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tjagainFull Member
as mentioned above we also need to change attitudes to obesity. My GP told me I am slim. I am actually right at the top edge of “normal” BMI pushing towards overweight and at least a stone overweight
This. Obesity has become normalised. Being slim is becoming a rarity, and people see being “chubby” as being ok.
I would suggest that anyone who gets into cycling to a reasonable degree, and more so mtbs, is unlikely to be in the strata of UK society that becomes / is susceptible obese as a result of poverty . Serious cycling is not cheap and anyone with the disposable income and the desire to become healthier via cycling is likely to be able to afford to, and want to, make other changes to their diet at the same time.
This is a society wide problem. It's not just the poorest and most disadvantaged that have become larger and less unhealthy. We must stop talking like it is a from for 'them'. Yes, the solutions might differ for different sectors of the population but in the example above, this person who got on a bike and changed other aspects of their life previously hadn't. We need more of those success stories because for every one of those with the disposable income and wherewithal to do something about it who does there are....15 or 20 (pure guess work) who are not.
It seems to me that there are two of us on this thread who probably know more about obesity and public health, and that we’re broadly in agreement, it’s just that we disagree with you.
this.
I think that was my point
@anagallis_arvensis: Based on your post on the ‘Unspoken battles with your other half…’ thread my wife thinks you and I are the same person, so it’s good to see that we agree 🙂
This is a society wide problem. It’s not just the poorest and most disadvantaged that have become larger and less unhealthy.
in my observations around here in the poorer areas you see fat women and thin men, in the affluent areas its skinny women and fat men
How do people feel about enforcing calorie information on restaurant and takeaway foods?
Meta studies show that it doesn't really make any difference. The most succes that has ever been shown for schemes like this is that they can do briefly as folks go "Look at the calories in that" and may make temporary changes, and then they either don't look any more, or make a decision that goes "I want a burger anyway, so I may as well have the 750 Kcal one over the 500Kcal one". If it makes a difference to you personally, it's likely that you would do that anyway, for most of the folks that should pay attention to it, won't. Plus it's pretty bad overall for the mental health of folks that have food based mental health issue.
But, it's a cheap way for the Govt - like pictures of diseased lungs on cigarette packets, to be able to say that they're providing information, or they taken steps to alert people to what's in their food, or some other such nonsense. About the only indicator that folks pay attention to, and that's easily identifiable is the coloured traffic light system. Which is why the food industry has -successfully so far , lobbied hard against its wider uptake.
Driving everywhere has become just so normalised and so few kids cycle or walk to school so don't get the experience at the start of their lives, even on here there are many threads about what car/insurance to get my son/daughter. Going back over 20yrs now but my son got called names because he cycled to secondary school. Where I live now there is a half decent shared use path which has recently just been linked up to the local school with HS2 funding & guess what a fair few kids cycle to school. No amount of advertising & education is going to help if there isn't the infrastructure in place to start with.
I would suggest that anyone who gets into cycling to a reasonable degree, and more so mtbs, is unlikely to be in the strata of UK society that becomes / is susceptible obese as a result of poverty
No one is obese as a result of poverty, you are confusing cause and effect with a correlation. Obesity is caused by over eating, especially poor quality food, and lack of exercise. These two things are closely linked with poverty for many obvious reasons.
The suggestion that exercise is not linked to reduced obesity is ridiculous. I agree that telling obese people to exercise is not helpful and I agree that even when they do exercise it doesn't help much this is because this:
You learn to do the activity more efficiently and so use less energy when doing it.
Is also bollocks Pogacar does not have more efficient mitochondria than me, he has more mitochondria, so he burns more fuel, I also burn more fuel than an obese person starting biking if we both did an hour's ride at a similar level of exertion. I might do 200w they might do 100w, I have burnt more fuel. This is the crux of why exercising to lose weight is tough. But sticking at it and getting fitted will see benefits as you will start to burn more fuel. Easier said than done obviously.
Look at the calories in that
Another big problem, we should not be looking at the calories in the food but the calories absorbed into the blood from the food. 300kJ of carrots compared to 300kJ of ultra processed pizza or whatever will affect the body differently.
