Socialism, fascism and other similar terms are archaic 19/20th century terms that are used now by people to bash their political opponents who believe society should be organised differently. We should move past them.
The real argument is how we manage capitalism. There isn’t anything else, anywhere. There have been experiments in the past but they have withered away or been overthrown. Now there are just degrees of capitalism from progressive social democracy to crazed dictatorship.
I’m all for reigning in untrammelled capitalism that concentrates wealth in the greedy paws of the very few and brutalises society to the extent that teenagers are stabbing each other in bus stops and the old fear winter, which is the direction we’ve been taken down by the neo-liberal experiment since the 80s. There are alternatives and we should be brave and smart enough to defy the powerful to demand that we change course. That doesn’t mean people can’t start businesses, create things, make money and enjoy the trappings of ‘success’, it just means they need to contribute enough back to create a happy and healthy society for everyone, including them, to live in.
I’m available for Prime Minister from Tuesday.
One thing - Capitalism can't really exist without a source of money - that is in countries like ours issued by the Goverment using tax liablities to give the currency demand. The whole commercial banking sector is backed by the BoE.
It's a total red herring that capitalism is somehow self-generating - and wealth creating. It merely moves money from one area to another - usually to fewer and fewer people.
Once we get our head around that and the usual lack of money arguments - you can see the state can be funded to whatever is available for the government to purchase. Politics decides what that is, and a dynamic private sector can flow forwards from that.
You don't really need to talk in terms of Socialism or Capitalism - just follow the distribution of how money is created and where it needs to be spent. Then don't talk of the private sector funding the public.
We have the worst of all worlds - two political parties that lie about what needs to be done and what could be done with Government funding, and too much money going to the few.
I think we're stuck currently - an economic cul-de-sac. No one wants to really make the changes needed it appears.
Nobody is forcing anyone to work, its just if you choose not to work you have to pay the consequences of your choice.
Absolutely. That's not very liberal though is it? In order to live a decent life most of us have to give up 5 days out of 7 and we have little choice in the matter. Pretty sure if you went and suggested that to some prehistoric or indegenous people who work a couple of hours a day they'd think you were an idiot.
The real argument is how we manage capitalism. There isn’t anything else, anywhere.
Sigh, yes there is. Capitalism in its current form has only existed for a couple of hundred years or so out of the 300,000 human beings have existed. It has also done more damage to the planet in those two hundred years than in the rest of history combined, and threatens our extinction if we continue with it. So ask yourself again, is there anything else? Because if not that's quite an extreme position to take.
prehistoric or indegenous people who work a couple of hours a day
I'm sure if you decided to work for a couple of hours a day you would be easily able to replicate their lifestyle. Assuming that is that the odd 60 million people on this island didn't do the same thing & the hunter/gatherer lifestyle proved to be a bit problematic.
Assuming that is that the odd 60 million people on this island didn’t do the same thing & the hunter/gatherer lifestyle proved to be a bit problematic.
So we're all working twice as much as we need so we can populate the planet more so we can use up it's resources faster, all so a tiny few rich people can live the life of kings. Is that liberal? Or sensible or logical?
the hunter/gatherer lifestyle proved to be a bit problematic.
Possibly. Its one of the big questions (with probably a lot of answers) about why the switch happened. Especially when you look at the comparative health of the two groups. It took a long time for farming to clearly outperform hunter gathering so what were the drivers for selecting it.
The real argument is how we manage capitalism. There isn’t anything else, anywhere.
Sigh, yes there is. Capitalism in its current form has only existed for a couple of hundred years or so out of the 300,000 human beings have existed. It has also done more damage to the planet in those two hundred years than in the rest of history combined, and threatens our extinction if we continue with it. So ask yourself again, is there anything else? Because if not that’s quite an extreme position to take.
If capitalism is the exchange of money for goods and services, then I'd argue that it has existed since the Romans in one form or another, probably longer.
Your argument is about the most recent version of it and how it works. I don't disagree with your fears about this crappy system, but if you can describe a system that isn't capitalism in some form or other I'd be pleasantly surprised. There's never been a truly collective system because there's always a boss class. Welcome to the animal kingdom, you're one of them.
If capitalism is the exchange of money for goods and services
It isn't, it is a term coined by Karl Marx to describe the existing social order at the time that he made the comment. Although he tended to refer to it as the capitalist mode of production.
Edit: Okay this is STW so I am likely to get pulled up by the fact that Marx wasn't the first to use the term, although I believe he was the first to talk about the "capitalist mode of production".
