[Closed] website costs

MF - they were not. I was there, you were not.

simple as. They were really difficult to find and buy. I know I did it

Boots yes, oxblood yes, colours stitching yes, plain black - no

You cannot correct me on something I did at a time you were a child.

You were there. Agreed.

I was also there. Agreed?

I repeat...

don simon - Member

Could one of you business gurus tell me what 'brand' refers to?
.

Has anyone said 'solely' because of the brand? It is just one of the many reasons why people make the choices they do.

And the answer to my question is because brand is simply a synonym for name and every product has a name and as I said previously the buying process is not simple.

What I think you guys are trying to defend so vociferously is brand image. So based on this, possible misconception,
TJ did buy a brand and that brand was Dr Martens what he didn't buy was the skinhead image or the working boot image that the brand marketing image people (or whatever they're called) wanted.
I can think of some other successful images like denim jeans as working clothes and not the fashion item they are today. You'll forget the first mistake and bask in the glory of the rebranding.
Or EasyJet?
As I see the imaging question, it is just a crock, isn't it? The Marlboro Cowboy would back me up if her hadn't died of lung cancer. Not quite the same image as the freedom of the US of A.
Or the obesity generated by eating too much junk food as they are trying to emulate the youn, thin, beautiful people portrayed as part of the image of the company.
Or maybe your thinking of the green and yellow flower being used in the logo of that famously environmentally friendly company, British Petroleum.
All just lies. 😉

I buy the cheapest from my local shop. That is not a marketing led decision in any way or form. The branding has no bearing on my decision

You have to find some to justify your meainingless jobs and lives

MF - I buy the cheapest per unit weight from my nearest shop. Thats a simple decision based on cost and convenience and nowt to do with marketing

You may know the story of the emporers new clothes but you ignore the lesson in it.

Damo the branding has no bearing on my decision. None, zero. Zilch

I buy the cheapest from my local shop. That is not a marketing led decision in any way or form. You have to find some to justify your meainingless jobs and lives

Let me give you an example of how marketing and branding works.

You admit you just buy the cheapest and are not influenced by brands. Therefore you are a segment that can be targeted.

In Tescos (or any other FMCG retailer) marketing department some years ago:

Marketing person 1: "I reckon there's a segment out there that just wants the cheapest, isn't interested in quality and thinks they're unaffected by brands"

Marketing person 2: "you're right, lets buy in some cheap products and price them below the brand leaders"

Marketing person 3: "great idea, because the segment thinks they are uninfluenced by brands lets just brand them very simply, how about we call them Tesco Value"

Damo the branding has no bearing on my decision. None, zero. Zilch

I buy the cheapest from my local shop. That is not a marketing led decision in any way or form. You have to find some to justify your meainingless jobs and lives

Let me give you an example of how marketing and branding works.

You admit you just buy the cheapest and are not influenced by brands. Therefore you are a segment that can be targeted.

In Tescos (or any other FMCG retailer) marketing department some years ago:

Marketing person 1: "I reckon there's a segment out there that just wants the cheapest, isn't interested in quality and thinks they're unaffected by brands"

Marketing person 2: "you're right, lets buy in some cheap products and price them below the brand leaders"

Marketing person 3: "great idea, because the segment thinks they are uninfluenced by brands lets just brand them very simply, how about we call them Tesco Value"

😆 I had to spend a whole day being taught "How to make yourself a brand."
I think the course leader (I can't use the word teacher) was used to naive, optimimistic uni graduates not hard bitten cynical middle age techies.

The biscuits were good. The closest I've come to branding myself was on the oven.

😳 double post.

Damo the branding has no bearing on my decision. None, zero. Zilch

I buy the cheapest from my local shop. That is not a marketing led decision in any way or form. You have to find some to justify your meainingless jobs and lives

Let me give you an example of how marketing and branding works.

You admit you just buy the cheapest and are not influenced by brands. Therefore you are a segment that can be targeted.

