As a couple of other folk have mentioned, it's worth considering the Yaktraks/micro spike type of walking assist. They're a really useful addition to a winter walking bag, effective in any situation that the inexperienced, relatively careful and sensible walker is likely to encounter in your lighter boots. I would be carrying a pair of these far more often in the winter in the Highlands than I do my full crampons. The axe is always there for the rare occasions that I want it for extra safety but the wee spikes are very good indeed on any walk up an icy path, on part thawed and re-frozen snow and might get used again anytime local conditions are a bit iffy and you need to get to the shops...
If you find yourself looking up at the steep approach to a peak where you might need full crampons in the Highland winter, you should be asking yourself if you have the skills and experience to be up there at all. Yes, they make being up there and still on your feet a lot safer if you know what you're doing. However, in a fall it's the opposite, a pair of crampons are quite likely to make the situation very much worse, rather than better. So, I would be advocating a proper lesson in their use, rather than going for a wee slide on a roadside snow patch and then setting off up a big hill.
You can only learn so much from past incidents. In reality the only hard and fast rule is to make decisions that give you the best chance of getting out in one piece. Sometimes that might mean digging in. Sometimes walking out. It depends on your individual abilities and the situation your find yourself in.
<br />this of course is the best advice
My point simply was if it looks like you are going to overnight - and god forbid you do - then spending the last bits of your energy might be better on digging in than trying to get further and ending up spending the night on the sur5face.
I just want to say these sort of discussions are good.; the more knowledge and info we have the better decisions we will make.
So even tho most seem not to agree with me its given me food for thought. ta
I overnighted in a snow hole once with a school friend, it was a planned trip of course (though the person whose idea it was managed to find an excuse not to come!), we had to be just off the lee side of the summit as it was the only place the snow was deep enough, it took all afternoon to dig and we had a pretty miserable night, woke with a bit of a headache to find the entrance completely sealed up (spindrift). Got up, had some tepid trangia porridge the next morning and marched down the hill pretty quick to find somewhere a bit drier and warmer!
I don't think the OP needs to be concerning themselves with snow holes.
So even tho most seem not to agree with me
I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, there are specific situations when digging a snow hole might be a good choice. It's just not something to give as general advice.
If you’re just going for a bimble then all you need is a paper map for backup, spare set of warm layers (hat, gloves, fleece), spare food and a head torch.
The more (unnecessary kit) you take the slower you’ll be, and can often be more a hindrance than a help.
-About £45
About £12
Handy, cheap, shows your position pretty much instantly.
matt_outandaboutFull Member<br />So should the OP be carrying a shovel with him?<br />Nah.
A JCB?
@houns, https://lockwoods.com/ are not far from you and are a "proper outdoor shop", could be worth a visit if you want to buy kit in person.
A JCB?
Only if the curry house from the night before backfires and there is need to bury some toxic waste well.
What happens if you get it wrong with an ice axe...
(43:16 still makes me wince).
Attempting to dig a snow hole without the knowledge and means to dig one is pretty pointless - you could expend a lot of energy in a fairly fruitless exercise which could have been better used to get down off the hill.
GPS and the like makes navigation far easier - I carry my phone with OS Maps installed, a separate handheld GPS with the route loaded and finally a paper map + compass. Most incidents are due to folks getting lost or over-estimating their capabilities - the estimated route times on Walk Highlands for example are extremely pessimistic. If you don’t know an area, following a proven route where you can follow a track, let people know where you’re going/ timing etc. is far better than hiking off into unfamiliar territory with only a vague idea of where you are going.
Microspikes etc are great - they allow you to traverse terrain safely sometimes impossible in regular footwear. The lack of front points make them unsuitable for steeper, more technical terrain, but less likely to trip yourself up. A lightweight boot with spikes is way better than a heavier boot without crampons IMO. Poorly fitting crampons can be a liability - they can shake loose/trip you up.
Something briefly touched on it getting your clothing right - wearing too much, sweating-through your layers can be pretty dangerous when it’s cold and windy, accelerating the chances of hypothermia. Stopping to remove layers can seem counterproductive, as is checking to make sure you’re not getting too sweaty. Stripping off to change your baselayer top may seem nuts, but can be a big psychological boost. Puffy jackets are great when stopped or for layering up for a descent, but often less suited to Scottish winter conditions.
Finally, getting to know what the expected weather conditions are going to be like - a benign day at the bottom can be very different from the top with high winds and limited visibility. Turning around to retrace a familiar, outbound round is often safer than pressing on into the unknown.
