[Closed] Welsh Cycling president Bill Owen urges bike aggression

Assertiveness yes.
Aggression NO.

Agree with don Simon.
Unfortunatley theere are just as many nobs riding bikes as there are driving cars, it's just people. I try not to do things which bikers as a whole a bad name but see too many examples of others doing stupid things, not me obvioulsy as I'm perfect.
However, the ones in cars are more likely to kill me...

the Don speaks sense.

Assertive rather than aggressive I'd say.

edit...too slow

I think he's damn right.

Agression YES
Assertiveness NO

Mr Owen article is spot on and so is his view/advice

A very good bok to read about cycle assertiveness is CYCLECRAFT,

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/Cyclecraft-John-Franklin/9780117037403

Buy it, read it and ride safer and faster.

Prosecutors need to be more ambitious in their choice of charges when it comes to incidents on the road. A couple of high profile murder convictions and folk's attitudes would soon change.

Road cycling sense is what's needed. So assertiveness and also compliance and manners.

Also, fitness is a bit of an issue. People would be terrified trying to join a motorway in.. I dunno.. a Trabant.. but that's basically how some people have to deal with traffic - they are too slow to ride assertively.

Of course a different approach is needed when you're slow in busy traffic but it's not really taught to anyone. I saw a bloke today in the thick of heavy traffic wobbling slowly from the lights in the wrong gear, and it was quite scary - good job it was me behind him and I gave him a lot of room and time.

I wouldn't go out of my way to be aggressive to other road users unless they had done something that was potentially dangerous but I would quickly calm down and become more rational - such is human nature.

I think it's certainly not a stance the welsh cycling president should take and propose.

Fitness my arse.

I think he's talking out his arse. His research is all wrong too.
Cycling fatalities have been consistently decreasing for the last 30 years despite their use increasing rapidly, particularly over the last ten years.
The more bikes on the roads, the more driver awareness increases and the less accidents occur.

Most accidents don't happen because cyclists aren't assertive enough, they happen because motorists don't see them, no amount of riding in the middle of the road is going to change that.

bit of both it all just depends tbh.
I think improving driver awareness is the key. This needs to be done for cyclists and other motor users.
Where i am the non proper cyclists*, who seem to be the worst, mainly stick to pavements. i rarely see a non lycra clad person cycling tbh so we seem to have fewer problems as they know how to cycle appropriately [generally].

Obviously I am making huge generalisations.

* owns a bike has no knowledge of tyres and logos or n +1

defensive riding is the way forward, that means more than just aggression though.

Even MORE AGGRESSION.

Grrrr.

yes there are very no problems in life that cannot be solved by greater aggression. Perhaps we should scream and shout at cars [ not the parked one with no one in that would be stupid] when waiting at lights - if you are one of those unassertive types who stop that is.

The odd kick at a wing mirror (especially when cleated) helps too.

Prosecutors need to be more ambitious in their choice of charges when it comes to incidents on the road. A couple of high profile murder convictions and folk's attitudes would soon change.

Ummmm......no they wouldn't, hence why murder is still and always will be a reality. No amount of sentencing is going to stop Mr bloggs from 'failing to see' (read, failing to look out for) a cyclist.

The odd kick at a wing mirror (especially when cleated) helps too.

I believe assertive aggression is the only answer
or is it aggressive assertion
.
example: car waiting at lights is flanked at its front wings by two cyclists, car is edging forward and revving its engine to indicate that it wants to be first off the lights, despite the fact that there is a queue of traffic 20m away. both cyclists move in front of car so it CAN NOT PASS. cyclists are full of win.

except they have an aggressive driver behind them who wants to overtake them and is now annoyed i would let them go tbh.

junkyard is not full of win

And what he said:

[i]The call has come from Welsh Cycling president Bill Owen who says cyclists should not be afraid to ride in the middle of the road.[/i]

Absolutely agree with him.