Calorie labelling on menus has little impact on consumer behaviour, but may lead to beneficial reformulation of the food itself.
No amount of advertising & education is going to help if there isn’t the infrastructure in place to start with.
Spot-on @Dickyboy - and this applies just as much to diet as it does to physical activity.
Is also bollocks
In 2012 Hunter gatherers (the Hazda) were given GPS trackers to measure their activity and turns out that they expend almost identical energy as the average office worker although they still move around much more. It's probably a decent study to show how we all share a common genetic inheritance. They compensate by resting more, and their bodies are more efficient at doing the long distance hunting thing.
Our obesity epidemic is almost all down to the environment we've created for ourselves rather than any significant decrease in exercise that folks are doing (or not)
In 2012 Hunter gatherers (the Hazda) were given
That's great but what does it have to do with the UK's obesity epidemic. I reckon all of us are not hunter gatherers
It’s probably a decent study to show how we all share a common genetic inheritance
What does this even mean?
Our obesity epidemic is almost all down to the environment we’ve created for ourselves rather than any significant decrease in exercise that folks are doing (or not)
Do you have evidence for this? Care to address the point I made or not Pog is not more efficient than me at a cellular respiration level
I'm noticing that there are a lot more fat young (20's) people lately (predominantly girls) and it's not exclusively in areas you'd associate with poverty.
A lot at the gym too, so whether they are trying to do something about it by being at the gym, or the exercise just isn't helping (due to their lifestyle outside of the gym), who knows?
Whilst poverty can lead to bad habits and obesity, there are a lot of overweight/obese people in all walks of life these days that probably aren't poor
There's also the fact that we covered a while back (I used Lizzo as an example) that the media celebrate/normalise being fat these days
What does this even mean?
That genetically; all humans are broadly alike. If you stuck the Hazda in our environment, regardless of how many miles and miles they might want to trek, they'd probably over generations show the same sorts of weight gains the we do. It's more beneficial to study these people than it is to compare yourself to a genetic freak like Pogacar.
That genetically; all humans are broadly alike.
But
a genetic freak like Pogacar.
We all have the same genes as humans I am not sure what your point is you are going round in circles. My point about Pog and cellular respiration is valid just as much as my example of comparing me with a non cyclist, I can likely put out twice the power of a non cyclist so use twice the energy. This energy has to come from food so I can eat more and not gain weight. Losing weight comes from a calorie deficit. That can be produced from less energy into the blood from food or more used from exercise, to try to deny this is ridiculous and would mean rewriting the laws of physics. I accept it's a simplification of how you can actually lose weight and I accept that losing weight isn't easy but calorie deficit will lead to weight loss (again it must be calories absorbed not consumed). I bet these hunter gatherers you like talking about were absorbing far less calories than they were eating in comparison to a typical UK family
A lot at the gym too, so whether they are trying to do something about it by being at the gym, or the exercise just isn’t helping
I see quite a few overweight people downing protein shakes and energy drinks all the time so that they can go to the gym or recover from the gym.....
We all have the same genes as humans I am not sure what your point is you are going round in circles.
But how you process the same food can be massively different to how the next person does; Gut biome, metabolism and so on means that the calories you extract from the same meal may be different from the next person, so your rate of energy expenditure may be different* Comparing one person against another person isn't worthwhile. Comparing groups is. In a 2019 study People who eat the same amount of calories, nutrients etc but get that from unprocessed food didn't gain weight compared to people who eat exactly the same calories and nutritional intake but made with high or ultra highly processed food. Highly processed food is the link to all these studies, we're not eating the same food that our parents and grandparents ate, and it's making us fat.
*although, humans aren't calorimeters, we're not 'burning' our food.
Is also bollocks
You seem very angry about this subject, and the fact that it may be more complex than you think.
No one is obese as a result of poverty
I never knew food poverty was just a lifestyle choice, people are obese because they make poor decisions.
