We have 'car brain' in the UK

Molgrips - that picture you show is all that is wrong with our cycle infrastructure - a kerb in the way.  Crossing a footway, no safe way on or off the road, indirect route. no priority,no separation from cars or pedestrians.

Yeah it's crossing a very short footway, but it really works, and it opens up a really long stretch of deserted backroads which are very pleasant to cycle on. Trust me, having used it a lot, it really does work in that area of that city.

These aren’t our positions. These are what we believe are likely positions of most ‘normal’ people.

Exactly this.

MOlgrips - that picture shows a useless after thought not a planned integral part and its also treating cyclists as third class.  If you rode towards the camera there is no way onto the road safely.  there are bollards placed in the way.  Even turning left onto it there is no safe way.  It brings cyclists and pedestrians into conflict with no demarcation.  It doesn't get anywhere close to what is in the guidelines for safe cycleways

Final point Then I will not contribute any more.  Frustrates me and others

Why are solutions that are used widely all over europe in many different cultures and political systems impossible here?

that picture shows a useless after thought not a planned integral part and its also treating cyclists as third class.

You do know I've actually been there and used it a lot, right? And it works well?

It's not a cycleway, it's a junction. The entire rest of the road you can see in front, that's the cycleway.

Why are solutions that are used widely all over europe in many different cultures and political systems impossible here?

Because no-one would vote for them to be funded

@tjagain because unlike you on the east coast we on the west live with near constant wind and rain 8-9 months of the year and only getting worse. Honestly, it's ****ing grim here, I don't want to cycle and I'm on the pro side, how are you hoping to convince anyone anti that cycling against 30-40mph gusts and driving rain on any day is any sort of alternative. Oh, and that same weather kills the train line at Saltcoats so you can't even take a train that's already 20 minutes longer than driving.

I'm changing jobs and already resigned to park and ride at Shields Road 2 days a week between October and March at best because you can't rely on getting a train home. This is the actual reality of living outside of Edinburgh. A bus will take me an hour and a half and I dread to think how much it costs, I paid £7.60 for a single last week between Kilbirnie and Largs. That's 15 minutes driving between stops if you're lucky. So yeah, cost of ownership all you like you're damn right I'd drive the same journey especially as the road is a ****ing death trap (at least 3 motorcyclists scraped off the road in the last 6 months). Yes, that would and should change but it doesn't change geography or meteorology.

Sorry - missed this one Molgrips - I was not mocking you. Don't take this so personally.  I was laughing at the inevitability of the way the "debate" would go

Squirrelking - why so angry at me for things  I have not said?

As above - I am not going to comment further - its just makes both sides frustrated.

@tjagain not angry mate, just frustrated same as you. If I was on the same coast it would be easy but I'm stuck where I am. Believe me, I wish it was better and I know its not impossible but if even the converted have lost faith then you're facing a proper battle. Anything I do, isn't enough. I know that. And that's a hard hurdle to overcome in its own.

Christ, just 20 odd miles south and I could probably ditch a car and slash the mileage on the remaining one. ****ing nuts.

You did kinda say that though, you were dismissive of the point that folk don't want to cycle in the rain and such. Or at least that's what came across, perhaps not what you intended.

I love cycling and cycle 3 or 4 times a week all year round. I would not cycle to work though as I cycle for enjoyment and get out to places to avoid cars.
My workplace is in the middle of a very congested commuting area so the 2 miles around it is hell. The 8 miles before that is narrow B roads where people are driving at 50mph. Riding in any of that in the dark, rain, potholed roads - no thanks.

So if I, as a keen cyclist, would not want to take the opportunity to ride to work I don't see many others doing it.

In the towns there are lots of hire bikes and electric scooters - how many people do I see on them? Virtually none. This is where it is pretty flat so none of those nasty hills, and there are cycle lanes on most of the roads. People are still not using them and will get in their cars. You can lead a horse to water..