I rarely cycle on the road, except when between 'trails' on my MTB, but I do commute on m/c everyday into London - and riding as though I own (and am judge and jury 😉 ) the road has kept me safe for over 25 years.

but he is not run over or clipped by angry aggressive moronic irrate driver he has just annoyed so he is full of safety 😀

I am never full of win just mediocrity on a bike 😥

IMO far too many cyclist use "apologetic" road positioning trying to get out of cars way instead of "assertive" road positioning.

A lot of cyclists injuries have a contributory factor of poor road positioning that allows cars to make dangerous manouvers

samuri - Member
Most accidents don't happen because cyclists aren't assertive enough, they happen because motorists don't see them, no amount of riding in the middle of the road is going to change that.

I have done 2 led cycle rides in liverpool , and weneeded to cross great howard street a 3 lane 30 mph road, first time 4 lanes open , on a quiet sunday, 35 of us want ing to cros, two cyclists in hi viz stopping trafic, audi driver decides he isnt going to stop, almost carnage.

Then last week same place, but now road works only 2 lanes open and again an audi driver, screams abuse and skids to a halt from well above the speed limit.

Other types of idiot are available driving other brands of vehicle.

Cycling fatalities have been consistently decreasing for the last 30 years despite their use increasing rapidly, particularly over the last ten years.

Samuri, I've heard lots of stuff like this recently, but I'm yet to see any authoritative numbers to back it up. Simply saying "there are fewer cyclist deaths" or even "there are fewer deaths as a percentage of total cyclists" doesn't really tell you anything about the relative risk of cycling as compared to other activities or road-users.

I'm not trolling you here, I would genuinely be fascinated to see some numbers that indicate that cycling is less dangerous than it used to be, or how dangerous it is compared to being a pedestrian, or horse-rider, say - have you (or has anyone else) seen any, and could you link to some stats if you have? (I apologise if this seems to be a stupid question. The figures may be easily available, and I could just be looking in the wrong place; I'll freely admit that I've not spent a huge amount of time researching it.)

Mintimperial. Cycling is safe some data on relative risks

http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1026.html

I think it's telling of both the police and the local authority's attitude that bike lanes are used as parking spaces 24 hours a day in South Manchester. If the same fine applied as does for blocking a bus lane then things might change.

Certainly I feel the biggest risk to cyclists is cutting in and out of parked cars, and if someone is trying to squeeze past both me and a parked car against oncoming traffic it makes me nervous. Got to admit that I don't take particular care about clipping parked cars with pedals or bars in these circumstances.

I'd argue that riding in the middle of the road is an assertive move, not an aggressive one and it really should only be done under specific circumstances, say for example when a right hand turn is round the next blind bend. But I wouldn't agree it makes you more visible normally, it certainly makes you more annoying. I very much doubt cyclists are constantly being knocked off their bikes riding along a straight road, my experience tells me it's junctions where you have to watch out for ****wits.

mintimperial, try this site.[url] http://cyclinginfo.co.uk/blog/cycling/stats-uk/ [/url]. He's not an authorative source but he does reference where he gets the stats from.

Again, my own experience tells me than in particular, in the last five years, driver attitudes to cyclists have improved dramatically. Yes there's still the occasional idiot but on the whole, more room, more sense, less stupid overtaking before junctions, less looking you right in the eye and pulling out. And the more people ride bikes, the more chance a driver will know someone who cycles and I expect conversations with those people changes their attitudes.

One guy across the road hated cyclists, hated them. And he let me know about it too. But gentle explanations, little comments, exposure to an opposing viewpoint rather than his sycophantic mates definately turned that around. I doubt you'll see him on a critical mass ride any time soon but he has admitted that there is a place for bikes on our roads.

At least if he comes across a cyclist meandering along in the middle of the road for no apparent reason, he might actually stop to think about the circumstances rather than blindly flooring it past and filling up his jug of hate.

Without that awareness and education he's never going to understand it.

The figures may be easily available, and I could just be looking in the wrong place; I'll freely admit that I've not spent a huge amount of time researching it.)