I wouldn’t necessarily limit yourself to staying below the snow line if following a known route - there’s plenty of relatively safe routes when conditions are good. Problems often occur when people attempt routes when pressed for time and facing inclement weather.
What happens if you get it wrong with an ice axe…
I remember watching that as a kid. There's a written account of it in a book called 'The Black Cloud' by IDS Thompson who also wrote the Jock Nimlin biography 'May the Fire Always be Lit.'
I did once smash a finger on a rock while practicing an ice axe descent 😀 It wasn't bad but blood leaves a massive trail on snow...
I've dug a lot of snowholes, mostly for training purposes. This has mostly been in Alpine conditions, with a group to work on it and everyone has shovels. Even so, it takes a long time (like, an hour or more) to produce a decent 2-person shelter. Solo, in Scottish conditions, with an ice axe? Good luck.
You can pass an acceptable night in one if it's well built and you have a decent mat, sleeping bag and bivvy bag. Otherwise, it's going to be a very unpleasant experience.
In the Alps, everyone does generally have a shovel as you're carrying it as part of your avalanche safety kit when ski-touring / splitboarding or doing some more "engaged" snowshoeing. In Scottish conditions, not so much...
However, if you can't walk out because you're injured, dealing with another casualty or hopelessly lost then yes, definitely, have a crack at it. Just getting yourself out of the wind will make a big difference in a life or death situation.
Years ago I dislocated and broke my shoulder hitting a tree in the Canadian Rockies, in January, at dusk at -20C. I was in a group of 5 all ski touring with all the gear. We had an Inreach and so pretty quickly had contact with MR. I was pretty out of it with pain and all I wanted to do was curl up into a ball however MR told the group that every m closer I got to the road was a m less they had to come in. So I shuffled slowly in the dark for hours chivvied on by my friends until we met up with MR who gave me drugs and put me in a sled.
Every situation is different but "dig a snow cave and we'll come find you in the morning" wasn't the outcome even with a big group and a 2m snowpack...
Oh and +1 on guidebooks being occasionally optimistic. One such book goes by the Calgary description "The book of lies" based on both descriptions and time estimates.
There's some shocking advice being given on here. I really can't believe TJ is trying to debate Winter safety with Spin. TJ, do you know how much of his time this dude spends out in the winter mountains?
The idea that the standard advice should be that a cold exhausted group should stop and then stand around freezing their tits off whilst one person at a time digs a snowhole is ludicrous.
I've slept in a snowhole. I've built a few completely weathertight igloos, I've dug quite a few snowholes and the idea that I might choose them and anything but last resort is madness.
Snow soft and take a boot well? Carry on going up. Hit hardpacked ice – stop going up.
And this....🥵🤔👿
What happens if you are coming down a different way
What if you get lost?
What happens when the temperature adiabatic lapse rates as you ascend and gradually turns soft into hard pack? After robotically plodding up the hill for thirty minutes you realise that kicking steps is no longer an option. Turn around for a look and find yourself looking down at a smooth, fast, slippery expanse of snow that might take a dent if you really focussed half your bodyweight on kicking it, but if you fell it would remain completely flat and unyielding as you hurtled down
What if it just cools down during the day and the exact same " soft and takes a boot well" snow is now "hardpacked ice"?
Don't get me wrong, we've all bimbled up a snowy hill in winter without consequence at one time or another, but to give this option as solicited advice is truly misguided
There’s some shocking advice being given on here. I really can’t believe TJ is trying to debate Winter safety with Spin. TJ, do you know how much of his time this dude spends out in the winter mountains?
Interesting discussion I thought and I did not argue with him at all. I accepted his points and learnt more
Jeepers dude. Why so angry? We can all learn from this. including me. My point was a simple one based on advice I have been given in the past and based on reports from FAI. what you claim I said is not what I did
Its all about sharing experience and learning
Soz, didn't mean to be.
It's a long story.
I actually came in to delete my post, but was too slow.
I'm getting better, but every now and then one slips out.
Apology reiterated.
NO worries dude crap advice needs to be called out. Seems like what I was told decades ago is not what is taught now
Back to the idea of things to bring and hopefully not use, I was considering chucking one of those SOL Escape Bivvy bags in my camelbak on the sub-zero night rides 'just in case'. If it doubled up as a v.lightweight bivvy for single night bikepacking under a hedge so much the better.
