MOlgrips - now look at an urban journey comparison Netherlands / UK thats where the bikes are used
The problem with cars is that they’re brilliant when you have one and terrible when everyone has one!
Around here everyone does have a car. Well 80% of household, many of which have 2 or 3 cars. They are still brilliant. The only less brilliant feature is commuting to a 9-5 job in the city centre as it gets a bit congested. Luckily those suburb to city centre trips during the day is what public transport does well. So many people with cars choose the train/bus for those journeys
Public transport does not do random start/finish point journeys late at night or early morning.
I think it's better to compare against France and Germany rather than the Netherlands, because they have more recently started to really encourage cycling...
Gosh, it's quite remarkable how crap our cycling infrastructure is when you scroll around Europe's towns and cities on Google Maps using the "cycling" view, then scroll over to the UK.
Around here everyone does have a car. Well 80% of household, many of which have 2 or 3 cars. They are still brilliant.
I take it you don't have kids, who have no option but to stay in the house because it's the thing that's now statistically most likely to kill them?
I find it incredibly sad that the vast majority of kids today cannot experience the freedoms and independence that we had growing up.
That's a lousy translation by Forbes. "Cyclable" does not translate to cycling. It just means you can ride a bike there. Which if you can put up with the poor infrastructure, pollution, bike theft, hostile road users... it already is. Not much is going to change in the next four years but hoepfully it will be better.
I've ridden in both Paris and Berlin in the last year, they're really not nice places to ride a bike and that isn't going to change unless they:
put a Stop sign for cars at every intersection of a bike path and road
Have a solid barrier separating every bike path and road big enough to stop a monster 4x4.
Have millions of secure bike storage places all over the city. This can be achieved by converting at least 50% the car parking into bike parking with e-bike charging.
Make every narrow road (<7m) in the city one-way for cars with all the rest of the space given over to bike/car parking and pedestrian/bike paths.
ban all ICE vehicles.
They won't, Paris and Berlin will remain noisy, polluted, dangerous places to be on a bike.
Public transport does not do random start/finish point journeys late at night or early morning.
Depending where you live public transport might only run once a day or stop before the end of the working day. That's not even close to being usable.
As pointed out it has to be multi modal to work. Trains for longer distances with buses and bikes out from transit hubs and seamless ticketing.
Yes, free passes are a faff in this day and age but most 5 year olds don't have their own phone. Personally I'd just allow children to travel for free and close the gap on the cost differential to use the car.
I take it you don’t have kids, who have no option but to stay in the house because it’s the thing that’s now statistically most likely to kill them?
Most likely to kill them? They are more likely to get murdered than killed on the road.
59 murders in 2021.
52 killed on the road in 2020 - the latest year I can find stats for.
https://www.eta.co.uk/2021/10/19/more-children-dying-on-uk-roads/
When the risks about either are that low I don't worry. Our kids all waklked themselves to school from Primary 1 and survived the experience.
Most likely to kill them? They are more likely to get murdered than killed on the road.
Motor vehicles are the single biggest killer of children over the age of 5.
That's in a world where most younger kids don't leave the house unsupervised.
Motor vehicles are the single biggest killer of children over the age of 5.
But that doesn't necessarily mean the risk is high.
But that doesn’t necessarily mean the risk is high.
It's one child killed each week. Several are seriously injured each day. You'll not find many parents of young children who aren't fearful to let them outside. Even if the risk was low, that is damaging in itself. But if kids were outside, as we were at that age, those numbers would be much, much higher.
To me that is this thread in a nutshell. It makes no sense to me that we can be OK with the conditions we've imposed on our own children.
This weird car centric thinking was brought home today by a younger guy at work with three kids teen-3yo. He was moaning about the 20 limit as it makes it hard to pass cyclists. When I pointed out the average cyclist would struggle to hold 20mph in Peebles. He stayed that they managed that and more he knows because his Speedo tells him when he's overtaking them.
Questioned the legality of him driving at more than 30 in a 20. Apparently he has to because he's in a rush.
To me that is this thread in a nutshell. It makes no sense to me that we can be OK with the conditions we’ve imposed on our own children.
