[Closed] What happens if the coalition breaks down?

I think you find that the majority will have taken a big risk, sometimes putting their house, time, family and sanity on the line in the process.

Please don't keep referring to a small minority or some odd examples to try and prove an argument.

[i]Why should they not be rewarded?

Unbelievable! [/i]

Of course they should be rewarded and taking risk is a central component of Capitalism. No disagreement there.

But you still haven't answered the question. How much money do you need. Do you think it is fair that many people in our society are struggling on a daily basis whilst others, IMO, earn enough to be able to pay more in tax and still lead a very comfortable life.

Is that really the sort of society you want to live in ?

CaptainFlashheart - Member

I have nothing of any real value to impart, yet I will attempt to make myself look clever by arrogantly picking up someone else because of their spelling mistakes.

No surprise there then Flashy. 🙄

Do you actually have anything intelligent to say, or is this a bit beyond you, as always?

Nice misquote there, Elf! 🙂

Nice misquote there, Elf!

Not at all. It's the thought that was in your head. Unable to actually engage in intelligent debate, so you try to appear all superior to others. Bit pathetic don't you think? Why not actually think up something of actual interest? Or are you unable to?

No, come on, NiceButDim; let's hear what you've got to say, cos you've obviously got something to say, haven't you?

Truth is, we know you lack the stones and the conviction to actually say owt really. Too scared of your views being shot down in flames?

Put your mouth where your money is, ToryBoy.

Oh, and here's a 😉 for you.

you've obviously got something to say, haven't you?

Afraid not.

Ah, thought not. No change there then.

Off back to your sad middle-aged man perving thread then. 😉

😆 You sound just like TJ...! 😀

Well, as TJ is clearly an intelligent, well-educated individual with a pretty open-minded view on life, I take that as a great compliment, thank you. 🙂

Nurses choose to be nurses and business leaders choose to be business leaders. You know the score before you enter the profession so why complain afterwards about who gets what? Whilst I do agree that there are a few highly publicised bankers etc who deserve the bad press they get, the majority of hard working euntrapraneurs should not have to suffer as a result and should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labour as a result. How they choose to spend their money is their own business, be that buying a luxury yauht, or giving to charity.

Written in a rush so apologies for the bad spelling.

Somebody else want a go? I'm off to bang my head repeatedly against a wall, as it'll be more productive...

[i]How they choose to spend their money is their own business, be that buying a luxury yauht, or giving to charity.[/i]

So is it fair to say that you don't really give a stuff about a fair society and really it's everybody for themselves ?

Or have i misread it ?

Whilst I do agree that there are a few highly publicised bankers etc who deserve the bad press they get, the majority of hard working euntrapraneurs should not have to suffer as a result and should be able to enjoy the fruits of their labour as a result. How they choose to spend their money is their own business, be that buying a luxury yauht, or giving to charity.

Or employing tax specialists to help them avoid paying the actual tax they owe.

You still haven't convinced me (or even provided any evidence) that the cuts are working btw.

I read page 1 and then flicked to 4, and the discussion had moved on.
however, i fail to see why people show such blind faith in labour after the last few years, i just don't get it.
tory cuts are approximately 19% of public spending, but didn't labour say that they were planning in the region of 20%?!
painful, yes, but would have been painful no matter who got in.
and people having a pop at Dave C, but is Ed M so much better, a man of the people, more working class, more inspiring, a potentially great leader etc. not in my book, no better/different at all.
bring back charles kennedy! the campaign starts here - nowt wrong with a few pints now and again...

Mancjon,

Don't be silly of course I believe in a society where everyone gets a fair chance and where the less fortunate are looked after. But I also believe in a society where those that choose to work hard and generate money and jobs for the UK get rewarded fairly. Otherwise where is the incentive for anyone to do well and work hard?

Simple answer isn't there - flat tax

Everyone pays the same %age, from the bottom to the top - no allowances, no reductions, no payback - same %age for all, even the lowest paid contribute, nominally, to the services they consume, which means they value them and don't waste them!

[b]Fair Taxation for all[/b][u]

rich pay more than the poor (thats how percentages work!) administration costs cut to the bone, way of the future!

Lifer no one know whether the cuts will work, let alone me. All I know is that carrying on borrowing more and more like we have been the last 10 years under Labour is not an option. As with any problem it's often best to tackle things head on and get it over and done with rather than tiptoe around the edges in a sort of non-commital way. For those that believe it will tip us into another recession then yes, possibly. But recessions don't last forever and growth always follows a recession. Hopefully when the growth starts again this country will be leaner, meaner and keener as a result. Basic principles of any business really.

