I don't know anyone who thought their wedding photos were anything other than crap. £1,500 for some crap photos is poor value for money. I suspect you can get good ones for £15,000 mind.
As a photographer, being pro is no guarantee of quality - most people say it is about 85% business/marketing skills that matter in terms of being able to make a living out of it.
I've only done one wedding so far, and the B+G's verdict was that the pics were '****ing amazing' 😀
I think weddings bay the bills don't they?
Emma - I'd have done the wedding for you! I'd do one for free for the experience, but you'd have to accept the results 🙂
Don't you live in Spain though mol? Feel free to drop by, ours is actually the partner of a work colleague and charging £250, just to take the pressure of family having to try and get snaps for us. We weren't originally going to get one.
Thing is,
MM's excellent post highlights a lot of expenses which perhaps aren't immediately obvious and it goes some way to explaining why it's an expensive service. But.
I don't see as is much different to many other professions. Say, for instance, I want to set myself up as a mechanic. Well, I'll need premises, tools, a garage, and do you know how much a car lift and bay is? Oh, I was thinking of taking six months off in the summer when business is slow too, so I'll have to double my fees to make ends meet. A thousand pounds for a service then sir, I've got to pay my assistant after all?
I take your point, but I'd respectfully suggest that if you choose a profession which only provides work for half of the year, you might consider a second profession for the other half? (-:
I think TBH though, the money people spend on weddings baffles me generally. Three grand might be what you have to pay to get a high-quality professional photographer but, y'know, I think I'd be happier paying 500 quid for a lesser service from moderately talented amateur. Certainly I can think of better ways of spending the other two and a half grand, it'd pay for a fortnight in Florida for a start. When I get married it'll be to get married, not to have a wedding.
Old romantic, me.
This isn't likely in the day of digital SLR camera, but many years ago (in the golden age of actual film) I agreed to do the shoot for the ceremony portion of a friend's wedding. I shot a huge roll of 35mm film and when I took it out of the camera, it had disenged from the winding gear and I had a completely unexposed roll of film. Kind of embarrasing to say the least.
When I get married it'll be to get married, not to have a wedding.
You're a man though, and you won't have any say (thankfully 😉 ).
's probably about right. (-:
I don't see as is much different to many other professions. Say, for instance, I want to set myself up as a mechanic. Well, I'll need premises, tools, a garage, and do you know how much a car lift and bay is? Oh, I was thinking of taking six months off in the summer when business is slow too, so I'll have to double my fees to make ends meet. A thousand pounds for a service then sir, I've got to pay my assistant after all?
And the dealer who charges 55,00€ per hour labour X 8 hours per day work = 440,00€ per day. Now divide the 1.500,00€ into an hourly rate taking into account the event itself, visits beforehand to check out the locations speak to the B&G, editing and mounting in the albums etc...
Last time I sold a car lift it was about 10k, but that was a few years ago. 😉
Don't you live in Spain though mol?
Germany, and only until July 🙂
Grum - That's not necessarily true, I've asked my other halfs opinion and his standard response is 'whatever you want, just remind me what time to turn up and I'll be there'. Nightmare.
Molgrips - Well, feel free to drop by Hereford in august if you want some practice. 8)
Why is that a nightmare? Gives you carte blanche doesn't it?
See, if you were lucky enough to be marrying me, right, you'd be arriving at the church in style.
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In a papier mache helicopter? Presumably on a flatbed lorry?
Because I want his input, it's our day not just mine!
Elfin, you are sadly not that lucky, and you would have to knock me out BA stylie to get me on there
😥
But it cooduv bin so wonderful....
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Oh come on. Elf 'n' safety nightmare ain't it, you of all people should know that!
And the dealer who charges etc
Yeah, there's a reason I don't pay dealer prices for services either...!
A nods as good as a wink to a blind bat....