But the term capitalism is being used here on this thread in the context of Marx's definition, not ancient Rome.
So we’re all working twice as much as we need so we can populate the planet more so we can use up it’s resources faster, all so a tiny few rich people can live the life of kings. Is that liberal? Or sensible or logical?
umm. We are where we are. We have 60 million people on this island. What do you propose to do. Euthanse 99% of them so that the remainder can live a blissful low tech pastoral lifestyle? Doesn't sound very socialist to me, although it might be quite utopian for the remaining few.
The socialist utopia is always just over the rainbow. To get there just use Orwell as an operating manual while ingesting a modernised version of Marx, updating oppressor/oppressed to whatever groups seems most likely to win you support. Be sure to politicise The Current Thing be that mutilating/drugging confused children or making energy unaffordable, spout hypocrisy, make everything about identity, and when you're in just raise taxes and spend. Be sure to build a wall to stop people escaping and don't forget to pass Draconian thought crime legislation and rewrite history along the lines of the Chinese revolution. Voilà, everyone's happy.
"I haven’t got a local one.. **** Tories."
You live in Wales, I don't believe the Tories have been in power there for some time.
umm. We are where we are. We have 60 million people on this island. What do you propose to do. Euthanse 99% of them so that the remainder can live a blissful low tech pastoral lifestyle?
How many of those 60 million actually do something truly necessary? How many jobs are just a bullshit way of propping up lifestyles that serve no real purpose and add to the demise of our planet? Our whole system is terribly ****ed and the vast majority of us spend our very short lives doing dumb shit that doesn’t make us happy or add any quality to our lives or those of wider society. Yet that is just the way things are and we have to accept it.
Yes I’m in a shit mood 😂
Capitalist democracies are no different to authoritarian socialist states
You could maybe construct a logical argument to that effect but it would be worthless as in reality capitalist democracies are very very different to authoritarian socialist states and it it's a bit of an insult to those who lived through some pretty terrible times to suggest otherwise.
You may be forced to work, in some degree or other, but on some level this is no different to how it has been forever. Humans have always had to go out and find food and shelter which is still work. You might be bored and frustrated with your 9-5 grind writing TPS reports or whatever you do, but you might find going out to look for berries or squirrels every single day of your life and living in the same village in the same valley just as tedious. As hunter gatherers, few people have the time to dedicate their lives to bigger issues like inventing machines to do things, discussing the meaning of life or working out how to solve the world's problems.
lifestyles that serve no real purpose
What purpose do any of us have?
You live in Wales, I don’t believe the Tories have been in power there for some time.
Wales is in the UK, the UK is run by Tories. The WG can only do so much with the budget it's given.
To enjoy life and be content. Neither of which I’m going to do when I spend most of my life working!
As hunter gatherers, few people have the time to dedicate their lives to bigger issues like inventing machines to do things, discussing the meaning of life or working out how to solve the world’s problems.
People making machines and thinking is what got us to the state we’re in now. It’s resulted in more people thinking of ways to right the wrongs made by the last lot of people thinking.
I’ve seen documentaries following small tribes of Hunter gatherers. They spend a great deal of time napping and work when they need to. Not by an arbitrary set of rules to earn money to buy things that aren’t needed in the vain hope that continuing to do so will bring fulfilment. As I said, bad mood 😂 if you spend more than five minutes thinking about most of the jobs that exist it results in a WTF are we actually doing moment. At least for me it does 😊
I blame the people who invented agriculture. You thought Boomers were bad.
"The US is a terrible place to live for the majority."
I would clearly organise a lot of things differently in the US if I were a benevolent dictator, and not many Swiss or Singaporeans are jumping the border into the US. But compared to where people are going to the US from - El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, Venezuela, Mexico etc - working class life in the US evidently seems pretty attractive. What is going on in Central America at the moment is quite horrific, for example.
"I blame the people who invented agriculture”
I went to a gathering of hunters many thousands of years ago.
Mexico etc
a fair proportion of why their lives are so bad is down to the place they are fleeing to.
Well luckily for me I live in a liberal democracy where major utilities are either publicly owned. or publicly regulated and society and taxation are designed to provide adequate services for all strata of society and to prevent crushing levels of inequality.
That is not the same as a communist society where everything is owned by the state rather than the public.
The fact that things are horrific in Central America doesn't remove the fact that 40million people in the US live in what is defined as poverty, and that definition is pretty harsh.