A lot of people clearly don't want to use the current options so slightly improving those options is unlikely to change that. Cars have become popular for a reason and ignoring that is a bit naive.

this thread as predicted has all the usual STW positions on it

Yup. Your usual myopic, fixed position firmly grounded in your obsessive need to be right which as always leads to a refusal to consider or engage with others points and repeadlty argue your own with an added touch of sanctimony and condescension.

That's a STW standard of your behaviour so maybe reflect on that instead of playing the victim.

No we have not. Again look to the netherlands – 4 lane roads became 2 lane roads with segregated cycleways. Here we get a bit of paint at the side of the road that when the road narrows or at junctions disappears

Here we have a 4 lane road in central Glasgow which became a 2 lane road with segregated cycleway. Superb quality. Even has a cyclist phase at the traffic lights where it crosses another road. I use it. Almost zero other cyclists do.

https://goo.gl/maps/DmfH5uTDvp3yLZhFA

The problems with cycling, as perceived by non cyclists, are not cured by better facilities. They think that compared to a car cycling is hard work, cold, wet, and slow. With no ability to do the shopping on the way home. And as we will never get good facilities like that going everywhere add dangerous to the perceived drawbacks of cycling.

Jeezo, not been up Garscube Road in a while! GCC have done a lot right with the new infrastructure, down here (North Ayrshire) we campaign and wait years for a 250m stretch of pavement to join the safe routes or get unprotected "multi use" paths that don't join up a metre above the high tide mark.

On a personal level I've gone from cycling around town to walking. Time is no longer a constraint and some near misses with drivers distracted by phones put me off. I could cope with the aggressive drivers, they're rare, but not the ones looking at their lap rather than the road. I've all but given up riding on the road, a few cols a year but I take holidays where there are dedicated cycle paths. An extensive network of MTB trails starts less than a km from home so I use those for leisure riding.

My personal expereince is reflected in the stats with a significant increase in the number of cyclists killed in France, and mostly out of town, 60%, which might surprise some - it's leisure cycling in the countryside that's the most dangerous.

The number of cyclists is increasing but almost nothing done to protect them.

I've ridden a lot around Europe and it seems to me that infrastructure in the key. The better the infrastructure the more people will use bikes and fewer will be killed riding them:

The graph is old but you get the idea:

Nothing will change unless drivers want to look for an alternative form of transport.

As it is at the moment asking most drivers to cycle in would be like asking most people on this forum to roller blade or skateboard to work, not going to happen because we'd rather ride.

Motorists are currently paying more than ever for the privilege of driving, higher fuel, taxes, low emission zones, inner city congestion charges, high parking charges, but while they can just pay there way out of they'll continue to do so and just moan about it a bit more on social media.

Its the mindset that needs changing and nothing else will work.

You can try and force people off the road but in the UK most people are too belligerent and will just ignore it, as they do with speed limits, traffic lights, because their mindset says it doesnt apply to me.

In southend we have 5 miles of sectioned off cycle lane straight down the seafront, which gives easy access to most of the area. Most days its empty, I pass maybe 5 other bikes in rush hour, yet every morning theres a queue of traffic next to me nearly half a mile long looking at an empty cycle lane.

Most use atthe weekend in summer, families drive to one end of it, park up, and ride to the seafront get an ice cream and ride drive back home.

And here's the kicker, after over 20 years of commuting using mainly the cycle lane, Ive driven in most days this winter. of an evening on a meter and half wide cycle lane Im now having to dodge and avoid electric bike (conversions) and electric scooters, and even cars, using it (mainly for food delivery), most have no lights most are doing way over 20 mph and that and the usual car near misses are I'm done with, and thats before we start on the rain and cold weather.
And locally we have some fairly narrow roads, within the last month a guy riding a cargo bike died as the result of a head on collision with a car.

A lot of cycle friendly things were put in place during lockdown I don't think many, if any, are still in place, some from not being used (everyone jumped back in their car after trying cycling for a week) some that worked were forcibly removed by the public and councils as they 'weren't need'.