In Tescos (or any other FMCG retailer) marketing department some years ago:

Marketing person 1: "I reckon there's a segment out there that just wants the cheapest, isn't interested in quality and thinks they're unaffected by brands"

Marketing person 2: "you're right, lets buy in some cheap products and price them below the brand leaders"

Marketing person 3: "great idea, because the segment thinks they are uninfluenced by brands lets just brand them very simply, how about we call them Tesco Value"

I buy the cheapest from my local shop. That is not a marketing led decision in any way or form.

You have to find some to justify your meainingless jobs and lives

So can anyone actulolly put any meaning to this guff?
"Brand communication"
"talk to their customers through their website",
"Brand message"

No one yet has given me any explanation of the meaning of these phrases

Can I do it tomorrow I'm off home now? 🙂

Posty seem to have got lost 🙁

MF - I suggest you read the emperors new clothes and learn the lesson from it

as for my beans purchase. Cheapest per unit weight from my nearest seller of them.

No marketing / branding / advertising in that decision at all. None. Nada. No matter what the brand is I would do the same. My local supermarket changed recently from one brand to another - guess what? i do the same thing when buying beans I buy the cheapest.

TJ,

How did you arrive at STW?

Did a friend "recommend" the website?

Did you pick up the STW mag in a shop? Why did you pick it up? Nice pretty picture on the front? (Thank the marketing dept. for that)

Did you find the website from an online search engine? Perhaps Google?

(Branding, marketing, and all that 'rubbish' associated with it... does actually work on you....)

TJ,

How did you arrive at STW?

Did a friend "recommend" the website?

Did you pick up the STW mag in a shop? Why did you pick it up? Nice pretty picture on the front? (Thank the marketing dept. for that)

Did you find the website from an online search engine? Perhaps Google?

(Branding, marketing, and all that 'rubbish' associated with it... does actually work on you....)

what is happening to posts, page 5 is broken. Odd glitch this. Did they pay £600 for this forum? 😉

Taken from another thread

TandemJeremy - Member

I know its been done but I had a search and couldn't find anything.

Before I buy a set of [b]ortleibs [/b]is there anything else I should look at? T'missus don't like the ortleibs because they have no pockets - I think they are a bit heavy. [b]However they have a great reputation[/b]. I can just about cope with the cost.

Must be big and strong with good fixings, Front and rear wanted

caradice? They do some similar to the ortleib

Anyone else?

Ta

You appear to be looking at two established Brands there?

Why not fashion your own out of hemp?

Just get the cheapest from a local shop?

Use a couple of old plastic bags?

as for my beans purchase. Cheapest per unit weight from my nearest seller of them.

Let me give you an example of how marketing and branding works.

Are we talking about a brand (simply a name), brand image as [url= http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/website-costs/page/4#post-2154556 ]phil.w[/url] described or marketing?

I do so love the way you keep ascribeing motivations to me that I do not have

And MF you were not there or you would know what you are saying is guff. You were a child.

Phil - yes its rude. Sorry. Its also the truth

you guys spend your working lives selling the emperor his new clothes and have to attempt to justify it. Well some of us see tright thru you and yo don't half get angry and defensive when this happens - resoretring to utter goibbledegook

Marketing person 3: "great idea, because the segment thinks they are uninfluenced by brands lets just brand them very simply, how about we call them Tesco Value"

Classic example of the emperors new clothes

I do not buy tesco value because they are tesco value. I buy the cheapest because they are the cheapest. I care not one jot what is on the label

what is happening to posts, page 5 is broken. Odd glitch this. Did they pay £600 for this forum?

No, I think they asked for a forum that works and the designers gave them one that doesn't. 😉

hhmmm ... interesting ... 🙂

Website can be designed/made in other part of world but maintain locally. Simple.

If everything is designed & maintained locally then you can kick their arses if something goes wrong.

🙂

Tiger - yes they are brands, however my decision was not based on branding or marketing but on an objective appraisal of the function and cost

your meainingless jobs and lives

all of the respect i had for you for sticking to your guns in various other threads is now gone... i'm sure this doesn't matter to you one bit as you're so important and obviously never influenced by anything in the world other than your own amazing decisions based on nothing but the expert knowledge you hold on every subject... but its the internet and i feel that its something i want to express.