How many jobs are just a bullshit way of propping up lifestyles
David Graeber wrote a book about that too.. 🙂
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/may/25/bullshit-jobs-a-theory-by-david-graeber-review
and the vast majority of us spend our very short lives doing dumb shit that doesn’t make us happy or add any quality to our lives or those of wider society. Yet that is just the way things are and we have to accept it.
Yep, seeing the human race should be in control of the human race it all seems a bit shit doesn't it.
I often looks at my dogs and cats and envy them. They have got it right.
They have got it right.
You are projecting. My cats spend their whole lives wandering about the same small area of land, or sitting doing nothing. I'd get bored pretty quickly with doing that my whole life and I suspect you would too.
Just to be clear I dislike the status quo greatly, but I don't think stone age culture is the answer. We need something better.
but I don’t think stone age culture is the answer.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that, but we could learn a lot of lessons. The first thing we need to do is abandon economic growth and stop measuring/calculating GDP. Then introduce a 4-day week and start talking about universal basic income.
My cats spend their whole lives wandering about the same small area of land, or sitting doing nothing. I’d get bored pretty quickly with doing that my whole life and I suspect you would too.
The point is more to do with the fact they do what they want and don't have to spend 8 hours a day doing something for someone else. Would I rather sit around at home getting everything done for me and not working all my life. Yep.
UBI is the key, but it needs masses of good social housing at controlled rent prices.
Thinking about it - housing is something that everyone needs, and yet the price is completely flexible. This is insane. Landlords or developers can charge the maximum the market can sustain and soak up everyone's spare cash.
The point is more to do with the fact they do what they want
Hmm, that's only possible because they have very simple brains and what they want is easily achievable. What you want is much less so (I'd imagine). You could maybe have an elective lobotomy?
Socialism is many things to many people.
Equity of opportunity in education and health would appear to be a good start.
We don’t have those simple starts in life sorted in the UK and on that basis everything is unfair and whilst it allows the very few to make obscene amounts of money the wider society suffers, hey ho, that’s capitalism for you.
UBI is the key
I completely agree with this and @dazh comment re: GDP and economic growth . No way am I attempting to use the quote function twice in one post though.
I’m with Kerley too. Work gets in the way of all sorts of fun stuff. I’d be a lot fitter, smarter, much better at various hobbies and get to see my kids more if I could work less. The way we live is a bit nuts tbh. If some mad bastards want to work eighty hour weeks let them. Although I sincerely doubt that anyone is productive doing so.
All seems like such a waste to me. For those motivated by work, hats off to you. For the rest of us it’s a bit shit staring longly out of the window thinking of all the fun stuff we could be doing. Even napping!
Exactly. If UBI was enough for a basic life, any extra (bikes, fine wines, C&H, trips to Chamonix etc) would be funded by the work you do. But it would be your choice, not someone else's. It would radically change society.
Even a liveable absolute minimum would be a huge change because it would give you the ability to leave a shitty job and find a new one without significant risk. That would flip the balance of power, and force employers to be better to us all.
But it would be your choice, not someone else’s. It would radically change society.
This is the point I was making previously about being forced to work. Personally as long as this is the case I don't think any of the other freedoms we enjoy amount to what I would call a 'liberal' state. Forcing people to work to avoid starvation or homelessness isn't liberal, it's sadistic and oppressive.
what I would call a ‘liberal’ state
Yeah, but not everyone shares that definition so be careful using it.
"This is the point I was making previously about being forced to work. Personally as long as this is the case I don’t think any of the other freedoms we enjoy amount to what I would call a ‘liberal’ state. Forcing people to work to avoid starvation or homelessness isn’t liberal, it’s sadistic and oppressive."
Yeah but no one is suggesting that are they, what they are suggesting is those that can contribute to society are expected to do so, those that can't for reasons other than they can't be arsed are supported. Talk about hyperbole.
It would be great if there were enough people in society who enjoyed working so that those who don't wouldn't have to but that's just unrealistic. In fact the very nature of society providing a safety net and care for the people unable to look after themselves means someone has to wipe backsides, clear up sick, deal with abuse from people suffering from mental health conditions. Whilst there are some amazing people out there who actually would do those jobs for the satisfaction of helping others there are rather few of them. Same can be said for people emptying bins in all weathers, working in retail or hospitality. There are plenty of dead end jobs which whilst the working conditions could undoubtedly be improved are still pretty unfulfilling but never the less useful or desirable for society to see done. But not at any cost, we all love a takeaway coffee but we're not going to pay £10 for it so the Barista earns a comfortable income, it's not about the person it's about where we choose to spend our money and the value we perceive we get back from it.
