About 30% by area are SSSI, so a fair chunk
Do you get pissed off when raptors are killed (under licence) at airports? how about chicken farms?Are they not both businesses as well?
Crank. How many airports have Hen Harriers flying about?
Couldn't give a flying chickenshit about chicken farms.
Do you not actually care a jot about declining species? (which have very little impact on business)
Do people only think about ££'ss FFS
Boils down to this really...
[url= https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8752/28623638372_6a733613d0_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c5.staticflickr.com/9/8752/28623638372_6a733613d0_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/KBnCsq ]Native-American-quote-on-Money[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/jimmygrainger/ ]jimmyg352[/url], on Flickr
Do you not actually care a jot about declining species?
Yes
However not all raptors are declining, or for that matter endangered, species
Not all declining, or endangered, species are raptors either - although sometimes they do get eaten by them.
Slowoldgit - I've not mentioned raptors, don't think anyone would try and say its not happening, as your like link elucidates. Was more offering a counterpoint to the grouse moor = bad land management narrative. It provides good habitats for a range of ground nesting birds and waders, could be better with less burning, less drainage ang greater apex veg diversity but its a lot better than the sheep grazing that it would have been without the sporting estates of yore.
Need to be a bit careful but I advise a major infrastructure co on construction of assets including substations for windfarms often in peat environments and a good percentage of the landowners have a genuine interest (not exclusively financial) in preserving the habitat.
Gerrrofff moi laaaaaand 😆
However not all raptors are declining, or for that matter endangered, speciesNot all declining, or endangered, species are raptors either - although sometimes they do get eaten by them.
Ok, next question, are game bird numbers decreasing?
[i]So, yes, RSPB are officially neutral on the issue[/i]
Neutral on the issue of shooting, not on the impacts of grouse moor management. Which is what was being discussed.
[i]Maybe you'll even look at that photo above and tell me which side of the road you think has the greatest biodiversity? Go on Dave, if you want to debate the issues, I'm more than happy to do that.[/i]
The moorland is likely to be the richer and yet is unlikely to support nesting apex predators such as Hen Harriers. Why would that be from such a rich and biodiverse habitat? Is the other side of the road former moorland or in-bye grassland? It's not overly clear from your photo.
If we're comparing grouse managed moorland with other moorland areas then the issue is less clear as to which has the greater biodiversity.
BTW. Given your previous employment (you trained as a keeper no?) are you a member of the National Gamekeepers Organisation? BASC? GWT?
Just so we know if you're "[i]an impartial source of information[/i]"
Stabiliser - I think theres a lot of interesting point regards wind farms.
Ultimately, much as the 'rewilding' idea has been discussed has, nobody (least of all Monbiot) has come up with a sustainable funding option for upland areas that begins to offset their management costs (and if you read into the actual 'rewilding' plans that are anything but 'wild' instead relying very much on ongoing management, all of which costs money)
That means that of the practical choices that pay the bills, its either shooting , sheep, trees or wind.
none are a perfect answer
The moorland is likely to be the richer and yet is unlikely to support nesting apex predators such as Hen Harriers. Why would that be from such a rich and biodiverse habitat?
possibly because HH require a complex matrix of both heather and white ground, due to the importance of voles in their diet. Evidence at Langholm and other locations points strongly towards this complex maxrix being needed and is often not present on English moors
Is the other side of the road former moorland or in-bye grassland? It's not overly clear from your photo.
long overgrazed moorland
If we're comparing grouse managed moorland with other moorland areas then the issue is less clear as to which has the greater biodiversity.https://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/grant_mallord_stephen_thompson_2012_tcm9-318973.pdf
indeed, the science is far from settled - though its funny that HH aren't doing any better on none grouse moorland than keepered land, while Merlin are absolutely thriving on keepered moors
BTW. Given your previous employment (you trained as a keeper no?) are you a member of the National Gamekeepers Organisation? BASC? GWT?
Longstanding BASC Member, though to the best of my knowledge BASC have never employed any convicted animal rights extremists
[i]while Merlin are absolutely thriving on keepered moors[/i]
Especially when Hen Harrier, Peregrine and Short Eared Owl, all species that predate grouse chicks, aren't.
[i]though its funny that HH aren't doing any better on none grouse moorland than keeper land[/i]
"Anderson et al (2009) concluded that moorland management for red grouse was beneficial for hen harrier productivity. However, in 2008, there were records of only 5 successful hen harrier nests across the UK extent of driven grouse moors, yet estimates based on habitat area indicted that there should have been almost 500 pairs (Redpath et al. 2010)."
They should be doing better on managed moorland but aren't
"The absence of breeding hen harriers from extensive areas of grouse moors suggest that some, perhaps many, grouse moor managers will not tolerate any breeding hen harriers on their land (Redpath et al. 2010). Indeed, once hen harriers are removed from an area, minimal effort may be required to prevent further nesting attempts, for example by burning out suitable heather for nesting and disturbance of any birds attempting to nest."