I think you find that the majority will have taken a big risk, sometimes putting their house, time, family and sanity on the line in the process.

If only those that succeed could do something to reflect their gratitude for the safety net of welfare/social housing/schooling/mental health facilities provided by the state that enabled them to take said risks. There's surely something, but for the life of me i can't think of it....

Zulu-Eleven - Member

Simple answer isn't there - flat tax

One of the most stupid ideas from the far right.

Make the poor pay more and the rich pay less.

Northern star - the overwhelming evidence from history and the opinions of economists is that it won't work. The evidence is that its not working and GDP falls and tax receipts fall

remember both the debt and the deficit are perfectly manageable and not high by the standards of comparator nations.

Yeah, woah betide the idea it might make paper pushing civil servants redundant, eh TJ? I'm sure your priorities aren't even a little swayed by that element of the concept 🙄

its as if a million voices, all cried out in Unison, and were suddenly silenced

[i]Don't be silly of course I believe in a society where everyone gets a fair chance and where the less fortunate are looked after.[/i]

I was genuinely interested in the answer, not trying to be silly.

Because i don't disagree that effort should be rewarded although that does raise the issue of all those people who work very hard but in low paid menial jobs.

Where i struggle with your point of view is on the one hand you say it's fine for someone to buy a luxury yacht and then on the other hand say you believe in a fair society where the less fortunate are looked after. Because the two things are often at odds with each other.

Many many people work very hard and still struggle to make ends meet. They do jobs that we all rely on to make our society work. But, as Elfin pointed out, often in these sorts of dicussions, they seem to be discounted by some of the more right wing people. And don't forget, that although there are people who set their own businesses up etc.. there are just as many who gained their position through advantage, whether that be friends, education etc..

I don't discount your views, it's just that i struggle to see how you can allow parts of our society to become very well off while others suffer.

Elfinsafety
So, by your reckoning, 'doing well for yourself' is something that can only be measured in material wealth, then?

I totally agree but, in the fine stw tradition of arguing for the sake of it, doesn't....

Elfinsafety
Why should a nurse, who saves someone's life, not be 'rewarded' accordingly, for such a valuable job?

.....suggest that material wealth is the only reward ??

Problem seems to be one man's enough is another's too much, I don't know 'teh answer' and I guess no-one here really does either !

Radical new model of society is apparently needed, but those with the assets to implement it would be the one's who 'lose' most so it's not going to happen until it's in 'their' interests....

...all aboard the Brave New World express 😕

But recessions don't last forever and growth always follows a recession.

Amazing, guess it'll all be fine in the end then!

Hopefully when the growth starts again this country will be leaner, meaner and keener as a result. Basic principles of any business really.

The country is not a business.

Lifer no one know whether the cuts will work, let alone me.

Well all the evidence points to them [i]not[/i] working, so what does that tell you?

[url= http://duncanseconomicblog.wordpress.com/2011/02/15/the-dangers-of-spending-cuts-some-advice-from-the-imf/ ]The dangers of spending cuts[/url]

The IMF estimates that spending cuts of 1% of GDP subtract 0.5% from growth

If interest rates don’t fall and the currency doesn’t lose value then the IMF estimate that spending cuts of 1% of GDP subtract 1% from growth.

The IMF estimate that if other countries are cutting at the same time, if interest rates cannot fall and if the currency does not depreciate, then spending cuts of 1% of GDP subtract 2% from growth.

All I know is that carrying on borrowing more and more like we have been the last 10 years under Labour is not an option.

Acutally not true, again.

[url= http://duncanseconomicblog.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/britain-is-not-portugal-the-importance-of-debt-maturity/ ]The importance of debt maturity[/url]

According to the Debt Management Office, the average maturity of UK sovereign debt is 14 years. In the US, it’s about four years. In France and Germany it’s six or seven. Greek debt has an average maturity of just under 8 years. As I mentioned yesterday, they have about 10% of their debt coming due in the next few months.

That makes an enormous difference to the amount of gilts we need to ask the debt markets to buy in a given year. It also means that even fairly large increases in funding costs will only have a gradual effect on the cost of servicing UK debt. That burden is still lower today, as a share of total spending, than it was for most of the 1980s and 1990s.

For Greece, debt servicing costs now account for just under 12% of GDP. In the UK, it’s costing less than 3% of GDP.

[url= http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/04/14/why-the-type-of-debt-britain-owes-also-matters/ ]Why the type of debt also matters[/url]

Osborne is often keen to point out that the UK deficit is higher than that of Greece, or Portugal, or whoever is in the news with debt problems in any given month. But this misses the point. Britain might have a higher deficit than those countries but it still needs to borrow less in any given year.