I was making a statistical point, no more.
There are eight million 5-15 year olds in the UK. (source). If there are 50 killed by motor vehicles, that's 1 in 160,000 per year. Yes of course, that's 50 too many, but isn't never letting your kids outside because Cars something of an overreaction?
But if kids were outside, as we were at that age, those numbers would be much, much higher
How are they getting run over indoors?
Bit chicken and egg really innit?
Well that’s a conservative viewpoint – that public transport has to be popular and profitable to be worth investing in. But that idea creates that chicken/egg situation.
However you could invest in public transport anyway, and break that cycle.
I was really being a bit facetious in response to the statement that "PT is unreliable and slow" if it's unreliable and slow, I'd say that has more to do with the primacy of Cars and car culture than some inherent flaw with the idea of PT. Cars hoover up funding for roads, they hoover up road space and they hoover up land for parking they also hoover up people's incomes to buy and fuel.
Apparently the average lease/PCP/HP spend per car is circa £200 PCM or £2400 PA and £1300-1800 PA on fuel (ICE petrol bs diesel) chuck in servicing, insurance, tyres, VED, etc and on "average" car owners are spunking an average of (let's be generous) say £4.5k+ (per car) distributed across various car related outgoings (queue lots of frugal people telling me how cheap their specific motoring habits are)... Imagine if the "average" UK adult didn't throw that money at a car and maybe chucked it at PT and active travel, or even half that amount. The funding of PT wouldn't be such an issue, and without all the tin boxes in the way busses would waft about efficiently on time.
I do also find it hilarious that on a thread essentially discussing how we (as a nation) drive too much, several people have missed the point and started blathering about the wonders of BEVs, the solution to too having many cars isn't just buying a different flavour of car.
Apparently the average lease/PCP/HP spend per car is circa £200 PCM
There's no way that's an average, surely? £300 maybe. I think my g/f's poverty-spec Up! was about £200/month. Though
chuck in servicing, insurance, tyres, VED,
servicing and VED is usually included, tyres too sometimes.
this thread as predicted has all the usual STW positions on it
Normal folk won't cycle that far / what about the hills / rain / sweatiness
Public transport does not work and its for smelly plebs
Nothing that is proven to work in other countries can possibly work in the UK because we are different.
I neeeeeed my car
You cannot takeaway road space from cars
You cannot take away the massive subsidy to cars
On a cycling forum FFS - its really rather depressing
The specific amount people piss away on their tin box isn't really the point, more that a majority have been conditioned to consider that "normal" and that a huge finance industry has grown up to support car consumption and that is probably not a minor contributor to the current economic problems some people are facing. And for all that spend they still have to sit in traffic Jams.
this thread as predicted has all the usual STW positions on it
Normal folk won’t cycle that far / what about the hills / rain / sweatiness
Public transport does not work and its for smelly plebs
Nothing that is proven to work in other countries can possibly work in the UK because we are different.
On a cycling forum FFS – its really rather depressing
Dunno, I think a few of us can imagine a world with far fewer/no cars and a healthier population getting about by using existing (but currently neglected) transport options.
Like I said earlier a jolt (mostly financial) is what is needed to get people out of cars. Busses, trains and cycle infrastructure can all be improved. All of the key technologies were basically established by the Victorians well before cars even existed, it's not particularly revolutionary stuff. We've just gotten a bit too used to something that's never been good for us over the last 70 or so years. As with smoking there comes a point where the consensus shifts and something fundamentally destructive is recognised for what it is and finally people stop wanting to do it...
What's this subsidy? Motorists buy their own cars and motoring taxes more than cover roads expenditure. Hence one of the issues with EVs is how to replace the cash cow taxes from ICE cars.
That aside people choose to use cars because they are useful and convenient and it is a free country.
As for taking road space away from cars? Been done. The resultant bike lanes are virtually empty any time I use them.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/Rc3qho3CoCTpvyK3A
What’s this subsidy?