I care not one jot what is on the label

You see we all know this is untrue. TJ is pointedly ignoring his pwning by Tiger6971 up there.

But you might as well go on about it till you're blue in the face. He can't admit that there are major chinks in his armour...a case of the emperor losing some of his own clothes...as it were.

what is happening to posts, page 5 is broken. Odd glitch this. Did they pay £600 for this forum?

😆 ah that made me chuckle.

TJ, so when your supermarket changed, was the cheapest brand beans the same price as previously?

I guess at least you noticed it had changed, probably becasue of the new style branding to those value beans... mmm yummy beans.

I still do not beleive you are unaffected by brands, and I am sure some trawling of the many many many posts you have made on the forum would back this up. Alas I do not care enough to prove that but I am sure you will contradict yourself on another thread soon enough. 🙂

The 'web designers' I know and have worked with haven't a bloody clue about aesthetics and regional markets. They just make websites work

Those aren't Web Designers, they're Web Developers. Big difference.

TJ, have you considered Heinz beans? They're much nicer than the Tesco Value ones. Perhaps if you weren't so brand loyal, you'd have discovered a better product.

And MF you were not there or you would know what you are saying is guff. You were a child.

you guys spend your working lives selling the emperor his new clothes

Okay, I am going home right now but I do hope we can carry this one on for a while as I am really enjoying what is being said so far.

Catch you all later.

This is beautiful so many folks are so taken in with the business bullcrap that the terminology is getting confused and the argument changing to satisfy a need.
😆

Oh what a silly lot you are.

I have been asking this for hours.

So can anyone actulolly put any meaning to this guff?
"Brand communication"
"talk to their customers through their website",
"Brand message"

No one yet has given me any explanation of the meaning of these phrases

It really does entertain me that you all so believe that I am affected by marketing.

TJ, so when your supermarket changed, was the cheapest brand beans the same price as previously?

I have no idea. I simply bought the cheapest in my nearest shop.

MF - you may have had the shoes but I know they were not a fashion item where I was as they were almost impossible to find and no one was wearing them.

deadlydarcy - Member

I care not one jot what is on the label

You see we all know this is untrue. TJ is pointedly ignoring his pwning by Tiger6971 up there.

No Pwning at all. Yes they are brands but that did not influence my decision at all. What influenced my decision was the experiences of others and the cost / utility trade off. Ie performance not image.

Anyone who knows me knows how little i care about branding or image.

Pleased to report that my haircut hasn't gone too badly, considering. I usually end up looking like someone with mental health problems. Now I just look like someone who's getting treatment.

So can anyone actulolly put any meaning to this guff?
"Brand communication"
"talk to their customers through their website",
"Brand message"

No one yet has given me any explanation of the meaning of these phrases

Go on then, I'll have a go.
[i]Brand communication[/i] - its about getting across the message that the stuff the company sells is what the customer wants or needs. Around that is a load of psychology around perceived value, keeping up with the Joneses, being the coolest kids on the block. Its why they employ folk like Beckham to wear the brands he does.

[i]
talk to their customers through their website[/i] - an example of this is Howies. They put all the lifestyle stuff on their on the basis that if you buy some of their clothes, you'll be as cool as them. It could also mean a way of getting feedback on what they do. Polls, questionnaires, opportunities to comment on blogs etc.

[i]brand message[/i] - see [i]Brand Communication[/i]

What you have to remember TJ, is that not everyone is as [i]clever[/i] as you are. There are many folk who [i]fall[/i] for all this. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different.

HTH

So you never see an advert in a magazine or on TV and think "Hmm that sounds interesting, might give that a try" or do you read the which reviews for the best tasting / value baked beans?
Im not so sure im that perfect TJ, but I see nothing wrong with being exposed to products, you dont HAVE to buy them!

EDIT: What's the point

So can anyone actulolly put any meaning to this guff?
"Brand communication"
"talk to their customers through their website",
"Brand message"

Okay, I'll bite on this one.