And then on top of that the bike industry is doing itself no favours, no one is going to pay £1,000 for an 'average' bike when they've got a perfectly good car, that can carry a weekes worth of shopping too on the way home.

ITs not just drivers mindsets we need to change its the planners, we need long term planning, not kick it down the road repairs, its the politicians, again need to start running the country and using long term planning not spend four years lining their pockets and just trying to not offend anyone so they can get re-elected, and the councils need to take a long term look at road planning, something that will be effective in 50 or 100 years not just adding another lane to a junction that already needs updating by the time the works been completed, and only then we might have a glimmer of hope of changing a long ingrained mindset.

I was in Oxford for work yesterday, took the park & ride into the centre, lots of cyclists about (& before you say it not just young students) on a cold day in January. Oxford has made it harder & more unpleasant to drive alongside making it easier to cycle/use public transport, but there must be a population density tipping point that makes it work & starting with a student population already on bikes must have helped reach that point to. Got me starting to think where I'd like to retire to but houses are £££

My workplace is in the middle of a very congested commuting area so the 2 miles around it is hell. The 8 miles before that is narrow B roads where people are driving at 50mph. Riding in any of that in the dark, rain, potholed roads – no thanks.

The thing is, we DO need targeted cycling infrastructure, but we ALSO need loads of public transport and yes, we will probably still need some cars.

The really big issue is how to get it done. There's a reason political parties haven't done it - there's no public appetite for it, and that's what has to change. Over the last 60 years in the UK we have painted ourselves into a corner by making the wrong choices, even though we didn't really think they were wrong at the time.

On the subject of infrastructure specifically, I don't think we would end up with Netherlands style cycle lanes, and I'm not sure I want them. I would rather see a network of nice quiet back roads linked together with cycle-only gateways like the one in the picture I showed, and with major links to avoid the really bad bits. But people just bitch and moan like hell and actively campaign against the things that need to be done. Near where I live they're putting in new developments and they wanted to knock down a house to create a cycle/pedestrian access point between the two, so that you could cycle through both developments on quiet streets and actually get somewhere, instead of needing to go with all the cars on one of only three car routes out of this side of the city. A brilliant idea, but people got absolutely incensed that they wanted to knock a house down, and they campaigned bitterly against it with all sorts of bollocks reasons. The house in question is a 25 year old 3 bed Wimpey style shitbox, and absolutely nothing special at all - we're not talking SSSIs for motorways here.

I spend a lot of time thinking about why it's a pain in the arse cycling from where I live, and it's because the road network is terribly badly planned and heavily in favour of cars. There's a dual carriageway linking the north-eastern suburbs to the city centre, but away from that the roads just don't even link up properly. There's a large 60s suburb that was planned with loads of car-free paths in it, but they only link up to other places in that same suburb. So you can get around that area on foot without going near a road, but you can't easily cycle through it or even walk out of it to amenities in the older suburbs nearby. It also makes public transport a right pain, with the result that the bus from where we live takes nearly an hour to get into town. This kind of problem is really hard to solve - but it can be, it needs lots of money, planning and building work.

And then on top of that the bike industry is doing itself no favours, no one is going to pay £1,000 for an ‘average’ bike

You may not have been in Halfords recently but there are loads of bikes that I would be perfectly happy riding around town on for £400 or so, you can even get an e-bike for £1,100.

Re why the Netherlands is different: The wiki page has this to say about politics in the Netherlands:

The Netherlands is described as a consociational state. Dutch politics and governance are characterised by a common striving for broad consensus on important issues, within both of the political community and society as a whole.

Now I know it's only a wiki page but you cannot imagine anyone saying anything like that about the UK, can you? As I said before, different countries view the concept and role of government differently, which is how they will accept different things from them and vote differently. Or to put it another way, there are deep rooted social-historical reasons we ended up with Brexit and not Netherlexit.

The really big issue is how to get it done. There’s a reason political parties haven’t done it – there’s no public appetite for it, and that’s what has to change. Over the last 60 years in the UK we have painted ourselves into a corner by making the wrong choices, even though we didn’t really think they were wrong at the time.