The latest episode of the Streets Ahead podcast features some positive rumblings from Louise Haigh MP, Secretary of State for Transport. In an interview, she openly discusses how an effective active travel infrastructure will increase the health and well-being of the population (and save the NHS a load of cash). The proof will be in the delivery, of course.
so on means that the calories you extract from the same meal may be different from the next person, so your rate of energy expenditure may be different
You are just talking gibberish. You seem confused intake and expenditure. You also don't seem to have read anything I have said.
In a 2019 study People who eat the same amount of calories, nutrients etc but get that from unprocessed food didn’t gain weight compared to people who eat exactly the same calories and nutritional intake but made with high or ultra highly processed food
So we agree it's calories absorbed that is key.
You seem very angry about this subject, and the fact that it may be more complex than you think.
Not angry at all tbh. You are talking bollocks by saying that exercise is not linked to obesity, it may be a smaller factor than diet but it cannot possible not be a causative factor unless you are suggesting the laws of physics are wrong.
As eloquently pointed out by several posters; it is a complex web of determinants that leads to obesity. Different combinations of factors can lead to the same outcome but with commonalities at a population level. It doesn’t preclude that some approaches, with a more narrow focus, can work for not inconsequential numbers of people although not at a population level e.g. specific dietary and lifestyle approaches used by groups of GPs.
There is also a bigger, linked, picture around the economy, societal happiness and our health span with lots of commonalities. Changing how we structure school, educational topics and focus, activity, active transport, built environments, food environments, poverty, societal norms, attitudes towards exercise and on. So, most of us are right and wrong, do what we can wherever we can?!?
Working with patients over more than two decades, the solution to the same problem is totally different for different patients. Sometimes it is exercise, other times it might be to join a gardening or painting group. But that is only for small numbers of people, with support, and not going to change anything at a population level. 🙂
In an interview, she openly discusses how an effective active travel infrastructure will increase the health and well-being of the population (and save the NHS a load of cash).
Anecdotally, a good chunk of NHS workers I encounter are fat
I never knew food poverty was just a lifestyle choice, people are obese because they make poor decisions.
Poverty is one major factor. Known about decades a go. Orwell wrote about it. This is not anything new or controversial . Its well known and documented
Playing catch up on this thread-hence possibly already discussed, but there needs to be a shift in mindset re: obesity being an individual responsibility to ‘eat less and move more’ to a fundamental change to the system we live in which is driving obesity. Basically the environmental, wider building blocks of health (e.g. housing, economy, employment, education etc) play a far bigger role in determining our health. The Foresight report already cited earlier in the thread shows the huge range of factors in the system map that influence energy balance and shows sheer complexity of this challenge. Having deduced who Lorax is, the reality is that there is no single solution to tackling obesity! Responsibility also does not sit with one organisation etc- there needs to be shared understanding of this complexity and how everyone has a role to play. Prevention of obesity and enabling children to have a healthy weight to enable future generation to start on lower risk trajectory is crucial. At an individual level, there will remain a need for effective weight management support (despite GLP-1 and GIP RA drugs with proven efficacy for weight loss, weight loss maintenance remains the million dollar question even following bariatric surgery). Further challenge is the misunderstanding, stigma and discrimination regarding people living with obesity, which is stopping people from getting treatment and support.
Anecdotally, a good chunk of NHS workers I encounter are fat
I think probably at a higher rate than the general population. Shift work and comfort eating will be factors at a guess
Working with patients over more than two decades, the solution to the same problem is totally different for different patients. Sometimes it is exercise, other times it might be to join a gardening or painting group. But that is only for small numbers of people, with support, and not going to change anything at a population level. 🙂
I like this post, a small change however does change the population it shifts the curve, this is why active travel would have a big impact, we need to use all the levers available, as you say exercise is one!
You are talking bollocks by saying that exercise is not linked to obesity, it may be a smaller factor than diet but it cannot possible not be a causative factor unless you are suggesting the laws of physics are wrong.
The idea that it's fat = energy in - energy used is over-simplistic.
People are not calorimeters. They are far more complex than that.
Just because I may have a different perspective to you is no reason to be abusive. If you are going to continue to do so, then you're not worth engaging with further.