Brand communication - trying to reach out to your target audience and try to get them to perceive that they are similar to yourself. Rolls Royce are a luxury brand, bet there isn't a flakey out-of-focus image on their site. Maybe something like fashion clothing have a little more 'edge' to their site.

Talk to their customers through their website - this is the wording/tone used. How it is used often conveys certain conscious and subconscious attributes. For example, an NHS website may try to be reassuring and concise about illness, treatments etc. - you wouldn't really want to look up heart attack on the NHS website and get a response "init, ths is like what my granny, like had, you know. Git big pain down your arm. You is dead, man". Rolls Royce will try to be professional etc., maybe MBR website might be a bit more "down with the kids" type speak.

If it's you only form of communicating with your (potential) customer then people do actually take how they portray themselves very seriously.

Again, brand message is related to the above - NHS is a professional organisation that you can trust with your health. Even your uniform is part of that 'brand'. You don't wear jeans, Ramones t-shirt etc. for work (even if clean) do you? Do I trust this airline to fly me safely from A to B?

Basically all three are trying to portray what is good about your company to someone.

You're getting too tied up in your own [s]importance[/s] non-brand feelings. Do you never walk into a restaurant, think this is terrible, the wallpapers hanging off the walls, just seen the chef outside having a fag coughing his guts up etc? The food might be the best in the world but you probably don't hang around to find out. Thats a physical representation of the company, if you don't have any bricks and motar as such then it has to be portrayed on your website.

If you had a business you would need to promote it right tj? So that people might decide to use your product or service over theirs. Simply selling the cheapest beans would not mean people would buy them. They would need to be aware of your brand of beans. Whether you those to create this brand awareness by telling everyone they were magic beans or the cheapest beans around you would still have create brand awareness to make your business a success.

Ah, geoff got there before me.

bigyinn - Member

So you never see an advert in a magazine or on TV and think "Hmm that sounds interesting, might give that a try" or do you read the which reviews for the best tasting / value baked beans?

Occasional new concept yes. Something I have never heard of before. I can't think of an example right now tho. Otherwise no. Never ever for a difference between two similar products.

I simply don't play the consumerist game at all.

geoffj

Nice go at teh explanations. Still rather meaning free tho.

What you have to remember TJ, is that not everyone is as clever as you are. There are many folk who fall for all this. That doesn't make them wrong, it just makes them different.

Now I think I detect a touch or sarcasm in there however you hit on a real point

MF and his cohorts believe this guff works for everyone when infact it only works on the gullible and easily led. They have no understanding that some folk see marketing for what it is - designed to create a need. Hence MF has a prious and I don't own a car. If ever there was a triumph of branding and marketing the Pruis is it - along with oakleys and Howies

If you had a business you would need to promote it right tj? So that people might decide to use your product or service over theirs. Simply selling the cheapest beans would not mean people would buy them. They would need to be aware of your brand of beans. Whether you those to create this brand awareness by telling everyone they were magic beans or the cheapest beans around you would still have create brand awareness to make your business a success.

I would assume that the business owner would have done some market research to determine that he has a product that people want and who the pèople are, before even beginning the business. Then, if there is a viable market, market it. So brand awareness is another word for marketing then? Which is not the same as brand or brand image... 🙄

Please explain how you choose the items you buy tj. Clothes for example, how do you choose which shop to buy jeans from... I have this feeling you will just say closeness/cheapest. :$

1. TandemJeremy is not normal. Even if he weren't influenced by marketing or branding, it wouldn't make them useless.

2. TandemJeremy can't admit to being wrong, or it'd change what people think of TandemJeremy. TandemJeremy has to protect his brand image on STW 🙂

Brand awareness is part of marketing a product.. Shirley.

TJ... if you are completely unaffected by brands and branding, not marketing here mind, why do you keep going back to DMs? Or every time you go shopping for new shoes you try on all the other pairs available, and then go back to DMs because they really are the comfiest? Or do you just buy them "because they last well and are conmfy when on my feet for 12 hrs".

