both political wings destroyed that original essential "Englishness' that other nations used to admire about us.
O
M
F
G
PS the sexual revolution was caused by the invention of the pill afaik. I don't think that was a political event was it?
I'm all for a national identity, respecting our (english, although obviously anglo saxon) culture
I love the way the English say English when they mean British. I assume that what you mean or are you claiming some sort of albionesque cultural identity now?
and that people coming to out country should work and seek to live to our cultural rules and not try to change it to thier own.
I always thought one of our core values - iirc we got it from the Germans what with us being angles and hence england- is respect and tolerance for other cultures whilst assimilating them and making them British - DO you even know your own history ?
I dont think they are trying to force you to go to the mosque or eat an italian if you dont want to - you are th eonly one forcing a "culture" on folk - ironically whilst saying others dont have the right
I have nothing against foriegners races or religions but do expect them to respect our cultural background and not try to / be allowed to change it.
So nothing against them as long as they live like you ...that is very nice of you
Is that what the[s] Brits [/s]English are known for on the costa del sol and in France- their ability to assimilate seamlessly into the local culture whilst giving up everything about their previous culture - the point it is it is what humans do us be it us , the French or the Polish - what have they done to your culture - it is the white ones that annoy you I assume?
Does that ultimately make me "The centre" or slightly Left?
You know very well what that makes you
God Queen and Country and all that, it's viewed with contempt by the left,
The way it is abused is viewed with contempt. There is nothing wrong with supporting your "team" it is when you start disrespecting others because of this support that the problem arise- you think you are better and that is never good.
I can sympathise with the views that the typical Englishness that we knew in our youth has changed quite dramatically
Yes it makes a change from us exporting our culture to the world via the empire
Look at India the national sport there is cricket and the national dish here is curry. I am not sure why I should view this as a bad thing - could you explain?
I made that statement to out-qualify my comments as potentially racist, whilst making them in an attempt to summarise my political view - no need for insults
It is not like he said your culture had to be sub subservient to his now was it - why so sensitive? Your posts dont make it look like you are the sensitive type who is easily offended ....who knew eh
Whitegoodman you interchange English and British like they mean the same
Cougar I dont like the church bells of the call to prayer but find neither to be any more intrusive- I have kids so I am up these days anyway 😉
Re the call to prayer - yes, loud and annoying, but whenever I hear it (which is not often admittedly) I think of all the fighting and hatred that's gone on between various cultures throughout history, and I feel damn happy to live in an age and a country where it's possible to hear both church bells and the call to prayer.
I don't understand the appeal of patriotism at all personally. Welsh and Scottish nationalism has racist /xenophobic undertones IMO.
It doesn't have to.
I'm a proud Scot. I have some Polish friends who love Scotland and want to stay and raise their family here. This make me happy and more proud to be a Scot.
That's a very simple example that shows that nationalism doesn't need to be xenophobic and non-inclusive
Harold Wilson and the Labour Party gave us sexual revolution in the sixties
Who knew that the swinging sixties were down to the Labour party and that the fun loving pipe smoker was the heartbeat of the counter revolution and he even exported free love world wide to
You really want to know which part is wrong? REALLY?
Some people really do have some comedy gold views on this thread
Whitegoodman you interchange English and British like they mean the same
Well I did quite deliberately, slowly learning the pedant STW nature, British includes Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales etc and their cultures are slightly different.
Use of the Term English in the same way as it is used to describe our language, I felt was probably the more accurate option, but then I should have known better than to think i could please everyone.
Junkyard I'm not sure what you are hinting at / coming to the conclusion to.
Let me out it this way; In Barbados it is common for any person to stand and offer a woman with a small child a seat on a bus. Is that a cultural, black or religious issue?
Now, if I'm moved to Barbados permanently, and did't assume that courtesy, am I rascist, a religious pariah, or guilty of not confiming to the culture and whatever the conclusion is, do you think the Bajans would be happy if people were to live in thier country and refuse to observe it? And whats more, do you think they'd feel duty bound to educate me to the Bajan way to preserve it?
slowly learning the pedant STW nature
It's not pedantry, it's pretty important not to be called English when you're Scottish, Welsh or from Northern Ireland. Especially given the history!
Why don't I start calling you German or Danish? Would you correct me?
Is that a cultural, black or religious issue?
It's a social convention, an issue of manners. Observing these is a continuing issue, and not a racial or ethnic one.
That's a very simple example that shows that nationalism doesn't need to be xenophobic and non-inclusive
It doesn't have to but it often does. Being a proud Scot sometimes seems to involve being proud not to be English.