LOLZ, not a million miles from the truth 😉
Emma, speaking as a blerk, the wedding isn't that massive a deal. He want's it to be perfect for you but only because he loves you. The mechanics of the day are pretty irrelevant, the marriage is the important thing. Good luck 😉
Just as a caveat to my earlier post that's going back 4 years, when u could actually generate income off shooting weddings. The attitude of digital making it easier hence cost should be less / anyone can do it is a misconception. 10 years ago you would shoot 4 rolls of medium format (50 images), £30 of film with processing, negatives in an archive box, prints in a mount album. Technology change equated to a new film stock. The printer also had a larger influence and u would work closely with him / her to get your "look"
Digital, 200-300 images, digital work station, edit, retouch (modern brides don't have blemishes remember) send to album company, archive all images (tiff, raw, edits) on three seperate archives. Photog now IT expert, printer, retoucher jack of all trades.
Digital helps people get it right occasionally if not by letting them know instantly if they've got it wrong, a profesional SHOULD get it right every time (or at least recognize when they don't). The camera is still just a box with a hole, you have to know what it (and light) does to get good results.
Re only working six months, I wish. The entire off season is spent marketing and booking ahead for the following years, often 2 years in advance so they could get the "suitable" venue. Weddings made up 50% of the business model, and was by far and away the less lucrative and time consuming hence giving it away.
And before it gets to inflamed, its not rocket science either, its a few basic principles to capture the image, the best photographers I have worked with have been able to get the most out of the subject, they are the great artists, those that have a bit of business acumen on top ... make great photographers.
Interesting stuff, thanks.
It's not rocket science perhaps, but I'm sure there are less stressful ways to make a living.
I think perhaps the comment that it's "by far and away the less lucrative and [more] time consuming" is kinda where I was coming from. From your point of view it's a ballache and costs you a fortune, from a customer's point of view it's a massive expense for what amounts to some nice photographs. For the photographer there's better ways of earning money, for the B&G there's better ways of spending it. Maybe.
Either way, it's a fascinating insight into what's involved. Makes me wonder what other professions could benefit from a show & tell.
Still think photography has its place, when we lost the MIL it was those that became most treasured, and heaven forbid anything happen to our own wedding album!
Think the issue for me was the clients expectation of having the same quality as what we produced, but at the same cost as mr / mrs "£500 for the dvd" and those same mr /mrs touting the "he's ripping you off we can do it for much less" marketing approach.
Fitting analogy would be someone walking into the LBS, plonking £100 on the counter and saying "I want a bike for megavalanche and tesco sell bikes for £100 so don't bother trying to rip me off"
They may get to the bottom of the hill on it, with teeth intact but that's through good luck rather than good measure.
[b]Photog now IT expert[/b], printer, retoucher jack of all trades.
You'll get flamed for that. 😉
Digital helps people get it right occasionally if not by letting them know instantly if they've got it wrong, a profesional SHOULD get it right every time (or at least recognize when they don't).
100% agree.
mr / mrs "£500 for the dvd" and those same mr /mrs touting the "he's ripping you off we can do it for much less" marketing approach.
You've entered into the world from the customers point of view. If I may take the example of your MIL, are the memories affected by the fact it's a well composed and executed photo? Or would any old snap evoke the same memories. The customers just can not see the work behind a photo.
I work alongside a "professional" photographer who has the top of the range Nikon, 11fps shooting capability and he uses that capability to the max. How many crap photos is he taking just to get one good one? And more inportantly does the viewing public know or care?
Either way, it's a fascinating insight into what's involved. Makes me wonder what other professions could benefit from a show & tell.
Web disigners and the IT world? Is that a profession though? 😉
Web disigners and the IT world?
WebDev is a very good case in point. Teaching would be another.
WebDev is a very good case in point.
Business-to-business is an entirely different model. Paying £1500 for a couple of days work that produces a thick document is fine.
Selling that to the public, when a mate can do something similar for free is, very different.
WebDev is a very good case in point. Teaching would be another.
