Well from my own point of view I see the no vote as a depressing confirmation that any form of radicalism or appetite for real change is dead. It would appear that people living in the western 'democracies' are content to sacrifice any form of influence and self-determination to the political and corporate establishment in return for a just about acceptable standard of living. I can't help but think that they will live to regret it.
good grief! every one of us born in to the western world already won the lottery! you're to55ing it off on the internet, when you could be walking 3 miles back from the nearest contaminated water hole, or abut to die from Ebola.
'impressive turnout' is what i take away from this. goes to show what you can do if you can get people interested. hopefully the politicians will think on.
theres no chance Wales will accept anything less than what Scotland is getting.
I doubt that. I don't think there is much appetite for more Welsh devolution. The current lot are the biggest bunch of incompetent second-raters to ever stick their noses in the trough. Giving them more power to do worse than England isn't an appealing one.
an English parliament which will completely shaft the labour party electorally in England
You're going to have to explain how that one works to me.
Or are you simply referring to this myth:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/well-scotland-didnt-get-independance-thread/page/6?replies=260#post-6325070
'impressive turnout' is what i take away from this. goes to show what you can do if you can get people interested. hopefully the politicians will think on.
I keep wondering how "non-politicians" can make use of that. Sadly the reality is that the general public will still vote for a monkey with a red rosette rather than Fred from the other side of their town who has great ideas and vision, but they've never heard of. How do you get a government of non-politicians who aren't just corporate lackeys, and are actually capable of running a country - more to the point, if such people exist do they want the job?
I don't think there is much appetite for more Welsh devolution.
A fair point, 5e, but I would expect more power would draw more interest and hence better people. Well, hope maybe.
A fair point, 5e, but I would expect more power would draw more interest and hence better people. Well, hope maybe.
To what end? Wales has more state employees than Cuba, and they work for the British state. The Welsh state would have to magic up an awful lot of jobs to start separating itself from England. You'd need a very different type of politician to figure that one out.
EDIT: actually you may have won me over. I look forward to the low tax Free Wales.
aracer - redo your calculation without Welsh MPs and I believe, haven't checked, there are only three post war governments - 45, 97 and 01. That is why it is a horrible conundrum.
Never mind take the blue out of the union flag, take the blue out of the saltire.
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I'm inclined to agree on the Devo Max front with binners.
Had he included it, it would have split the vote all ways, SNP types line up for independence, many folk (me included) g for a degree of self-determination within the Union, the unionists et al plump for No, result chaos.
What's happened is he's saved face for his own lot (Independence or bust) and achieved a belter of a result. Chapeau. He's like a deal of farmers I know, all slow speech and a mild image, then you realise that without appearing to do so, you've signed your granny and all your family over in perpetuity..
Convince the people that they'll be better off under the status quo, even though their living standards and freedoms have been eroded under that system for the past 30 years.
Absolute nonsense
Living standards are [b]spectacularly[/b] better than they where 30 years ago.
Our freedoms are also commensurately greater as we have the money to travel as well as access to so much more information via internet than we had before we are much more able to make up our own minds.
Just a quick question. How long before this all start up again?
a lifetime.
dont know if thats a ned buckie pisshead lifetime or a westminster MP who cycles lifetime?
Salmond has delayed his speech from 10 am to 2pm to 4 pm, either he is the best bluffer in the history of the world or he is facing up to something he did not want to contemplate. I think the baton might be handed on.
Just a quick question. How long before this all start up again?
I reckon 5-10 years. Time for the baby boomers to start dieing off, and a new group of radical young people to get properly organised.
The Welsh state would have to magic up an awful lot of jobs to start separating itself from England.
I'm not advocating separatism, of course.
Lifetime => generation => political generation
Hmmmm......wonder how that would have sounded if the result was the other way round?
Swinney or Strugeon?
Alex Salmond steps down as First Minister of Scotland
leaves the door open for Jimmy Krankie to ascend to their rightful role as First Minister.