Will power - is this something we're born with, is it something we learn? I can't answer but I do have very strong will power, meaning I can step away from the rubbish sold in supermarkets that shouldn't be classed as food.
Everything nowadays is for ease, comfort, for convenience. Meaning we don't have to put much effort in, if so wish.
Again my generation had to switch the telly over by actually getting out of the chair and pushing a button on the box. We had to carry heavy shopping home as 'most' families didn't have a car (or only one). The diet was usually a plateful of veg, a few spuds and a tiny bit of meat, boring yes but if you were 'taught to cook' these meals were lovely. The plates and portions were smaller, no 3 courses. For example the very first pizza I ever ate was cut into 5 slices and eaten with a salad for the family. My father didn't have all these garden gadgets eg leaf blower, hedge trimmer, power jet washer. He used shears, a brush and elbow grease. The house work was done with fewer gadgets too. This is all only a few decades ago (not the 1800's :o) ).
One thing I found as a person who started exercising later in life, was that I didn't crave rubbish food when cycling, skiing or maybe going on long walks.
Just one more observation: children today seem to be fed on a diet of pasta or rice, now if this is all one can afford then so be it, but it's really easy to slip in some veg (frozen, fresh, canned) in with a sauce that goes with the pasta or rice.
I do have very strong will power, meaning I can step away from the rubbish sold in supermarkets that shouldn’t be classed as food.
Having met you and having seen your phenotype (albeit a long time ago) I suspect that what you're attributing to will power could be down to be genetics.
Shift work and comfort eating will be factors at a guess
You should see the staff room at the GP practice I work at. there's a constant supply biscuits and cake, and the patients are forever bringing in stuff - especially at Xmas and Easter. Mind you we often have after work meetings and they're almost always fuelled by take out pizza and fizzy pop.
Fat tax on fast food.
Fat tax on highly processed food.
Manufacturers are not allowed to add salt to anything they sell as a "ready meal".
Extra penalty for using a Drive Thru restaurant (air pollution + congestion).
Link business rates to active travel facilities (eg a supermarket which has terrible walking and cycling provision gets their business rates quadrupled or higher.
Pay per mile for road use by ALL vehicles, with a sliding scale highest at the shortest distances.
Extra funding for schools which have a reasonable proportion of students arriving by bike / foot / public transport.
Ban parking in town centres and offer free park and ride, or a pay and claim service for buses (eg instead of the shop refunding your parking ticket, they refund your bus ticket).
Allow e-scooters everywhere. Accept there will be some accidents.
Properly prosecute dangerous driving.
All pedestrian crossings get priority when the beg button is pressed.
Properly prosecute DPF deletes and remaps.
All motorways get 60 mph limit for air quality.
If rail operators get to raise their prices by inflation + x%, so too should the tax on fuel.
Public charge points are VAT-exempt.
Bicycles become VAT-exempt.
Two-stroke engines are banned.
Low income families collect a free crate of fruit and veg each week from a supermarket of their choice (funded by the tax on their enormous car parks suggested earlier).
Deal with crap PE teachers. Had I not been bullied by the teachers 'cos I didn't like football I didn't start running properly until my 20s. Could possibly have competed at a national level if I'd started younger.
Teach kids how to cook more than a pasta bake in schools.
Probably more but running out of space.
Having met you and having seen your phenotype (albeit a long time ago) I suspect that what you’re attributing to will power could be down to be genetics.
A good friend I’ve known since secondary school is known for a between meals burger. I exercise way more than him and I’m a good bit taller. He’s starting to put on a slight belly in his fifties, but if I ate like that I’d be huge.
Usually 6 of us manage to meet up for weeks a riding holiday and aside from one chap who got very excited a new burger chain had opened near him, I’ve noticed that the amount of and type of food doesn’t tally with the body types.
Were almost all skinny when we first knew each other in our teens. Although I was still around 90kg.
The diet was usually a plateful of veg, a few spuds and a tiny bit of meat, boring yes.............children today seem to be fed on a diet of pasta or rice,
Despite agreeing with the rest of what Bunnyhop says, I take issue with this hidden point.