Teachers don't try and charge a couple of grand to impart information, we do it for the warm feeling of helping fellow human beings improve themselves, whereas a web designer will tell you that you'll need to spend 1.000s on the mysterious art of webdev and only paying a couple of hundred is a complete waste of time. The search function might help on this, or give me 200quid and I'll find the thread for you. 😀
Teaching, I would say, is the complete opposite in that we are underpaid and under valued.
Thanks everyone, plenty for me to read through!!
With regard to the happy couple it's certainly not that they aren't bothered about pictures but I don't think they appreciate the sentimental importance of having a nice album of pictures. They were expecting friends and family to take snaps and be done at that but my Wife was keen to ensure they have a few more structured photos on the basis that at least then they wouldn't regret not having had them done.
on this basis the expectation of my work isn't high but I'd still like to do the best I can for them. I'll work through some of the ideas as I reckon they'll help me get more out of my camera generally.
Thinking about it one of the things I'd like to get to grips with is having the right amount of light on people's faces, this is something I generally struggle with as a lot of the photos I take of my children end up with very bright faces from the internal flash or dark shadows from having the flash off.
Because I want his input, it's our day not just mine!
You have his input! He is telling you that none of it matters to him. If I were you I'd be flattered - the main thing (ie you) outshines any amount of flowers and canapes.
Thinking about it one of the things I'd like to get to grips with is having the right amount of light on people's faces, this is something I generally struggle with as a lot of the photos I take of my children end up with very bright faces from the internal flash or dark shadows from having the flash off.
That's where you have to control the camera by taking light readings for the flesh tones and not the surroundings, as the camera will do in auto setting, and that means getting to grips with manual settings and spot metering.
Teaching, I would say, is the complete opposite in that we are underpaid and under valued.
Point is that everyone thinks that teachers only work when they're in school and get get big fat breaks over summer.
Selling that to the public, when a mate can do something similar for free is, very different.
Sounds pretty similar to me. "Why should I pay you £x for this when my 12-year old has FrontPage?"
Or just getting people to stand in the right place perhaps?
Just as a caveat to my earlier post that's going back 4 years, when u could actually generate income off shooting weddings.
There's lots of people still making a decent living out of (mostly) shooting weddings.
Point is that everyone thinks that teachers only work when they're in school and get get big fat breaks over summer.
I work in the private sector so a little different.
Or just getting people to stand in the right place perhaps?
Was that aimed at me? That is a perfectly acceptable answer as there is always more than one way to skin a cat. Some methods are more practical than others though.
There's lots of people still making a decent living out of (mostly) shooting weddings.
Probably by charging bucket loads for doing and providing high quality pics, which as you know is not so easy.
Was that aimed at me?
No, the op. It's a relevant technique at a wedding I feel 🙂
No, the op
OK. 😳
@ MightyMarmite - thanks for putting across just what's involved from our side of things - I had wondered when this thread would descend into '**** me, how much', as it has done on so many occasions before, and had planned to do as you did - put it facts and figures out there in out there in black and white (or sepia, or colour, sorry, NO spot colouring... 🙂 ) - bottom line for me is that my 'Day Rate' (when you take into account time taken - 4 days approx in total on meetings, pre-wed shoot, full day wedding, editing, client visits re: album design, and taking out over head and album costs etc etc) = around £200 a day, before tax etc etc. NICE! I hear folk say - maybe, if you're working, and getting paid for a huge chunk of the year but, weddings are largely seasonal (that's changing a bit as venues realise they can bring folk in off season at lower rates and couples are going for that - getting the 'venue of their dreams' for less and hoping for a 'winter wonderland' result!)
Put another way, my local plumbers and electrician charge a similar day rate and all they do is 'push plastic pipe bits together' or 'screw wires into boxes'
Right, back top editing a shoot.... 😀
This has been a most interesting topic.
I wonder if people who are suggesting 'just go buy a cheap big aperture lens' have any idea how much some lens cost, or indeed the price of the cameras/lenses the pros generally use.
Just for fun some of the prices for some of the equipment (note if there is a 2nd shooter they will have additional kit) there will be lots of other gear in addition to this stuff and flashes can be several hundred pounds each as well:
[b]Canon EOS 5D Mark II [/b]- body only, no lens included [b]£ 1789.00[/b]
most photographers would have 2 of these or an even dearer medium format (I think those are around £8000 plus each).
