Off up north soon, shall be doing some bimbling around the hills if weather is on my side. I’m no mountaineer, I’m fully aware of my (lack of) abilities, fitness and have no intention of putting myself in any position to have to call out mountain rescue.
However, accidents can happen and weather can change suddenly, I’d rather look at/carry my unused kit than look for it when I need it, so I’m after some spikes for my boots to put on if I come across any ice and maybe even an ice axe? Obviously first aid/clothes/water/shelter/whistle/maps etc go without saying, anything else you can suggest?
Hopefully I won’t need, I’ll venture up to snow lines and will turn back, so not looking to buy the best kit, proper basic do the job stuff is what I’m after.
What boots have you got? (B1/B2/B3)? as that will determine what crampons will fit. Straight shaft walking axe but it will need some practice/ instruction. Have you got a decent outdoor shop near you so you can get all this sorted properly and not via the internet?
Blizzard bag, I suppose.
I don't think you should view crampons and axe as things you hopefully won't use. Means you'll be tempted to not practise/familiarise yourself with their use.
Boots are fairly flexible so B1. Saying I hopefully won’t use them as unless the path is a frozen stream I don’t intend to get up onto the snow.
Im in the West Midlands , so no, no outdoor shops near apart from the chains. Happy to buy in Scotland before use.
My advice is to be really clear about what you want to do and stick to it. You say maybe an ice axe but later you say you'll turn back at the snowline. If you haven't used an axe before, don’t buy one for a trip, all it will do is give a false sense of security and potentially lead you into riskier situations. If you want to do stuff that requires an axe then you should take the time to learn how to use it (and crampons, because the two go together) properly. That doesn't need to be a formal course and doesn’t need a lot of time but it's not just a case of buying them and going.
Also,'snowline' doesn’t really have much meaning in Scotland. Right now, the snowline is sea level but lots of it is soft and there are plenty of hills you could walk up in the snow without specialised equipment. The thing you need to be wary of is hard snow that can cause a slip not snow in general.
If you just want something to make icy paths easier then microspikes plus poles is a good combo.
When and where?
A winter skills course would be greatly useful especially if you're heading into the Scottish hills alone. Great having kit, but if you're not sure how to deploy them or reorientate yourself you could find yourself in a bit of bother.
All fair comments, and agree a winter skills course would be great.
@scotroutes Kinlochewe in a couple of weeks, (I will be in contact with the Scottish contingent :salute:)
The way things are looking right now, the only ice will be in your GnT.
Heh, yeah think I’ll need an umbrella, not poles/axe
and agree a winter skills course would be great.
Winter skills courses are great if you want to go place where crampons and axe are necessary. If you just want to bimble around and are (genuinely) prepared to turn back then there's no need. Assuming youve got the other skills, mainly navigation.
Crampons and an axe allows you to climb higher - but you need the skills to use them. I have done loads of winter summits without either - its just about risk assessment. Snow soft and take a boot well? Carry on going up. Hit hardpacked ice - stop going up. You also need to check slope stability ie will the top layer slide off.
If you get an axe and crampons then first time out with them find a slope that is a safe fall and practise using them
If you want an axe I have a spare very old school walking axe you can have ( ie not a climbing axe but one that you can use for fall arrest) maybe even a spare set of crampons depending on boot size ( Julies old kit)
Please don't buy the gear without getting some good instruction and practice in using it. My first and hopefully only ice axe self arrest was feet first on my stomach, and that was terrifying. My mate has fallen head first on his back and self arrested ... Sounds like your going to stick to lower/easier ground do that with an experienced buddy and practice falling it's fun...sort of.
As others are saying, knowledge and practice are as important, if not more, than the kit.
Secondly, can you borrow kit? Or buy cheaply second hand - all our axes are second hand, bought locally, as are my crampons (now a decade old)...
More generally on kit for winter walks, and I know you know this in your job, but....:
- someone who knows where you are and when you should be back. And has an idea of late back procedure.
- map and compass in addition to any electronic nav. Walkhighlands app is superb - and free to free subscribers, for navigation and printing off routes.
- headtorch and batteries
- waterproof bag liner - bin bags are fine.
- bivvy bag and hand warmer of some kind for heat.
- good baselayers - anything you have wicking and warm. I tend to carry a spare top half baselayer, useful as another layer or on occasion if you get soaked.