Junkyard - lazarus
Harold Wilson and the Labour Party gave us sexual revolution in the sixties
Who knew that the swinging sixties were down to the Labour party and that the fun loving pipe smoker was the heartbeat of the counter revolution and he even exported free love world wide to
You really want to know which part is wrong? REALLY?Some people really do have some comedy gold views on this thread
No some of you clearly were not there, it wasn't a counter revolution. Prior to that the previous administration under Macmillan and to a certain extent Heath attempted to suppress the trend. This being a thread about Right and Left Wing and their effect on what are we talking about here which is the alleged erosion of Englishness by other cultures.
You need to read the thread, understand then try and keep up. 😉
molgrips -
Is that a cultural, black or religious issue?
It's a social convention, an issue of manners. Observing these is a continuing issue, and not a racial or ethnic one.
It cultural Molgrips, its courtesy in your mind but prevalent to the Island and embedded in the culture. So as a foriegner to the island, I'd be encouraged to continue it. If then, they decided that its not applicable to Germans and Simon Cowell, are we watering down the culture or at best being ignorant?
whitegoodman - Member
Which bit is rubbish?
All of it, the picture you paint is about as realistic as 'Jerusalem' or 'Land of Hope and Glory'.
molgrips - Member
slowly learning the pedant STW nature
It's not pedantry, it's pretty important not to be called English when you're Scottish, Welsh or from Northern Ireland. Especially given the history!
Precisely why i used the term English and not British as I was being accused of by Junkyard who's late coming to the thread has ceased discussing and entered his usual attack mode.
Why don't I start calling you German or Danish? Would you correct me?
I was at a company do in Holland a few years ago. The new German CEO got up to give a speech. The [pissed] dutch in the audience started giving Nazi salutes and demanding the return of their bicycles. I don't mean the odd one. Dozens of them.
It made British "don't mention the war" quips quite tame.
So, yeah, be very careful confusing nationalities.
Kryton57 - MemberIt cultural Molgrips, its courtesy in your mind but prevalent to the Island and embedded in the culture. So as a foriegner to the island, I'd be encouraged to continue it. If then, they decided that its not applicable to Germans and Simon Cowell, are we watering down the culture or at best being ignorant?
Are you allowed to take strawmen on a bus?
Kryton do you have a specific example of foreigners subverting British 'culture' in mind?
Lifer - Member
whitegoodman - Member
Which bit is rubbish?
All of it, the picture you paint is about as realistic as 'Jerusalem' or 'Land of Hope and Glory'.
Yes, well that is the 'picture' we are discussing are we not? The breakdown of the English culture by Foreign incursion and the trend Left or Right encouraging it.
The point I'm making wether you accept or not that back then things were different and I have fond memories of the fifties, but then I was a child so everything would seem rosy to me. However it wasn't foreigners that changed it, nor was it either the Right or the Left, it was both in their own way.
Right contributing to the greed malaise and the Left swaying the sexual permissiveness that is so abhorred by some religious immigrants.
Junkyard who's late coming to the thread
You might want to check who did the first reply to the OP ....you will never guess who it was
It is always best to read an entire thread lest you shoot yourself in the foot like that
It will be interesting trying to work out which banned member you are returning to the fold [ save us the denial]
Lol, I'm trying to demonstrate loss of cultural identity by using something that cannot be misconstrued as racist/bigotist etc.
@ molgrips If I'm not allowed to sit outside a pub and drink alchohol becuase it might offend muslims who might see me (it has happened) is that not a removal of part of my cultural identify based on an (and to quote cougar) invasive culture which is not my own?
My view of that is, that's part of the English culture, live with it or walk somewhere else / shield you eyes / cope with the problem.
Where are you not allowed to drink outside a pub because of Muslims
Please cite the exact pub and law that prevents this offence to Muslims as I am calling BS on that
PS have you considered living with this or walking somewhere else?
It is going to go all Daily Mail very quickly and i bet a mod is sitting there with their finger on the closed buttone
I'll look into it Junkyard - it happened some years ago and was reversed due to public opinion /angst.... hold on...
FWIW, If I'm not allowed to sit outside a pub and drink alchohol becuase it might offend muslims who might see me (it has happened) is that not a removal of part of my cultural identify based on a non cultural (and to quote cougar) invasive culture which is not my own?
Many towns have banned outdoor drinking because of drunken violence and yobish behaviour, I think that is the more likely reason, but its easy to throw in an excuse like "it's the muslims". Not surprisingly but rather disappointingly many people seem to want to believe that crap.
There's no point believing in it, looking at alchohol isn't banned for muslims now is it.... which is why it was overturned IIRC, in that it was proved an example of positive discrimination....
