal-no-longer-in-critical-condition-and-improving-rapidly?CMP=fb_gu
I guess we can let Russia have its diplomats back now, unless the RSPCA now have international sanctioning powers...
Meanwhile, up the river in Amesbury...
http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/16333464.amesbury-incident-police-confirm-novichok-exposure/
As ever, the Journal should be your source for news on this.
Wow...... what is happening in this country. Were they deliberately poisoned, did they come across some reminant from before or are they involed somehow.
Any chemist know how easy it is to make?
And to think, our brave and noble future monarch, who'll soon be head of state for several of His Majesties Governments the world over was in Salisbury recently!
Democracy in PERIL!!
Shut down the world cup, fly our boys home n bomb Putin and his cronies back to the Tzar age!!
We can't tolerate the indiscriminate killing of cats and guinea pigs!!!
Wow…… what is happening in this country. Were they deliberately poisoned, did they come across some reminant from before or are they involed somehow.
Any chemist know how easy it is to make?
They are all organophosphorus compounds that at first glance look terrifyingly simple to make, just in terms of the reagents and rudimentary transformations involved. Like a one-armed man with access to a bathtub could be brewing up kilos of the stuff. This is unlikely to occur, fortunately, as the virulent toxicity of the final product (plus stability issues in a lot of cases) makes it very difficult to purify and handle, meaning chemistry expertise and equipment is needed. So it's in the realm of the state, rather than terrorist, production of chemical weapons [the sarin attack in Japan 20 years ago I guess tests this statement, but that was a singular example of craziness - religious cult leader built a 30 million dollar lab to produce the substance].
The novichoks AFAIK are mixtures of two chemicals (binaries) to solve the problem of handling the nerve agent. One part will be an organophosphorus precursor of much reduced toxicity, that could be claimed to have legitimate use (e.g. as a pesticide) and the other part will be something common and innocuous like an amine or a nitrile, mix them together and you get the weapon on demand.
It's depressing stuff, tbh, and I hope the Amesbury couple pull through. One for jivehoneyjive - At least they didn't have to send the samples far for analysis - Porton Down (where VX and many more nerve agents were invented) is only 3 miles away...
Meanwhile, in Swindon, GWH is on lock down. Copper with possible symptoms. Has apparently been transferred to Salisbury.
Gary Wilmots house?
My uncles house is currently taped off in Amesbury, but he has no idea why! They haven't told him anything despite his house being behind the tape. I drive past it on my commute, just a few bored looking police men standing around.
The woman in Amesbury has just died. ☹️
Is it suspected that they’ve come into contact with the exact same nerve agent that the Russian father and daughter did? I don’t mean the same type, I mean the same actual source?
if not, there could just be some nutter out there with a nerve agent (that’s not affiliated with a country etc) and they’re leaving this stuff lying around
They reckon its either the discarded container the previous poisoner used, or excess poison he had was dumped somewhere.
The local MP said on R4 this morning that the couple had drugs problems and were in the habit of searching through bins! Bizarre.
Looking through bins....?
How many weeks since the original poisoning? Surely the bins in Salisbury would have been emptied at least once since then.....
So either Wiltshire council are really bad (they're not quite that bad-I live near Salisbury) or the perpetrator has more recently disposed of the agent.
That's if its the exact same batch.....
If is another batch then its proper spooky.....
Diplomacy is going to be fun...
OK im getting all Alex Jones here
but Craig Murray has raised an interesting point about 2 of the images released yesterday
they appear to be the same location at Gatwick, with the same time stamp, but of the 2 different people, has the MI6 photoshop team been sloppy?
pics on the met police site too
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/
actually if thats a fixed angle camera then there are differences in the top left, also date stamp could be from later on, if plane landed at 3 , maybe border police take a snap of everyone disembarking, especially from russia, but then did they know/ suspect they were GRU?
coming out of Gatwick there are more than one (5 or 6 from memory) lanes as you finally exit from the security area into the public area of the terminal.