- a few thin fleeces are often better than big puffy layers IME, particularly when damp.
- a few pairs of gloves and a hat that actually comes down over ears and nape of neck, and a couple of buffs.
- goggles - are fabby on really windy, icy, horrid days to allow you to still see.
- good waterproofs and boots.
- more food than you think needed. And some spare food.
- sunscreen, for that bluebird, snowy, damn I am burnt to a crisp day which happens once a winter...
- boots, waterproof jacket and trousers etc. I find a windproof is superb - keeps wind off but not as sweaty as my waterproofs.
Meall a' Ghiubhais and Beinn a'Chearcaill are two good lower hills near Kinlochewe. Great views from both.
I carry enough kit so I believe I would survive a night out on the hills - so extra warm stuff and a bivvy bag of some sort
Ever dug a snow hole? I did once for practice and its amazing how much energy it takes - so if you are in trouble stop and dig the snow hole before you are exhausted
But the key thing is - know your limits and be prepared to abandon your route and head down. I think I have actually made the summit on half my winter walks
If you're passing this way then I can lend you an ice axe - maybe even find some neve to practice on.
If you are strict enough with yourself then some micro-spikes might be sufficient - especially as you're not sure if your boots really are B1 rated.
After that it's more survival/comfort you want to think about, so Matt's list should be used as a base (though I generally go with a bit less).
Thanks all, off out for day now so won’t be able to reply further
I was taught that the ice axe comes before crampons, the former provides stability on looser snow and saves you when you fall whereas the latter allows you to get into serious trouble when it's icier and if you slip there's no stopping you. Though it's not often I'd take just one and not the other.
Probably better to just avoid the snow if it's a one-off.
I was taught that as well thecaptain
Boots are fairly flexible so B1
Might be B0 then so not for crampon use?. There might be some B0 options but I'm not sure what they are.
Mrs TJs crampons were the type with a flexible plate rather than a hinge - they worked fine for walking with flexible boots but useless for toe pointing up steep slopes
Kendal mint cake.
so if you are in trouble stop and dig the snow hole before you are exhausted
Sorry TJ but I don't think this is great advice or it's only good advice with a bunch of caveats.
The first one is that it's almost always better to keep moving if you can. Stopping for the night is always going to be grim and only worth considering if you are physically unable to move or if you are so lost/out of your depth that further movement could be dangerous. Having made that decision, the chances of you being near an appropriate site for a snow hole are pretty slim, especially in today's leaner winters. Also, digging a functioning snowhole with an axe is often really difficult.
So by all means try digging a snowhole if you happen to be immobile near an appropriate site but otherwise, just keep moving.
I'd second some ice spikes for your boots - there was a thread on here for running ones that's worth a search for. Trekking poles would also be useful.
As others have said an axe and crampons are not much use if you don't know how to use them. A willingness to turn back is the most important thing you could pack.
spin - I took that as a lesson from years ago where a group got lost on the hills in winter - tried to walk out until exhausted and then did not have enough energy left to dig snow holes and folk died. If they had stopped earlier they could have dug into the snow and survived
for sure its better to keep going if you have the chance to make it out but if you keep on going until exhausted then you do not have the energy left to dig a snow hole
the time I did one for practice was at the end of a day out and it took the last vestiges of my strength to do it. Its suprised me how much energy it took to dig it
Again a balanced decision depending on circumstances / conditions / distance from road / knowing where you are etc
I took that as a lesson from years ago where a group got lost on the hills in winter – tried to walk out until exhausted and then did not have enough energy left to dig snow holes and folk died. If they had stopped earlier they could have dug into the snow and survived
Lots of maybes there. An actual snow hole is difficult and time consuming to build and takes a lot of time even if you have an appropriate site. They're usually a non starter from an emergency shelter standpoint.
For me, a snowhole as an emergency shelter is a bit Bear Grylls. Worth bearing in mind but lots of other things to try first and unlikely to be a practical option in reality.
IIRC that was the FAI conclusion. Pre internet / gps / mobile phone days so maybe that changes the balance.? I'll see if I can find the incident
I can think of other incidents where folk were saved by snowholes
Might be B0 then so not for crampon use?. There might be some B0 options but I’m not sure what they are.
You can get strap on crampons / micro-spikes for trainers / flip flops.