Canon [b]50mm f1.4[/b] USM Lens [b]£ 309.00 [/b]
(the 1.8 is much cheaper at under £100 but the plastic lens mount is unlikely to take heavy pro work)
Canon [b]70-200mm f2.8L[/b] USM Lens [b]£ 1069.00[/b]
Canon [b]85mm f1.2 L[/b] USM II Lens [b]£ 1829.00[/b]
Canon [b]16-35mm f2.8L[/b] USM II Lens[b]£ 1239.00[/b]
Canon [b]70-200mm f2.8L[/b] IS USM II Lens [b]£ 1999.00[/b]
Unfortunately, even with all that kit most wedding photos are disappointing.
A mate with a £300 camera can exceed expectations for free.
It's not about the kit.
It's about coming up with the goods in a pressured situation, dealing with people, managing setbacks, having a seamless backup plan for when things go wrong (which they will), making the experience an enjoyable part of the day for the happy couple... all that stuff.
The gear's important to the extent that better kit opens up more options and delivers better results... but [i]only if you know how to use it[/i]. Knowing when to hold the button down and when to squeeze off a single shot, understanding when to trust AF and when not, knowing the limitations of your lenses, being able to think on your feet and do all this while working with many people who regard you largely as a fly on the wall rather than an invited guest. You can't buy that stuff. You have to earn it.
What's that often-quoted statistic about the number thousands of hours it takes to get really good at something? Melting some plastic is no substitute for time on the job. Good wedding pros earn their fees, and then some 🙂
I wonder if people who are suggesting 'just go buy a cheap big aperture lens' have any idea how much some lens cost, or indeed the price of the cameras/lenses the pros generally use.
Um yes I do thanks. 🙄
(the 1.8 is much cheaper at under £100 but the plastic lens mount is unlikely to take heavy pro work)
Yeah but the OP isn't talking about 'heavy pro work' is he.
A mate with a £300 camera can exceed expectations for free.
Maybe, but maybe not. If your mate's £300 camera doesn't work for some reason, or he forgot to charge the batteries last night, then what? Depends how important it is to you of course, but the idea of getting a pro and paying top whack is that they can pretty much [i]guarantee[/i] good results in pretty much any circumstances.
while working with many people who regard you largely as a fly on the wall rather than an invited guest.
Surely as a pro that's exactly what you are? Or are you just a really popular guy 😉
I like the few spot coloured images we have. I find it amusing that the pros on here who've mentioned it said emphatically that they wouldn't do it. Is that because it's a bit of a cheesy technique? Does it matter if your customer will like it?
I've no real interest in photography so probably would struggle to tell the difference between good and bad shots anyway. I suspect if they're honest the majority of couples are the same. Perhaps I should put a couple of our pics up here for the pros to criticise 😆
Is that because it's a bit of a cheesy technique? Does it matter if your customer will like it?
it's crass, people who get a dodgy copy of photoshop like to show off their skills with this innovative technique.
but if your visually unaware customer desires it then it would be foolish to deny them.
I like the few spot coloured images we have
On that tangent, I thought the earlier shot of the colourised girl inbetween three monochrome ones was fantastic from an artistic and technical point of view, but diabolically bad as a photo I'd ever want to show anyone. "Yes, here's a picture of me, with three unimportant people... no, I forget their names now..."
No disrespect to the photographer but why a client would ever request something like that is beyond me. Spot-coloured against a background sure, but against your family and friends? Arrogant much?
Is that because it's a bit of a cheesy technique? Does it matter if your customer will like it?
I think most professionals wouldn't like to put out anything that they don't feel is up to scratch aesthetically, even if the client likes it.
most photographers would have 2 of these or an even dearer medium format (I think those are around £8000 plus each).
you are looking at£10-£20k for a digital back. another £10k will get you a body and 2-3 lenses.