You have built up in your mind a brand image, an idea that DMs are comfy and long lasting, as that is what you said earlier in the thread.

You buy DMs because they are DMs, because the brand says to you that they are long lasting and comfy.

Simples.

Anyway, just curious mind...

:oD

Are we talking about a brand (simply a name), brand image as phil.w described or marketing?

I explained earlier what a brand was but you seem to have ignored it. A brand is not just a name. A name is exactly that a name, it gets used in a logo, maybe you have some company colours, a font, a style to your advertising, sign written vans, a certain piece of hold music, different products for different price points, staff uniforms, i could go on and on - but either you get the point or you never will - this all makes up the brand.

Brand awareness is exactly that - making people aware of you brand and...actually sorry I'm bored with this bye...

Has anyone thought of that Bill Hicks monologue yet?

Those aren't Web Designers, they're Web Developers. Big difference.

Oh right ok, I better tell them that then, so's they can change their job descriptions...

This is beautiful so many folks are so taken in with the business bullcrap that the terminology is getting confused and the argument changing to satisfy a need.

Industries like this love to invent high-faluting sounding terminology and descriptions for things. Bit like 'horticultural engineer' instead of 'gardener'. I mean, 'graphic design'- it's just drawing stuff and colouring in! 🙂

Transport Operative- bus/train driver.
Hygiene Management Specialist - cleaner.
Member of Parliament - freeloading scumbayg.
Interior Designer - cushion arranger.
Consumer Experience Facilitator - shop assistant.

Etc.

Is this thread broken?

TJ - you lived in Scotland, not Outer Mongolia. Black DM shoes were very popular when I was at Secondary School. In fact, much more so than the red ones.

So brand awareness is another word for marketing then?

No, marketing is a two way process.

I just realised I confused MF with molgrips [i]again[/i] over the Prius

sorry chaps ( just in case the missing posts reappear}

The Labour Party is a 'Brand'

along with oakleys

C'mon Teej - don't be daft. They offer a technically superior product to others irrespective of any marketing. It is plain to see as a long term user of the products myself and suffering from rubbish eyes i simply will not buy other sunglasses as nothing else i have tried work as well. You can choose to ignore the marketing (i think this is the point you are making) but they produce an ace product.

.

So does TJ believe that everyone else in the whole world is an idiot?

This thread has got no better since I put the girls to bed. Anyway, where were we?

The Labour Party is a 'Brand'

Russel is a Brand. 😆

phil.w I was accepting your definition as a definition of brand image, but not brand, but I guess you were too busy trying to defend yourself that thinking wasn't important.

Brand awareness is part of marketing a product.. Shirley

don simon Ba(hons) Business Management and lots of experience. 😈

Ahh yes, brands...

It is with interest I note that TJ has asked about the relative benefits of two clothing brands. Neither brand I have ever heard of incidentally. Of course this will be because those two clothing brands have clearly identified their target markets and they talk to the people their research shows to be their customers. Clearly TJ is a potential customer for the brand and their marketing has made him aware of them.

Now there are obviously many other people who share the same interests as TJ and some of those have been taken in by the brand and the persona it has and actually bought something.

But not TJ, ohh no, he won't be taken in by evil marketing so instead he asks around and gets opinion on what are the best products and he happens to ask people that believed the marketing hype. Now why shouldn't he believe them, after all they are peers, they share common interests so the products they chose must be the right ones for TJ.

Of course, these people haven't extensively tested anything, they just identified with the brand. Of course TJ doesn't know this, he has assumed they were right because he trusts their judgement, being a like-minded person and all.

So the nett result is the brand won - they sold to one punter who then passively sold their brand message to another.

Aren't they evil?

Q.E.D.
Please stop confusing brand (name) with brand image! 🙄 Or at least have a bit of continuity.

I am not being mutually exclusive in the choice of the word 'brand' it is a collective term to describe activities employed by businesses to make money.