Maybe we nationalise coffee chains to take the profit element away but I reckon the coffee quality and desirability would go down hill rather quickly.
We’re not talking about can’t be arsed really. We’re saying that the amount of time spent at work is daft. Even more so when the job is pretty pointless. Funny you should mention coffee shops. I occasionally use them but I wouldn’t be fussed if they disappeared overnight. What do they actually bring to the world? The independent ones would probably stay around as they’re clearly run by people that care about coffee. Starbucks and Costa etc would simply cease to be.
People could still work in the care industry with UBI. Some would probably want to. The discussion on quality of life is a whole other topic. Mrs F’s great grandma is 97 and has simply had enough. She can do very little for herself and has to have people wash her. She doesn’t want that yet society as it stands forces it on her. She simply doesn’t wish to be here anymore. Yet she is forced to stay and people have to look after her. It’s ****ed up.
We’re saying that the amount of time spent at work is daft.
Yep. Why don't we all work for 3 hours a day, why is the norm 8 hours and who is that for the benefit of - it is not the 99% of people are are doing the 8 hours a day is it.
A good example of how the vast majority of people in society are not actually choosing how their society should be because a small minority of people don't want them to.
You say no-one wants to do care work. But what if it paid a grand for two half days a week on top of your UBI? I bet you'd get takers.
It is not a search, it is a discussion on what a socialist utopia would look like. Could include things like UBI, different ways of working, housing for everyone by default - sounds good doesn't it.
What do you think it would look like?
What do you think it would look like?
No point of reference, of a working socialist utopia anyway.
Plenty of failed socialist utopias to choose from.
My,we're spoiled for choice there 🙂
Molgrips I'm sure you would but I bet the care still wouldn't be great. So you filled the the roles through financial inducement, that's not socialist, it's capitalist. Going to do that with other necessary jobs people don't want to do? Where does it end? It doesn't work.
Sure we could all drop to 3 hours a day but that wouldn't work either. Our society requires a certain number of man hours worked to function, Ok close all the coffee shops and other non essential services, retailer outlets, hospitality, entertainment etc and you reduce the man hours need to make society work but we'd still be short and God would it be boring.
But people could still choose to have shops of any variety and run them for as many or as few hours as they’d like. There’d just be no need to work somewhere in order to pay the bills. It’s really a rather simple concept. Work would be a choice not a necessity. Some would choose to do lots, some a bit less, some even less and some none at all.
If you want lots of toys and a lavish lifestyle, crack on. If you want to fill your time riding your bike, spending more time with your family and watching the world go by, go for it. It would also allow people to do jobs that they actually want to do and find fulfilment I as opposed to spending most of their lives doing something just because they have to. That’s how a lot of people live and it’s soul destroying for them.
With UBI you could take time to retrain, learn new skills, all without pressure and stress whilst worrying about how the next bill gets paid. Not everyone lives like the typical STW forum member.
So how would that work then, shops opennjng for a few hours when they feel like. Probably not an issue if its art supplies, what about food retailers, pharmacies etc.?
The point is work is not a choice and it's not optional. Back in the mists of time you did everything for yourself, it wasn't work it was survival. Then people realised so people were better at some things so people started to do daily tasks for others in return for them doing stuff. And 'work' was born. Turned out if you do one job all day you're more productive and skilled at it, crazy huh.
The idea that employees can choose how little or much they work isn't a socialist utopia (I don't think it's even socialist) it's deluded. This is why capitalism evolved, at least in principle it is a fair system for rewarding contribution. Obviously in reality it's a long way from fair but despite all the doom sayers it is still very slowly getting better but won't be perfected in our lifetimes.
I like the bit where people get free food and shelter, with the food a ndshelter either magically plentifully existing, or being somehow provided at scale by hobbyist gardners and DIY'ers.
I guess this works in Star Trek where essential needs are met with a magic machine that doesnt even need buttons (earl grey, hot!). We have the 'without buttons' bit done so that's something
The other thing to consider if people choose how long the work is health. People may not realise but for most people working improves both mental and physical health. Just the interaction with others is good for mental state. On the physical side if you think we have an obesity problem now wait until people choose to work a handful of hours.
People might think the idea of not being forced to work is great but the alternative would come with massive unintended consequences because people are people.