There's no point believing in it, looking at alchohol isn't banned for muslims now is it.... which is why it was overturned IIRC, in that it was proved an example of positive discrimination....
I know it is me saying it [ that wont mena anything to you white van man so dont let the facade slip] but I need that in [s]British[/s] English or something vaguely comprehensible
Alcohol is still haraam, [forbidden] for Muslims as satans handiwork [ like gambling]
Junkyard in your misty eyed view of me of a sun reading, bacon eating, stella drinking fat burping stained vest delivery driver, you've forgotten to read properly.
I stated Muslims are not banned from "looking" at alchohol. In fact they are forbidden from intoxication which happens to include alchohol.
You seem to want to stray away from the subject and turn to insult mode (and doing a particularly bad job), so I shall thence forth treat you with contempt and ignore you on this thread for now. Goodbye.
They cancelled Christmas in Manchester one year because of Muslimic gay swan. Had to be called Winter Festival instead.
Also you can't use a three bar fire in a bath because it might upset Jews, its elfinsafety gone mad I tell thee
Back to the OP then, how could I be right wing with elements of the Left in me (aka support of appropriate public services via taxation)?
Or does the odd glitch in an overall trait not count to sway it?
Stan, really the statement junkyard quoted just doesn't make any sense.
[url= http://www.amazon.co.uk/England-An-Elegy-Roger-Scruton/dp/0826480756/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1368624172&sr=8-1&keywords=england%3A+an+elegy ]This book[/url] answers every question being raised on here, from monarchy to nationalism to whether it is right to speak of 'England' interchangably with 'Britain'.
I propose we start an STW book club, and make it the first read.
MSP - Member
Stan, really the statement junkyard quoted just doesn't make any sense.
I spotted the irony but decided against going to his level and calling him out on it MSP. I posted this thread for an education not an argument. This isn't the other place don't you know... 🙂
Book on England, go to be "pies and prejudice".
I had no idea what that post meant and I asked you to rephrase it*
I am not sure how that gets construed as an insult tbh let alone one so severe that it deserves a flounce.
As for straying from the subject you brought up this issue of Muslims and alcohol not me
Have we established yet whether there was any truth in your original claim yet or have you given up and admitted it was not true?
* You think I cannot read, Oh the ironing.
EDIT
Oh t eh double ironing
Stan, really [b]the statement junkyard quoted[/b] just doesn't make any sense.
I spotted the irony but decided against going to his level and calling him out on it MSP
what did i quote in my post?
I am not even sure if this is explicit enough for the penny to drop
Oh deary me
The best part of this thread was someone 'crying fowl'!
Was that a duck or a chicken? 😯
elfinsafety
😥
If I'm not allowed to sit outside a pub and drink alchohol becuase it might offend muslims who might see me (it has happened) is that not a removal of part of my cultural identify based on an (and to quote cougar) invasive culture which is not my own?
Well yes, but that was one person's poor decision, not a cultural shift. There are more beer gardens now than ever before I'd guess.
Back to the OP - it's specific beliefs that are left or right wing in flavour, although it's far more accurate to use the two-axis model above. So people themselves can have different ideas on how to solve problems of government.
The issue is that we have political parties. So a party is aligned broadly on left or right terms, but within that party there will be loads of variation on both axes of that graph. That's why they bicker amongst themselves. You don't have to subscribe to current Tory party ideas to be a Tory, or even to be a right-winger.
Certain ideas do have a lot of concurrency though. Libertarianism is quite closely linked to free-market ideology I tihnk, so those things both tend to crop up on the right.
In reality all four poles have their problems, and they are probably best solved by taking ideas to a greater or lesser extent from their opposite points.
Which is why we've arrived at a generally centrist position as a nation, and we're not communists or the Wild West.
These "offending Muslims" tales crop up from time to time, 'banning Christmas' and the like. I wonder how many of them actually contain offended Muslim content, and how many are either people making stupid decisions 'just in case,' or are the tabloids making it up to sell papers / turn people against immingrants.
I very strongly suspect that the number of Muslims actually offended by Christmas (or us drinking in pubs, or any of the other claims) is actually as close to "none of them" as makes no odds. And frankly if they are offended by Christmas they can roll it tightly and grease it lightly, and bloody well be offended.
Thus and so,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/topics/christmas/8220780/The-biggest-war-on-Christmas-myths.html
and the counterpoint,
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1212/p06s01-woeu.html
(Sorry, I know this isn't directly relevant, but I thought it was a good example)
Alcohol is still haraam, [forbidden]
DAMMIT! All the good stuff is haraam. This muslim thing just isn't for me. Are Buddhists allowed to drink real ale?
What is Right and Left?
(politics for numpty's)