All are to all intents and purposes identical and entirely feasible they went through 2 channels simultaneously; a spot the difference expert* needs to see if there are any distinguishing aspects to the photos other than the men before I'm accepting your conspiracy on this.
* not an expert, a six year old can spot dozens I'm sure
So what will Maybot do?
I reckon she’s about to do s.o.d all and accept trade negotiations in return.
Rusixt
They look like different lanes, cameras are are at slightly different angles. If they are who police think they are then they'd have stayed fairly close to each other while never giving the impression that they were travelling together.
they appear to be the same location at Gatwick,
They're not the same shot, the angles are different. That's two photos from two different cameras, I'd wager.
Yes I assume different lanes. This RT interview is good.
I went for an explore on Salisbury Plain last Saturday which involved cycling through Amesbury. Following the bridleway through the new estate, suddenly came across police tape and a police woman sat on a foldable chair. Looked like she'd been there a while at 8.30am!
At the other end was the same set up, plus a police portacabin , 2 more officers and tape . Looks like the house is closed off for the long term!
Fortunately they helped me with the diversion as i got lost going round the houses!
A hundred years ago Britain had the influence to make the Russkies shit their pants and own up to stuff like this.
Fifty years ago Britain was mates with a power (the US) who had the influence to make the Russkies get a bit nervous and hang their operatives out to dry as ‘rogue agents’, or maybe part of an uncontrolled element of a satellite country’s secret service.
Now? Listen carefully and you can hear Putin and his mates rolling around on the floor nearly pissing themselves laughing at what ‘influence’ Britain is going to try to bring to bear. Even if the Orange Cretin came out in full Stormin Norman mode, all Putin would need to do is mention something about how he too enjoys water sports (wink wink) and would the Donald like to join him in analyzing his proficiency in water sports (wink wink) by viewing the video evidence and the support will disappear.
This isn’t about whether the russkies did it (of course they did), it is about power vs impotence. The Russkies will continue to tell blatant lies to our faces in front of others as it signals exactly how little influence we have. It’s a win-win for Vlad. Get away with it and look invincible. Get it totally pinned on him and......look invincible.
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1037649163767492610?s=19
We are being trolled by the embassy....
We have reached the point where we know MAD isn't going to happen. So people can get bolder about what they do.
Hmm yeah...I think dannyh has summed it up nicely.
Annie Machon, the lady in that interview is dodgy as ****. She is a 9/11 Truther and Princess Diana weirdo. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she turned out to be part of Vladislav Surkovs long game/propaganda/hybrid warfare against the west.
We have reached the point where we know MAD isn’t going to happen. So people can get bolder about what they do.
This. Everyone knows pressing the big red button isn't a possibility and people have realised they can start pushing boundaries and starting wars, even between two nuclear armed states without bringing about the end of the world.
Fifty years ago Britain was mates with a power (the US) who had the influence to make the Russkies get a bit nervous and hang their operatives out to dry as ‘rogue agents’, or maybe part of an uncontrolled element of a satellite country’s secret service
Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an ice pick
That made his ears burn
And his assassin was awarded the Hero of the Soviet Union
Giorgi Markov was assassinated on a London Street in broad daylight, in 1978. No one was charged, and the main suspect is reported to be living and traveling freely around Europe.
Hence the reason I said that it would be explained away as the actions of an ‘uncontrolled branch’ of a satellite country’s agency. Markov was ‘the work of the Bulgarians’ according to Moscow, if memory serves. As if the Bulgarians wouldn’t have sought Moscow’s sanction in those times - even if the original idea was theirs.
Trotsky got his ice pick in Mexico didn’t he? So not a lot of relevance to doing someone in on British soil.....
As someone somewhere else put it.
I bet Putin’s old FSB mates are seething with envy at what he’s managed to achieve with “a couple of prozzies and a fake Facebook ad or two”. Quite magnificent.
Now? Listen carefully and you can hear Putin and his mates rolling around on the floor nearly pissing themselves laughing at what ‘influence’ Britain is going to try to bring to bear.