Which brings us back to that pole trap
and the Derbyshire National Trust land
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-36141199
Or why so many satellite tagged birds disappear on grouse moors?
Anyone would think that healthy populations of raptors aren't encouraged as part of the biodiversity of these moors.
"Hen Harriers are not the only raptor species that suffer on grouse moors - my own research on Peregrine Falcon breeding success in the uplands of England showed that because of persecution, Peregrine Falcon pairs nesting on grouse moors fledge only half the number of chicks of those which nest away from this kind of habitat (Amar et al. 2012). This work suggested that persecution was widespread on grouse moors in almost all areas of England, findings that run counter to the claim that raptor persecution is only occurring on few 'rogue' estates. Other research has highlighted similar problems for Golden Eagles on the grouse moors of Scotland (Whitfield et al. 2004)." - http://www.bou.org.uk/hen-harriers-going-going/
It looks like something has to be done to solve this.
Driven moorland with vicarious licencing and grants received dependant on maintaining raptor numbers?
A move to walked up shooting with lower bag numbers? and healthier raptor populations.
You appear to be trying to demonstrate that illegal persecution takes place
I don't recall anyone denying it.
Personally, I don't support illegal persecution for one minute, because I believe that there is a critical mix of habitat that makes ground attractive or unattractive to HH, to quote the JNCC report:
[i]Distribution models found that increasing areas of natural grassland (excluding grasslands which are subject to fertilization or re-seeding) are associated with an increased probability of occupancy by hen harriers, although there is a very marked peak when approximately 25% of a square is natural grassland. This may reflect the fact that, although it is not a preferred nesting habitat, rough grassland may be positively associated with the abundance of voles and meadow pipits Anthis pratensis, important prey species for hen harriers (Arroyo et al 2009, 2006, Amar & Redpath 2005, Amar 2001).
The decline of Orkney’s hen harriers has been related to the detrimental effects, on vole numbers, of overgrazing of rough grassland by sheep (Amar & Redpath 2005). Amar et al (2008) summarised much of the earlier work and confirmed the link between food limitation, preferred hunting habitat and breeding performance. Breeding attempts are more successful when nesting areas are surrounded by higher proportions of rough grass. Amar et al (2010) found that hen harrier productivity on Orkney over 33 years was negatively correlated with sheep abundance; declines in the hen harrier population were associated with a doubling in sheep numbers and the hen harrier population recovered as sheep numbers fell. On Mull, it has been shown that harriers avoided managed grassland with heavy sheep grazing andthat the removal of sheep stock was followed by the occupation of several new sites (Haworth & Fielding 2002)[/i]
Essentially, (and in support of personal discussions with Langholm project staff some years ago) whatever the heather situation, if your surrounding habitat doesn't carry a significant amount of rough grass (white ground as it's often called) then HH won't nest there. so if you want to deter HH to protect your grouse (or indeed if you wanted to promote them) then your key methods are managing surrounding grazing densities to affect rough grass cover, rather than having to break the law, and for what it's worth, I think that this has been a far more important factor in limiting HH populations in England on a macro scale than persecution, as it begins to explain why they are still not thriving in areas with little or no shooting, we simply don't have the mix of different heather structures mixed with white ground that they need to both nest and feed. (Nest in the heather, feed in the grass)
The simple answer is to make grouse shooting require a license - and remove the licence using a civil standard of proof where there is mismanagement and raptor persecution.
There is no doubt at all that illegal killing of raptors on grouse moors and other sporting estates is common and that this has a significant effect on populations.
As for landownership and usage - yes the land still needs to provide a living. It doesn't have to be intensive sheep grazing as the only alternative. Other models exist and even grouse moors can be managed without breaking the law
I have rarely met someone from the countryside who is against field sports.
Can we file this shit under the same nonsense that suggests all hours grocery stores are run by people from south Asia, and black people run faster?
(as Nickc takes off and nukes the thread from orbit)
Don't listen to Chris Packham, he advocates eradicating domestic cats too. He's inhuman.
Can we file this shit under the same nonsense that suggests all hours grocery stores are run by people from south Asia, and black people run faster?
You have used the word all, I used the wrod rarely.
Evidence would suggest the shop ownership and athletic prowess are largely true also btw.
Anyway, any game keepers found persecuting birds of prey should be prosecuted. The idea of an estate licence which could be revoked is a good one.
The point of the post Jamba, was to get you to think about your in-built prejudices assumptions and biases (that we all have). Perhaps (just maybe...) you might not have spent time with folk from the country side who don't share the view that wild animals need to be killed, trapped, culled or shot for sport?
Don't listen to Chris Packham, he advocates eradicating domestic cats too. He's inhuman.