You'll be fine as long as you don't want to front point, which covers most gentle ground / paths. Very rare you need to front point outside of winter climbing. If your path has a steep iced step section and you've never front pointed before, best turn back or find a way round rather than find out the hard way your crampons can't cope and break an ankle.
I can think of other incidents where folk were saved by snowholes
In the UK? That they'd built themselves in an emergency scenario, without a shovel? I'd be interested to hear about them because I can't think of any and all the advice I've seen is to try if you like but don't expect it to keep you warm by anything other than exertion.
I'm not saying it's never going to be a thing but the idea of stopping for the night and digging a snow hole is really unrealistic. So unrealistic that its not something to be advising people to do.
In Scotland yes.
there was a chap overnighted in one - he got lost or something, built a snowhole, was reported missing, MR did not find him that night. He walked out the following day unharmed
A properly built snowhole will allow you to be out of the wind and at a higher temp than being in a bivvy on the surface
We need folk like @mattoutandabout or @scotroutes who know more about this stuff I*wonder if the paradigm has altered since mobile phones and GPS
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12517883.lost-hunter-survived-30c-winds-by-digging-snow-hole/
When conditions are "just so" I've carried a shovel. After a bit of practice with the shovel, the thought of trying to dig a snow hole with an ice axe would have me soldiering on. Might work in a group environment I guess.
I'd rather be in a bothy bag with a few air activated heat pad/hand warmers than trying to dig a snowhole. Lightweight to carry.
I'd rather be in the local curry house having known my limits!
https://www.terra-nova.co.uk/products/bothy-bags/
A properly built snowhole will allow you to be out of the wind and at a higher temp than being in a bivvy on the surface
Yes, but the chances of you making such a thing in an emergency scenario are really, really small.
You talk about it being something that was advised but it never really has been other than in some very specific circumstances. If anything has changed its not mobiles etc, it's less snowy winters that make it even less realistic.
Don't assume that you don't need a walking axe if you are not going high - it's more a question of how steep a snow-covered slope is. My biggest fall was descending Ben More and was caused by the soft but deep melting snow lower down which didn't support my weight. Any fall on a snowy-slope can lead to you traveling a considerable distance. I was able to arrest my fall with my axe relatively quickly, but still ended up with broken ribs after bouncing off some rocks.
The other thing they don't tell you in the books is that when your jacket fills up with snow as you slide it gets very cold!
+1 on a snowhole being a distraction from crawling your damn own way off the cold heights and off to warmth somewhere.
Curry house sounds good (-:
@houns, happy to lend a walking axe or two, I'm just down the road from you, I think, in Kingswinford. Have also got b1 walking crampons (if your boots have got the heel cup) and a 2 or 4 person bothy bag you can borrow too. Drop me a DM if you want.
I took that as a lesson from years ago where a group got lost on the hills in winter – tried to walk out until exhausted and then did not have enough energy left to dig snow holes and folk died. If they had stopped earlier they could have dug into the snow and survived
I vaguely recall reading about an incident where a climber broke both his legs but crawled down a glacier for several days and survived, then became a best-selling author. I took that as a lesson that if I fall off a small ice cliff and shatter my lower limbs, the best course of action is to drag myself slowly to safety...
You can only learn so much from past incidents. In reality the only hard and fast rule is to make decisions that give you the best chance of getting out in one piece. Sometimes that might mean digging in. Sometimes walking out. It depends on your individual abilities and the situation your find yourself in. If that situation is in a curry house with a pile of popadoms and impending main course, so much the better.
Whether you know how to use it or not*, having an axe is useful just to prevent a lecture from some mountain busybody who thinks it's their job to police the mountain 😉
*Do learn how to use it though.
In my experience (only a few times ) digging snowcave (basically igloo in snow) will get you wet, no matter if wearing Gore-Tex or not. Simple snowhole (burrow into a snowbank) is easier but not nearly as warm as proper cave.
So should the OP be carrying a shovel with him?
Whether you know how to use it or not*, having an axe is useful just to prevent a lecture from some mountain busybody who thinks it’s their job to police the mountain
A fair point. I needed it a couple of years ago as we set of up the Aonach Eagach when a fellow hillwalker tried to put he fear of god into one of my (already nervous) lads. Closest I have ever come to telling someone to f*ck off on the hill...
So should the OP be carrying a shovel with him?
Nah.