We (as a group) can't make the assertion that the meat and veg plate loved by my parents and grandparents is superior than pasta and rice dishes; while also saying that the mediterraneans and east asians are skinnier/healthier eaters than us.
The idea that it’s fat = energy in – energy used is over-simplistic.
People are not calorimeters. They are far more complex than that.
Indeed, I talked about that, it is calories absorbed into the blood that are key. As I said 100kJ of carrots won't affect you like 100kJ of mars bars. Even after that differences will be seen between different individuals but at a population level exercise levels will make a difference, to deny this is ridiculous. A quick Google search on exercise and obesity comes up with many peer reviewed papers showing a link between exercising more and reduced obesity.
one of my riding buddies eats piles of carbohydrates and remains at 64kg.
Classic anecdote = fact
one of my riding buddies eats piles of carbohydrates and remains at 64kg. He also doesn’t get that hungry between meals. His brother and father are exactly the same. They’re lucky with their genetics.
Surely you can't know it's their genetics without tests/tracking habits/everything the eat throughout the day and so forth.
If we're talking anecdotes than, as a counter, I sound like your friend. I also eat piles of carbohydrates and have been 181cm/75kg for twenty years. It may well be genetics, it may well be a middle-class background. But there are obese and overweight people in my close family with presumably similar genetics and identical backgrounds. A very clear difference between me and them is that I eat a lot less and move about a lot more. I'm not claiming I have superior willpower or anything - maybe I'm lucky to have an active job and hobbies and not to have a particularly sweet tooth. Maybe I did got some freak genes or fell into a less obesogenic environment.
All anecdotal of course.
I'm not arguing that poverty or genetics don't play a part, and it may well be genetics or environment in my case, but I don't think you can claim they're the over-riding causes for everybody as you appear to be doing in some posts.
I am currently thinking that what you do is to separate the whole diet and exercise thing. Basically if you ignore peoples size and get them to do some exercise they will probably be healthier than they are.
If you ignore the weight and try to change peoples diets to contain better quality ingrediants that are actually food and not the product of a chemistry set they will also be healthier.
If you keep having a message that you are obesse because you ate to much and sat on your arse and it's your fault you will still end up with unhappy unhealthy people.
So move more, eat better.
The government can then try and get food suppliers to supply healthy wholesome food. Good luck with that.
You should see the staff room at the GP practice I work at. there’s a constant supply biscuits and cake
But how are we supposed to educate the masses if the ones that are supposed to know better don't even try?
I don’t think you can claim they’re the over-riding causes for everybody as you appear to be doing in some posts.
You're entitled to disagree.
And to be clear, I'm not saying for everybody just for most people.
As is clear from this thread, the long history of anti-fat prejudice that there has been in society and the media still has a long way to go before it's reversed.
There's a lot of fat blaming going on here.
But how are we supposed to educate the masses if the ones that are supposed to know better don’t even try?
On the other hand, I imagine being told you're fat by a toned adonis isn't particularly helpful.
Regarding the rice and pasta dishes eaten within the countries of the Mediterranean and east Asian countries, they eat lots of veg and salads with these foods. Our way of cooking these dishes is with (probably/possibly) just bung some curry or tomato sauce on the top. or bake with some cheese and tuna.
When I used to cook for a child, the meals were often done in a slow cooker, lots of 'hidden' veg eg carrots, onions, mushrooms, peas and spuds. If I made soup we would play a game of guess the veg and how many veg were in the soup. Meal times were times for chatting and catching up with news of the day, hopefully mealtimes were fun. I think someone once said that food tasted away from the telly or other distractions such as using a phone or tablet was tastier, the brain concentrated on the flavours.
I remembered earlier that our local 'refill' shop sells tiny amounts of herbs and spices for pennies. But the problem is, if you don't learn or are not shown how to cook, then no amount of adding flavours to food would help.
This has been a very interesting thread.
As is clear from this thread, the long history of anti-fat prejudice that there has been in society and the media still has a long way to go before it’s reversed.
Is it? Examples?
I’m not saying for everybody just for most people
Do you have any evidence to support your view?