This may seem counterintuitive, but it’s actually quite straight-forward. Whilst Britain has to issue more debt to fund its deficit, it has to refinance much less existing debt. The long debt profile means that less of the old debt is due each year.

...

Taken together I think the UK’s low stock of debt, the low interest rates it attracts and the debt profile outlined above more than offset the high deficit. I think the risk of cutting as fast and deep as the Government intends is far worse than the risk of a loss of confidence. I certainly don’t say that there is no chance the markets would lose faith in a British government that’s adopted a different approach, I just think the balance of risks points towards a less extreme and more growth friendly fiscal package.

Wading in with half the facts and fighting a corner you don't fully understand is a ridiculous position to be in.

fatmax - Member

I read page 1 and then flicked to 4, and the discussion had moved on.
however, i fail to see why people show such blind faith in labour after the last few years, i just don't get it.

That's the problem when you quickly flick through stuff.......you just don't get what people are saying.

I have seen no example of anyone suggesting "blind faith in Labour". Although apparently you have seen several examples of this.

Still as always.......don't let your blind prejudices get in the way of the facts.

Mancjon that's life I'm afraid, and things will never be perfect and I suspect there's no workable solution to your issue.

We just all need to accept that life is what we ourselves make it. We should rely on ourselves to provide and not the state.

Awwwww I got excited then.

ernie - take you point about skipping a couple of pages.
but i don't have any blind prejudices - i'm not a fan of any of them! voted lib dem at the last election...so i ain't particularly happy!

NorthernStar

We just all need to accept that life is what we ourselves make it. We should rely on ourselves to provide and not the state.

🙄

Disabled, blind, learning difficulties, chronic illness, etcetc

Tandem Jeremy don't be petty - of course I'm not advocating not supporting people genuinely in need.

To people who keep quoting GDP. Well this is only half the problem. What we really need to be looking at as a country is the balance of trade between what we import and what we export. This is something the private sector can help with. The public sector can offer virtually no help in this area.

There has been many studies done which shows that the health and size of the private sector in a country is inversely proportional to the size and influence of the public sector.

but i don't have any blind prejudices - i'm not a fan of any of them! voted lib dem at the last election...so i ain't particularly happy!

I apologise unreservedly for my comment in that case.

There has been many studies done which shows that the health and size of the private sector in a country is inversely proportional to the size and influence of the public sector.

Source? Link?

Germany is a good example - higher tax, higher public spending, health economy - remember healthcare is mainly in the private sector in ~Germany and accounts for 12 % of GDP

health

private sector

Suppose it depends on who's judging the health. 🙄

NorthernStar - Member

Tandem Jeremy don't be petty - of course I'm not advocating not supporting people genuinely in need.

So infact you don't believe

We just all need to accept that life is what we ourselves make it. We should rely on ourselves to provide and not the state.

Actually thinking about it, the ratio between private/public is quite fatuous, of course the private sector will increase as the public sector decreases as it picks up the roles/services left behind.

However, is the public or private sector better at providing certain services? eg would it make sense to push for more private sector involvement which may help the economy if it is detrimental to the services provided?

I think not, as the example of Atos assessments of fit for work shows.

Also infrastructure outsourced to the private sector is heavily subsidised, we pay more subsidies for the rail network now than we ever did for BR.

[i]Mancjon that's life I'm afraid, and things will never be perfect and I suspect there's no workable solution to your issue.
[/i]

But there is a solution, make the better off pay more. Not asking for perfection just a more balanced society. To say that it's just life is exactly how govts such as the present one get away with what they are currently doing.

It's also a cop out ie. "yes it's unfair, yes it's not right that some people earn a fortune but others struggle daily but heh, that's just life isn't it ?"

[i]We just all need to accept that life is what we ourselves make it. We should rely on ourselves to provide and not the state. [/i]

We should always accept that the primary responsibility is with ourselves but unfortunately not everyone can manage and that is where i believe the state should help out.

There has been many studies done which shows that the health and size of the private sector in a country is inversely proportional to the size and influence of the public sector

i'm not a fan of any of them! voted lib dem at the last election.

I wondered who it was

voted lib dem at the last election.

How's that turned out? 🙁

There has been many studies done which shows that the health and size of the private sector in a country is inversely proportional to the size and influence of the public sector

4OD still has the excellent and very relevant documentary based on Naomi Klein's book available to watch:

[url= http://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-shock-doctrine/4od#3053769 ]The Shock Doctrine[/url]