My immediate reaction is that this is a shame. Never a particular fan of his, but what would have been good to see was both sides get behind him in holding Westminster to their promises. Whatever his faults, he's probably Scottish politics biggest hitter. If the necessary changes to the UK political landscape come about over time, then he and every Yes voter who put all that pressure on London to loosen their grip on the country will have played a big part in forcing that change.
[i]I reckon 5-10 years. Time for the baby boomers to start dieing off, and a new group of radical young people to get properly organised.[/i]
In your dreams Ben.....50 years minimum!
Does seem a shame him going, he should see through Devo-max first as that will be his real legacy.
I wonder. The leaders of the other delegations to the constitutional meetings will have no love for Salmond, he's managed to upset them all at some point so maybe he's going because he's unable/unwilling to work with the English/Welsh/N.Irish delegates to build a new Union.
If he can't do it then he has to step aside for someone who can do it for all of Scotland.
Ive said before I find him repellent, but watching his speech now I can see he's absolutely broken & I can't help feeling for him.
Ive said before I find him repellent
Can't disagree with that, but you have to admire his as a politician, in a league of his own compared to Westminster.
Of course he is broken....not as broken though as the rest of us, if his deceit and lies had led to a different result. He manipulated the truth in a manner not seen since the € vote. So I hate to see anyone suffer, but hard to feel any sorrow given what we have just been subjected to.
Great politician? - everything lined up for him, a weak opposition and years to prepared. And he decided to resort to deceit and lies. Not even vaguely answering the most basic of questions. Shocking.
I spoke to the prime minister today and, although he reiterated his intention to proceed as he has outlined, he would not commit to a second reading vote by 27th March on a Scotland bill.
Well what a surprise. So in only a few hours the tories are not only back-tracking on promises made, they're turning the issue around to benefit themselves by way of an English parliament. And all along the labour party have been naive and complicit allies.
I reckon 5-10 years. Time for the baby boomers to start dieing off, and a new group of radical young people to get properly organised.
When asked by the BBC's James Cook if his dream of independence is now dead, Mr Salmond says: "I think a referendum is a once in a generation process - that's my opinion."
He goes on to say that he does not envisage another constitutional referendum in the "future we can see".
Apparently he didn't share Ben's optimism.
I reckon 5-10 years. Time for the baby boomers to start dieing off, and a new group of radical young people to get properly organised.In your dreams Ben.....50 years minimum!
Couldn't agree more RockApe and now that the SNP has lost it's only "great ape" and Sturgeon and Salmond are at the helm it's probably never.
Now for that political reinvigoration to ensure that the SNP never hold power in Scotland again. PR will allow tactical voting by us Unionists to make that happen.
Alec is probably looking forward to a career having the mick taken out of him by Ian Hislop on Have I Got New for You. I might start watching it again.
And he decided to resort to deceit and lies. Not even vaguely answering the most basic of questions. Shocking.
There isn't a UK politician alive who doesn't fit that description!
Politics is a game, the aim of which is to get others to agree with you, and anything goes in terms of how you get there.
Well what a surprise. So in only a few hours the tories are not only back-tracking on promises made, they're turning the issue around to benefit themselves by way of an English parliament.
So who's the smart politician?
About bloody time that this was considered in a balanced manner - too long considered as an issue that was only relevant to Scotland. Yes, the three main party leaders panicked. That had no authority to suggest what they did and it is obvious that would have to put to Westminster and the rUK public. Uttterly proper and correct. labour now have a real problem though.
As the BBC, not a single Scottish paper supported him. In the end even the herald saw through him
Alex, take a rest. You and we need it.
and anything goes in terms of how you get there.
Sad reflection on politics. I don't agree.