Brand was a word that was used to promote jobs that don't really exist. Like most business and most jobs in business it's bullcrap, I'm part of this bullcrap. What I do can be done by anyone with a bit of nouse, but if I give it a fancy name I become specialñ and can charge a premium. The activities employed by businesses to make money is called business and is basically the 4Ps.
Unless you can satisfy the 4Ps, or at least 3, you're blagging the customer and brand doesn't fit there, sorry.

Bu66er! Don't feed the hamsters, feed them to the local reptile house and get some new ones!

Maybe the server would work better if there weren't so many double posts.... 😉

and and gets opinion on what are the best products and he happens to ask people that believed the marketing hype

An you have a 'Brand Advocate' a marketeers dream, the ultimate punter, the very top of the Brand Engagement Pyramid.

What exactly is this engagement of which you speak?

In my experience there are probably three types of people in business.
1. Those who are happy pushing pencils/keys and are happy in their position and get on with it.
2. Those who think they are better than they really are and hide behind jargon, simply because they're insecure.
3. Those who have the ability and rise to the top, who are generally top people with nothing to prove.

Which one are you? 😉

Not sure who that is directed at nor the point of the question in regard to any relevance to the original post.

So, are there any examples of products that are successful without being subject to the whole marketing/branding thing?

Crikey - that would be very difficult to identify. Perhaps Howies early on? But at the end of the day, they all exist to make money so all spend money developing an identity for their target audience to identify with in one way or another.

I think I might have to respectfully disagree with this;

[i]so all spend money developing an identity for their target audience to identify with in one way or another.[/i]

I think many firms/companies/makers of stuff in the past just made things to the best of their ability and priced them accordingly and sold them because they were a good product. It's a sad state of affairs when you have to 'market' your 'brand' to your 'target audience' rather than just make good stuff.

Hey ho, maybe I'm getting old.

You hit the nail on the head with 'in the past'.

If a company existed now and just hoped people would buy their great products, they would soon disappear or just exist as a niche business with a small customer base as there will always be another business spending money marketing themselves.

Not sure who that is directed at nor the point of the question in regard to any relevance to the original post.

If that's at me, it was directed at the general level of jargon being spouted on here. Relevance to OP, very little as the thread has moved from web design to branding to marketing to branding to defending branding and all sorts of crap.
Also, have you considered that the OP was simply a troll?

I think I hit the nail on the head with 'sad state of affairs'.

It would appear that the number of people involved in the actual production of quality stuff is dwarfed by the number of people we 'need' to sell it.

Not really 'progress' is it?

Don simon true - this thread has wandered somewhat.

If the OP was a troll it was a good one 🙂

So, are there any examples of products that are successful without being subject to the whole marketing/branding thing?

Without marketing, probably not. Without branding, go figure.
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And yes, I AM AWESOME. The sooner you realise, the better.

Perhaps not, but it is what it is.

One of the better ones. Didnt you realise after he stepped away from the debate???

It's a sad state of affairs when you have to 'market' your 'brand' to your 'target audience' rather than just make good stuff.

No no no, you have rose tinted specs on there mate. Marketing goes back a looong way. In fact it was even worse 100 years ago then now - people made up all sorts of wild claims to make out that their stuff was the best when it wasn't.

The real issue is that there often isn't one best product. How would you advertise say Coke? You either like it or you don't, right? Or do you? Can you influence people to like your beverage more than another? What about say, orange juice? Surely all orange juice is basically the same.

Supermarkets are a good example. They all sell basically the same stuff the same way. What they have done is position themselves at slightly different parts of society, and they do it via different kinds of marketing and advertising.

Look at the adverts on telly. All adverts are for a very small selection of different types of product. Why would that be?

Perhaps not, but it is what it is.

It's the modern way of doing business that has brought us to the current crisis as there is more competition, less real innovation and business leaders demand more.
I had an interesting chat with a director at Samsung S.A. last week regarding this, if we finish the chat next week I'll report my findings, but his point of view was quite interesting and you'll be surprised to find I didn't fully agree. 😉

less real innovation

Rubbish!

I do like a well constructed argument, if I had a hat on i'd take it off.