Actually...we got sanctions re-imposed on Putins already puny and pathetic failing economy which is again hurting. Why do you think he's knocking off old aging spies decades after they defected in the first place? it's a desperate and pathetic action of a guy struggling to maintain power and popularity. We got other world powers and leaders to agree and back up our evidence and claims. We've frozen assets in the UK of certain Russian Oligarchs who will no doubt start to pressure Putin at some point, and we refused a visa to Abramovich. I'm not sure what people are expecting...for us to fire up the tanks and start rolling on towards Moscow? This is a game that will take time to play out. Russia will deny everything, we'll continue to try to locate the suspects...who will probably never now see the light of day as they will no doubt be bumped off themselves...if they haven't already. But in the meantime we have one more bargaining chip on the table for future negotiations, whatever they may be....that's international politics...building up those bargaining chips in a tit for tat list and trade at some future point when we have something properly important to negotiate.
Putin's little plan to look tough in front of his own people as his popularity was waining has backfired somewhat. OK, the world will not bring down the hammer on Russia over this, but it will probably prevent Russia from doing this again. We're not the only country harbouring ex-russian Cold War spies, so other countries are definitely standing up and taking notice.
We have no option but to pursue the course of action we are....following the rule of law, bringing in our allies. No one incident will change much on its own, but people have taken note...Putin is on the naughty step.
Putin has nothing on the UK. No power to bring to bear. He'll continue the tough talk, but its all a charade...testing our air defences with his archaic and knackered Cold War aircraft, talking tough in the media, purely for the benefit of his own people than anyone in the international community, but so what. We don't use his gas or oil, so no reliance there. However his corrupt and rich cronies do like the UK and the benefits we've allowed them over the years, so by hitting them we will get to Putin, start to undermine him in his own country, start to help destabilise him in his current shakey position. However some of our European allies, especially the Germans, are heavily reliant on Russian energy so this will certainly test their mettle if Putin decides to try to play hard ball with our supporting allies....but he risks losing valuable income he desperately needs from those nations so he'll probably do nothing.
I anticipate things will start to quieten down now for some time.
I tend to agree with wobbliscott, we certainly have a better international standing than Russia, however I do think we need to increase funding to the Royal Navy to retain some of our international clout. We are an island nation that relies hugely on free trade, as such I think there is some merit to Dannys argument that we have lost some clout. We have - and it centres around the hollowing out of the Navy.
testing our air defences with his archaic and knackered Cold War aircraft, talking tough in the media,
That underestimates their capability, the Tu-160s are all being upgraded or have been. You don't need stealth if you have big fast bombers with huge standoff missiles.
If you look at the comments coming out the MOD and various wargames, right now - it's not so clear cut - some seem to think that Nato would get a good kicking if Russia decided to push into the Baltics. There have been arguments made the Russian army both outgun and outrange us on the ground.
why would Putin not do it again ?
Managed it with spy in London a few years ago .
we’ll continue to try to locate the suspects…who will probably never now see the light of day as they will no doubt be bumped off themselves…if they haven’t already
The last one (who delivered the polonium) has been made up into the Russian parliament. Then again, his effort was a bit more successful
for us to fire up the tanks and start rolling on towards Moscow?
Well, the lessons of history show that neither the massed armies of Napoleon or Hitler managed to succeed in invading Russia, although both attempted it in winter, which sopports the old adage ‘those who forget the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them’.
The last one (who delivered the polonium) has been made up into the Russian parliament.
I Wonder Why
Article 98
-
Deputies to the Federation Council and deputies to the State Duma shall possess immunity throughout their term in office. A deputy may not be detained, arrested, searched except when detained in the act of perpetrating a crime, and may not be subject to personal search except when such search shall be authorized by law to ensure the safety of other people.
Actually…we got sanctions re-imposed on Putins already puny and pathetic failing economy which is again hurting
Yeah, yeah right.
Failing? define failing. Stagnating more like.
We got sanctions n evreyfink...
Plenty of Russians doing very well out of thier current economic situation.
Frankly both Countries are willy waving to keep the likes of Mr n Mrs Whailing Daily occupied whilst more important issues are slowly sucking them under,