I think the point people are missing when they say 'in 10 years time a lot of no voters will have died off.' Is that people's opinions change with age. I suspect that a lot of the way the vote went with respect to age has nothing to do with the individuals concerned. 70 year olds will vote the same way in 10 years time as 70 year olds did now.
labour now have a real problem though
For once I agree with you. If Miliband survives this cluster***k I'll be amazed. He and the Labour party have basically campaigned for their own destruction and have been completely played by the tories. Cameron must be giggling into his dubonnet.
That's nonsense footflaps. Most politicians are not renowned deceitful liars. Which is one of the reasons why Tony Blair stands out as a particularly deceitful liar and why he was given the moniker Bliar by some.
So here we have a man who played a key role in bringing about devolution, led his party from being a total mess to running the country (and remains the only majority first minister Scotland has ever had), brought scottish independence closer than anyone outwith the SNP believed possible (and many within it), then had all 3 westminster parties running around like headless chickens, extracted promises for further devolution even though it was ruled out on day 1 of the referendum process, created a campaign that's brought record voter turnouts, and just possibly, planted the seed for a federal UK. And now steps down as party leader at the age of 60.
Yep, what a loser 😆
Apparently there were international observers at the count...
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/19/russia-calls-foul-scottish-referendum
created a campaign that's brought record voter turnouts
But far more of those voters turned out to make sure his ideological vision never happened.
Well NW, you could say that for the Emperor right up until the little boy said, "he's got no clothes on." The end of a political career marked by deceit and no answers to the questions he was preparing for his political lifetime. Came to play with the big boys and was finally exposed.
The biggest irony of the whole thing is that the No side turned it into a worry about uncertainty. That was, at the root, the No campaign - independence is too uncertain. The Labour posters at the polling stations even said "It's not worth the risk"
Now we have a No vote, and what do we have? Massive uncertainty. Cameron is already rolling back on his promises, Miliband has said he won't commit to the plans of more powers for Scotland, we literally have no idea if a Scotland is getting the status quo, more powers, Devo max, federalisation or what.
The No voters were played and good.
And all those people who said "I'd vote for independence but I don't like Alex Salmond" - they must be feeling pretty stupid right now.
The worst thing about the campaign is that bullshit and fear won the day and the people lapped it up, more powers... 😆
I shall point and laugh if I ever hear flower of scotland again, as the tories gain a majority next year and then start systematically destroying scotland.
Ah yes, 'everyone who disagrees with me is stupid'.
Need to work on that graciousness in defeat thing a bit more you two.
seosamh77 - Member
The worst thing about the campaign is that bullshit and fear won the day and the people lapped it up, more powers...
I shall point and laugh if I ever hear flower of scotla
Easy pal, at least wait until we have all had a bottle of wine before that shit starts again.
mon to ****, it's 12 hours and the new powers already lie in tatters! 😆grum - Member
Ah yes, 'everyone who disagrees with me is stupid'.Need to work on that graciousness in defeat thing a bit more you two.
I'm not bitter at westminster or anyone else, just no voters, and I make no apologies for that.
If I was a westminster politician, I'd be pissing myself behind the scenes.
I think Salmond under estimated the intelligence of the 16 to 18yr olds who he gave the vote. I think they saw through him and past all of the rhetoric. They are more outward looking than inward. I also think the Scottish housewife played a major part. I wonder how many voted against their male counterparts once in the booth. Stability is very important when you are running a household and bringing up children etc. There is only so many times you can listen to " A fairer and more just society" as a main policy. There was just no meat to anything he said.
Apart from this process being very devisive I do think a lot of good will come from this over time and hopefully give us all more of a say over the running of our Nation.
Lets just hope we don't get a surge of English Nationalism rearing it's ugly head.
mon to ****, it's 12 hours and the new powers already lie in tatters!
Is there any evidence to suggest that significant numbers of people voted No because of the proposed new powers? Opinion polls generally favoured No before they were ever mentioned.
They voted 70% yes.Inbred456 - Member
I think Salmond under estimated the intelligence of the 16 to 18yr olds who he gave the vote. I think they saw through him and past all of the rhetoric. They are more outward looking than inward.