The VED/fuel duty/vat you pay on your car and fuel don't come close to funding all the roads you merrily drive about on, general taxation props up our national car habit.
this thread as predicted has all the usual STW positions on it
Normal folk won’t cycle that far / what about the hills / rain / sweatiness
Public transport does not work and its for smelly plebs
Nothing that is proven to work in other countries can possibly work in the UK because we are different.
I neeeeeed my car
You cannot takeaway road space from cars
You cannot take away the massive subsidy to cars
On a cycling forum FFS – its really rather depressing
Don't be a dick. We're trying to discuss the issues. If I bring a point e.g. I think the political climate is different in different countries therefore we would need to approach the problem differently - engage that point don't just mock me.
You just keep saying the same thing over and over again. Why do that? You're just invalidating our input, which is rude if nothing else.
I want a discussion on the issues, not a shouting match. You propose a punitive carbon tax to stop people driving - ok, I think that has problems. You want to discuss that? You want to outline how you'd get Dutch style cycle investment through parliament? You want to tell me how we force people onto bikes? Those are the issues we face. I think you are ignoring them, so tell me how you think it can be done.
What’s this subsidy?
Explained many times
Its the total cost of motoring to the general taxpayer which is far less than motoring taxes
Cost of all the deaths and ill health from pollution and noise
Cost of all the deaths directly attributable to car crashes
Cost of all the disability from car crashes all the above including including healthcare costs, forgone earnings, forgone taxes
cost of enforcement of motoring law
Cost of all the damage to buildings
Value of all the public land used for parking that is not available to non motorists
etc etc etc
It depends what you include and how you do the sums but its thousands to many thousands of pounds per car per year. there is no doubt about this. There is a huge costs that is paid out from general taxation that is directly attributable to car driving and this sum far outweighs the taxation derived from motoring
Back on topic
As for taking road space away from cars? Been done. The resultant bike lanes are virtually empty any time I use them.
Well - we don't need cycle lanes, we need a cycle network that works and a massive campaign to change people's behaviour. A bit of tarmac on the side of a main road isn't going to do much on its own.
Molgrips - you are not listening as can be seen from the fact that in that post you grossly misrepresent what I have said
its pointless to attempt to discuss as all you do is shout " it won't work" at any solution including those well proven solutions from all over Europe. the onus is rather on you to show why things that are proven to work in many different countries with many different cultures will not work here
We have been round this topic meany times on here. those themes I put up are what happens every time
Ive given up
This is an example of great cycle infrastructure.
https://goo.gl/maps/h6u4LxusKCrAE5TL9
That road is blocked off, but you are allowed to cycle into it. These things are all over London. Most of the traffic is diverted onto arterial roadways, the cyclists get nice quiet back streets to ride on, no-one can complain about space being taken away from cars either. And it costs almost nothing to do.
As for taking road space away from cars? Been done. The resultant bike lanes are virtually empty any time I use them.
No we have not. Again look to the netherlands - 4 lane roads became 2 lane roads with segregated cycleways. Here we get a bit of paint at the side of the road that when the road narrows or at junctions disappears
its pointless to attempt to discuss as all you do is shout ” it won’t work” at any solution
I don't just shout that. I talk about why I don't think it will work. You don't engage my comments, you just complain.
Let's try again. How will you get the voting public to support huge spend on cycling infrastructure when most of them hate cyclists?
I'm very much in favour of such a thing, just to be clear. I like good cycle infrastructure.
this thread as predicted has all the usual STW positions on it
...
On a cycling forum FFS – its really rather depressing
These aren't our positions. These are what we believe are likely positions of most 'normal' people.
Molgrips - that picture you show is all that is wrong with our cycle infrastructure - a kerb in the way. Crossing a footway, no safe way on or off the road, indirect route. no priority,no separation from cars or pedestrians.
Yeah it's crossing a very short footway, but it really works, and it opens up a really long stretch of deserted backroads which are very pleasant to cycle on. Trust me, having used it a lot, it really does work in that area of that city.
These aren’t our positions. These are what we believe are likely positions of most ‘normal’ people.
Exactly this.