Or maybe he is passionate about preserving native species and has performed a lot of research to find out that domestic cats are bloody good at killing them?
My sisters cats certainly seem very adept, oh but of course, thats just "nature" 😉
how about chicken farms?
You do spout some utter drivel 😆
You do spout some utter drivel
Right... Apart from the fact that it's known that free range chicken farms have been given NE licences to kill buzzards due to hen losses.
So it seems that 'persecution' of raptors in the name of commercial interests is acceptable sometimes
Which side of this road do you think has greatest biodiversity? The grouse moor or the grazing?
Looks about even at "very little" apiece. Where are the trees?
ninfan I regulate "free range" chicken farms as part of my job, I have four i visit twice a year and none suffer any predation from hawks. So where you come up with this stuff is anyones guess.
As for airports I believe they are far more likely to uses hawks as a deterrent that go round trapping them.
ninfan I regulate "free range" chicken farms as part of my job, I have four i visit twice a year and none suffer any predation from hawks. So where you come up with this stuff is anyones guess.
Oh, you're calling bullshit? Excellent 😈
Yes I am from my own experience, if that offends you tough luck, man up princess 😆
oh, "your experience"?
So, are you saying that NE have issued licences to control raptors for protection of poultry and air safety (as I had claimed) or not then?
I just want to see how far you're planning to take this before accepting that I was right after all.
Don't flatter yourself 🙄
So have they issued the raptor control licences or not pigface?
After all, you're the one who waded in claiming that it was utter drivel 😆
Tell you what, why don't you read this (the court case that found NE had unlawfully refused a licence to control buzzards on a pheasant shoot) before you come back and apologise:
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2015/3297.html
I called you out on chicken farms. Utter drivel, as I said in visiting 4 "free range" chicken farms twice a year to regulate them none of them has a license to control raptors.
We can do this as long as you want 😆
Jambafact #1,123,456
The countryside doesn't look after itself, there has to be a reason to manage it.
You really are an empty shell of a man. Are you seriously saying that the nature can't balance itself without the careful management of [s]blood thirsty cockwipes[/s] folk who genuinely care about the countryside as opposed to those ignorant townsfolk?
ooh, four? Wow! You do realise that anecdote is not data?
Now, how's about that pesky little court case above that confirms I was right after all?
Mmm I wonder what's happened to this interestin discussion overnight. Hopefully it's not descending in a futile peurile point scoring shambles....oh.
In reply to OP - £1400+VAT per person based on 10 guns / 800 birds or something like that (don't know the terminology) according to the poster on the back of the shooting club bogs that I was in recently.
In reply to the rest - Marginally cheaper than mopping out Calderdale
I saw a load of grouse on my ride on Sunday, all running around, it was like a scene from Jurassic Park. They don't look very hard to shoot.. or is that the idea?
Do shut up you tiresome man the four I go to is data duh, so it doesn't count because it doesn't fit in with your agenda, you said chicken farms, I called bullshit on chicken farms and you provide evidence for a Pheasant shoot 🙄
Pheasants aren't chickens you dullard 😆
They're supposed to take off - not sure the lackeys paid to scare em out of the heather appreciate surface-to-surface shots. They are a bit crap though but I don't suppose that bothers that fat, boozy, red-faced chaps tasked with shooting them though.
DezB - Member
They don't look very hard to shoot.. or is that the idea?
they don't fly very fast.
they don't fly very high.
they do fly in nice straight lines.
they like areas bereft of trees*, making for excellent visibility.
they're pretty much the perfect gamebird.
(*i've been to many, too many, land-management meetings where a large amount of time is spent discussing the 'progress' in the removal of self-seeded trees - in order to maintain the [i]natural[/i] habitat)
Finally up here this is being taken seriously. https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2016/08/03/vicarious-liability-prosecution-andrew-duncan-newlands-estate-part-9/
Speaking to one of the Natural England bods about grouse moors in Yorkshire they said the two they went to were over run with rabbits due to the persecution of predators. Hardly a natural environment.
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Quite liked this bingo card...
😆
Ninfan, I scan read that link but could only see an application / appeal for pheasant protection, not granted for chicken protection, where is it? Genuine question, I'm quite interested being a bit of a shooter myself
Are ninfan and Jamba the same person? Can't be two of them, surely...
Has this been done:
[url= http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/calder-valley-campaigners-leading-nationwide-11698076#ICID=sharebar_twitter ]Calder Valley campaigners are leading a nationwide fight to ban grouse hunting[/url]
There is no place in a balanced upland ecology for driven grouse shooting. Subsidised playtime for rich folks, unacceptable damage to everyone and everything else. We should ban it forthwith.
Highland man - you need another use for the land if you are going to do that. Otherwise its ends up deep heather and scrub and a mess.
Ninfan is not Jamby. While I am loathe to come to Ninfans aid on this topic - he does know what he is talking about albeit a very one sided view.