Any real world experience?
e.g. https://valleyandpeak.co.uk/products/sol-escape-bivvy
So for my bimble around the hills I will need the following:
B1/2/3 boots
Crampons
Straight shaft walking axe
Blizzard bag
Winter skills course
Umbrella
Someone who knows where you are and when you should be back. And has an idea of late back procedure.
Map and compass in addition to any electronic nav.
Walkhighlands app.
Headtorch and batteries.
Waterproof bag liner.
Bivvy bag and hand warmer of some kind for heat.
Good baselayers.
A few thin fleeces.
A few pairs of gloves and a hat that actually comes down over ears and nape of neck, and a couple of buffs.
Goggles.
Good waterproofs and boots.
More food than i think needed. And some spare food.
Sunscreen.
Boots, waterproof jacket and trousers etc.
Kendal mint cake
Ice spikes
Trekking poles
Shovel
Rights to a book deal
Flares (of the trouser and distress signal variety)
A JCB
Inreach/spot tracker
Kristin Harila
Nirmal Purja
A team of Sherpas
Oxygen and masks
Address of nearest curry house
Right, have I missed owt?
Ah sod it, cheaper to stay in the pub.
My main must haves for Scotland (apart from what you'd normally take hill walking in England in winter) is gaiters for the wet ground are more or less essential and spare dry, warm gloves and hat in case you drop one, get soaked or blown away.
Extra layer and probably a bothy bag/shelter are more or less standard winter kit wherever you go.
I would encourage you to think about getting some 10 point crampons and a lightweight axe and to venture onto some snow that is not steep purely for a bit of adventure, it's good to try it and it expands the range of places you consider going and exploring. Scottish mountains are great so go prepared but do go.
As for a shovel, only take one if you're planning to do a large poo. Generally I only carry one ski touring when there is a very small chance of needing to dig someone out of an avalanche.
Any real world experience?
I've never used one of those sol bags but it isn't much lighter than an alpkit bivi bag, which are also cheaper and probably better for actual bivi duties.
Neither would be very easy to get a casualty in though I reckon, I dunno, could be wrong. I guess you could slit it open with the Gerber multi tool that is a must carry in off tarmac situations 🤓
Houns-
I'm out in the hills a couple of days a week as part of my job. (Lucky me!)
I do plenty of summits in winter but don't usually carry an axe or crampons. I tend to hit lower, easier hikes & am happy to turn back.
I carry:
OS Map. GPS. Compass. Knife or Leatherman . 1st Aid Kit. Orange Survival Bag. Emergency rations that don't freeze. Waterproof smartphone that lasts a week.
Ex Army Goretex Jacket & Trousers. Extra fleece. Gloves x2 . Goggles.
I wear:
Altberg Army Boots
Gaiters
Merino Socks
Quick drying trousers
Base layer\thin fleece
Buffalo Jacket or Shirt
All my gear is cheap except the Buffalo stuff but you can get ex-army "softies" that do the same job for a fraction of the price.
@chaos - I've used a SOL Escape for an Autumn "bivvy". In fact I only stopped for a few hours in the middle of doing the Cairngorms Loop. With a mat below it, I just crawled in wearing my riding gear and insulated jacket. I was soon asleep and was only woken by a bright moon rising above the trees. Given that the air temperature was hovering around 5C, I think it did pretty well. It does accompany me on some "wilder" day expeditions too. In fact I already have a couple in mind for this year where it'll be in my kilt.
In fact I already have a couple in mind for this year where it’ll be in my kilt
You wear a kilt? Hardcore! 👍
Now, that's either AI Autocorrect or something subconscious 😂
Cheers for replies on Sol Escape bivvy. I do have one of the Naturehike CloudUps for actual camping/bikepacking so this really would be just emergency use and as light as poss to throw in with the 1st aid basics.
not that we get things too extreme down here on the south coast but even so with an extended mechanical / unfortunate tumble in high wind chill frosty evenings, people can get very cold very rapidly and there's not always a handy pub 5 mins walk away.
Whilst not inexperienced in the hills, I am a relative novice in full winter conditions. Last winter I purchased my first pair of crampons and proceeded to carry them up umpteen Munro's where they were not necessary. Last weekend they came into their own and I wouldn't have summited without them, totally justified the previous trips where they might have been of use.
Shorts, t-shirts and chainsaw kit is what I should’ve brought
Toasty warm...