MOlgrips - that picture shows a useless after thought not a planned integral part and its also treating cyclists as third class. If you rode towards the camera there is no way onto the road safely. there are bollards placed in the way. Even turning left onto it there is no safe way. It brings cyclists and pedestrians into conflict with no demarcation. It doesn't get anywhere close to what is in the guidelines for safe cycleways
Final point Then I will not contribute any more. Frustrates me and others
Why are solutions that are used widely all over europe in many different cultures and political systems impossible here?
that picture shows a useless after thought not a planned integral part and its also treating cyclists as third class.
You do know I've actually been there and used it a lot, right? And it works well?
It's not a cycleway, it's a junction. The entire rest of the road you can see in front, that's the cycleway.
Why are solutions that are used widely all over europe in many different cultures and political systems impossible here?
Because no-one would vote for them to be funded
@tjagain because unlike you on the east coast we on the west live with near constant wind and rain 8-9 months of the year and only getting worse. Honestly, it's ****ing grim here, I don't want to cycle and I'm on the pro side, how are you hoping to convince anyone anti that cycling against 30-40mph gusts and driving rain on any day is any sort of alternative. Oh, and that same weather kills the train line at Saltcoats so you can't even take a train that's already 20 minutes longer than driving.
I'm changing jobs and already resigned to park and ride at Shields Road 2 days a week between October and March at best because you can't rely on getting a train home. This is the actual reality of living outside of Edinburgh. A bus will take me an hour and a half and I dread to think how much it costs, I paid £7.60 for a single last week between Kilbirnie and Largs. That's 15 minutes driving between stops if you're lucky. So yeah, cost of ownership all you like you're damn right I'd drive the same journey especially as the road is a ****ing death trap (at least 3 motorcyclists scraped off the road in the last 6 months). Yes, that would and should change but it doesn't change geography or meteorology.
Sorry - missed this one Molgrips - I was not mocking you. Don't take this so personally. I was laughing at the inevitability of the way the "debate" would go
Squirrelking - why so angry at me for things I have not said?
As above - I am not going to comment further - its just makes both sides frustrated.
@tjagain not angry mate, just frustrated same as you. If I was on the same coast it would be easy but I'm stuck where I am. Believe me, I wish it was better and I know its not impossible but if even the converted have lost faith then you're facing a proper battle. Anything I do, isn't enough. I know that. And that's a hard hurdle to overcome in its own.
Christ, just 20 odd miles south and I could probably ditch a car and slash the mileage on the remaining one. ****ing nuts.
You did kinda say that though, you were dismissive of the point that folk don't want to cycle in the rain and such. Or at least that's what came across, perhaps not what you intended.
I love cycling and cycle 3 or 4 times a week all year round. I would not cycle to work though as I cycle for enjoyment and get out to places to avoid cars.
My workplace is in the middle of a very congested commuting area so the 2 miles around it is hell. The 8 miles before that is narrow B roads where people are driving at 50mph. Riding in any of that in the dark, rain, potholed roads - no thanks.
So if I, as a keen cyclist, would not want to take the opportunity to ride to work I don't see many others doing it.
In the towns there are lots of hire bikes and electric scooters - how many people do I see on them? Virtually none. This is where it is pretty flat so none of those nasty hills, and there are cycle lanes on most of the roads. People are still not using them and will get in their cars. You can lead a horse to water..
A lot of people clearly don't want to use the current options so slightly improving those options is unlikely to change that. Cars have become popular for a reason and ignoring that is a bit naive.
this thread as predicted has all the usual STW positions on it
Yup. Your usual myopic, fixed position firmly grounded in your obsessive need to be right which as always leads to a refusal to consider or engage with others points and repeadlty argue your own with an added touch of sanctimony and condescension.
That's a STW standard of your behaviour so maybe reflect on that instead of playing the victim.
No we have not. Again look to the netherlands – 4 lane roads became 2 lane roads with segregated cycleways. Here we get a bit of paint at the side of the road that when the road narrows or at junctions disappears
Here we have a 4 lane road in central Glasgow which became a 2 lane road with segregated cycleway. Superb quality. Even has a cyclist phase at the traffic lights where it crosses another road. I use it. Almost zero other cyclists do.
https://goo.gl/maps/DmfH5uTDvp3yLZhFA
The problems with cycling, as perceived by non cyclists, are not cured by better facilities. They think that compared to a car cycling is hard work, cold, wet, and slow. With no ability to do the shopping on the way home. And as we will never get good facilities like that going everywhere add dangerous to the perceived drawbacks of cycling.