DfT and ONS produce authorative annual reports on road casualties that are fairly comprehensive.
2009 is the latest full report (I think 2010 provisional might be available).

Check out http://www2.dft.gov.uk/pgr/statistics/datatablespublications/accidents/casualtiesgbar/index.html

Assertiveness, yes but I usually call it making a stance. I also abide by the rules all the time.

Veering off topic a bit, my town has become bloody dangerous since becoming a cycling town. Too many ad hoc cycle lanes squeezed onto the roads, cycle lanes running the opposite way in one way roads, loads of speed bumps and slippery mini roundabouts and best of all ASLs at lights that can't be activated by a cycle....you have to wait for a car?
Just far too much clutter on the roads. We've now had three compatent cyclists including myself knocked off by cars in two months.

IMO far too many cyclist use "apologetic" road positioning trying to get out of cars way instead of "assertive" road positioning

One person's 'apologetic' would be another man's 'considerate'.

I don't move out to claim road position unless there's a specific reason for doing so - if I feel a car might squeeze past me dangerously, or I need to get right for a junction or something. It's with a firm hand signal and eye contact over the shoulder, and I rarely get grief for it.

Sorry, but all this bickering about assertiveness is mere obfuscation. If you honestly think more assertiveness or agression will make cyclists safer on the roads then you are clearly deluded. The only strategy for increasing cyclist safety that has been shown to work is removing the cars. We need proper universal segregated cycle infrastructure. And until we unite behind this goal cyclists will keep being killed and the only people cycling on the roads will be the die hard and the desperate.

What? Bill Owen? This Bill Owen seen fettling his bike and then riding it padded up

mmmmmmm

The only strategy for increasing cyclist safety that has been shown to work is removing the cars. We need proper universal segregated cycle infrastructure. And until we unite behind this goal cyclists will keep being killed and the only people cycling on the roads will be the die hard and the desperate.

😆

But seriously, this is what we need to be arguing for, and nothing less. It wouldn't just benefit cyclists. It would benefit everyone in society.

Aggressive is not a good word. Don't neccesarily disagree with the argument but "assertive" or "commanding" or similiar does the job without the negative connotations.

TandemJeremy - Member

IMO far too many cyclist use "apologetic" road positioning trying to get out of cars way instead of "assertive" road positioning.

Could not agree more. And I think neatly proved by an awful lot of "A car hit me" stories on teh interwebs. If you look in the comedic Bikeradar commuters forum, there's a constant stream of "I got hit by a car, I heard him behind me and tried to move over but there still wasn't enough space and he hit me when he passed me". Or "I had to swerve out of the gutter to avoid a drain and someone tried to pass me at the same time and hit me". Both just ways of saying "I invited a car to do something stupid, and it did".

Course, it doesn't make it the cyclist's fault, and that also seems to cause confusion... Whose fault was it? I don't care in the slightest, I only care whether or not I get hit!

"I got hit by a car, I heard him behind me and tried to move over but there still wasn't enough space and he hit me when he passed me". Or "I had to swerve out of the gutter to avoid a drain and someone tried to pass me at the same time and hit me". Both just ways of saying "I invited a car to do something stupid, and it did".

I had my first, in recent times, experience of these traffic islands that sit in the middle of the road separating the traffic. I could hear a car behind me, not too close but maybe close enough to try and pass me, I simply moved a bit further from the kerb making it impossible to pass me. After the traffic island, the car passed me without problem, it seemed that the Police trained driver didn't have a problem, so I'll continue with this assertive behaviour.

If you look like a victim, you'll be a victim.

I could hear a car behind me, not too close but maybe close enough to try and pass me, I simply moved a bit further from the kerb making it impossible to pass me

That's called "taking/holding the primary" and is the recommended roadcraft.

Some good advice for new commuters in this guide:
http://www.sillycyclists.co.uk/2011/08/the-essential-guide-for-commuters/

(and some good videos showing how not to do it)

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