Jeezo, not been up Garscube Road in a while! GCC have done a lot right with the new infrastructure, down here (North Ayrshire) we campaign and wait years for a 250m stretch of pavement to join the safe routes or get unprotected "multi use" paths that don't join up a metre above the high tide mark.
On a personal level I've gone from cycling around town to walking. Time is no longer a constraint and some near misses with drivers distracted by phones put me off. I could cope with the aggressive drivers, they're rare, but not the ones looking at their lap rather than the road. I've all but given up riding on the road, a few cols a year but I take holidays where there are dedicated cycle paths. An extensive network of MTB trails starts less than a km from home so I use those for leisure riding.
My personal expereince is reflected in the stats with a significant increase in the number of cyclists killed in France, and mostly out of town, 60%, which might surprise some - it's leisure cycling in the countryside that's the most dangerous.
The number of cyclists is increasing but almost nothing done to protect them.
I've ridden a lot around Europe and it seems to me that infrastructure in the key. The better the infrastructure the more people will use bikes and fewer will be killed riding them:
The graph is old but you get the idea:
Nothing will change unless drivers want to look for an alternative form of transport.
As it is at the moment asking most drivers to cycle in would be like asking most people on this forum to roller blade or skateboard to work, not going to happen because we'd rather ride.
Motorists are currently paying more than ever for the privilege of driving, higher fuel, taxes, low emission zones, inner city congestion charges, high parking charges, but while they can just pay there way out of they'll continue to do so and just moan about it a bit more on social media.
Its the mindset that needs changing and nothing else will work.
You can try and force people off the road but in the UK most people are too belligerent and will just ignore it, as they do with speed limits, traffic lights, because their mindset says it doesnt apply to me.
In southend we have 5 miles of sectioned off cycle lane straight down the seafront, which gives easy access to most of the area. Most days its empty, I pass maybe 5 other bikes in rush hour, yet every morning theres a queue of traffic next to me nearly half a mile long looking at an empty cycle lane.
Most use atthe weekend in summer, families drive to one end of it, park up, and ride to the seafront get an ice cream and ride drive back home.
And here's the kicker, after over 20 years of commuting using mainly the cycle lane, Ive driven in most days this winter. of an evening on a meter and half wide cycle lane Im now having to dodge and avoid electric bike (conversions) and electric scooters, and even cars, using it (mainly for food delivery), most have no lights most are doing way over 20 mph and that and the usual car near misses are I'm done with, and thats before we start on the rain and cold weather.
And locally we have some fairly narrow roads, within the last month a guy riding a cargo bike died as the result of a head on collision with a car.
A lot of cycle friendly things were put in place during lockdown I don't think many, if any, are still in place, some from not being used (everyone jumped back in their car after trying cycling for a week) some that worked were forcibly removed by the public and councils as they 'weren't need'.
And then on top of that the bike industry is doing itself no favours, no one is going to pay £1,000 for an 'average' bike when they've got a perfectly good car, that can carry a weekes worth of shopping too on the way home.
ITs not just drivers mindsets we need to change its the planners, we need long term planning, not kick it down the road repairs, its the politicians, again need to start running the country and using long term planning not spend four years lining their pockets and just trying to not offend anyone so they can get re-elected, and the councils need to take a long term look at road planning, something that will be effective in 50 or 100 years not just adding another lane to a junction that already needs updating by the time the works been completed, and only then we might have a glimmer of hope of changing a long ingrained mindset.
I was in Oxford for work yesterday, took the park & ride into the centre, lots of cyclists about (& before you say it not just young students) on a cold day in January. Oxford has made it harder & more unpleasant to drive alongside making it easier to cycle/use public transport, but there must be a population density tipping point that makes it work & starting with a student population already on bikes must have helped reach that point to. Got me starting to think where I'd like to retire to but houses are £££