I think there is a degree of public appetite for better Public and Active transport in general but as mentioned upthread, we're at the end of a cul de sac of a 60-year reliance on cars, marketing of them, building to accommodate them (at the expense of every other form of transport), creating a social, cultural and financial system that absolutely demands that cars are seen as essential and desirable and everything else is seen as substandard.

Even the Netherlands went through a decade or more of substantial protest when they started moving away from a car-dominated society in the 1970's.

We're approaching that stage but 60 years later and with a lot less conviction because we have a catastrophically stupid right wing Government that ultimately doesn't really want to change much, it just wants to make announcements about grand plans.

Transport needs a long-term, cross-party approach with consistent funding. At the moment it's got a short-term and wildly partisan approach with piecemeal funding, announced and removed at the whim of whichever idiot is Transport Secretary at that time.

Dutch politics and governance are characterised by a common striving for broad consensus on important issues, within both of the political community and society as a whole.

When can I move there?

Transport needs a long-term, cross-party approach with consistent funding.

See also, power infrastructure, economic policy / brexit, 'levelling up the north', wealth disparity, northern ireland, and a whole bunch of other big difficult issues that are never properly addressed.

Apparently the average lease/PCP/HP spend per car is circa £200 PCM

Some figures here - I am not sure I quite believe some of them. For example, the average a car has spent on
- windscreen washer fluid, washing etc a year is only £9 - yet a single Halfords screenwash is £8-10 now. Do most people only have water and never wash a car?
- breakdown cover averages at £18 - does this mean many cars have no breakdown cover?
- depreciation only £1100 or so...Yet the average car costs £12-36k?
etc

Bottom line, it seems that £200 a month running costs + the loan/pcp/whatever is the average,

https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/cheap-car-insurance/average-cost-run-car-uk
https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/average-car-running-costs-now-220-a-month/

Do most people only have water and never wash a car?

– breakdown cover averages at £18 – does this mean many cars have no breakdown cover?

– depreciation only £1100 or so…Yet the average car costs £12-36k?

Wash a car? I might if I lived in the arid South. What's wrong with rain?

I'd have thought that a very small percentage of drivers have breakdown insurance, but in some cases it might come included in their bank account offer so those costs might not be reflected.

As for the average car costing £12k-£36k, this might be true in STW land but isn't what I see. I've certainly never paid that much of my own money for a car or van. Also, I reckon many folk keep cars long enough that the depreciation costs are miniscule. Again, might friend where you live and the relative affluence.

And here’s the kicker, after over 20 years of commuting using mainly the cycle lane, Ive driven in most days this winter. of an evening on a meter and half wide cycle lane Im now having to dodge and avoid electric bike (conversions) and electric scooters, and even cars, using it (mainly for food delivery), most have no lights most are doing way over 20 mph and that and the usual car near misses are I’m done with, and thats before we start on the rain and cold weather.

I can relate to that, things getting worse not better for users of shared space.

The rain and cold isn't just the impact it has on me the cyclist. I know that drivers will be peering out of partially defrosted windows, misted up side windows, completely uncleared mirrors, it's dark, there are advertsing panels fashing and distracting. Rain and cold is good for car repairers and bad for cyclists.

As for the rain and cold I'm fairly hardy but when it's cold I only swim in the outdoor pool once a week and sometimes have a lane to myself. In Summer there are over 10 to a 50m lane. People have a similar attitude to riding a bike.

Agree we are a totally car centric society in the UK.

The “rights of cars on the road” and car owners freedom is seen by many as the equivalent of American right to bear arms.

Dare to criticise or comment on an individuals driving and you risk verbal or physical assault, even from otherwise well behaved people.

molgrips
Full Member
Re why the Netherlands is different: The wiki page has this to say about politics in the Netherlands:

The Netherlands is described as a consociational state. Dutch politics and governance are characterised by a common striving for broad consensus on important issues, within both of the political community and society as a whole.

Now I know it’s only a wiki page but you cannot imagine anyone saying anything like that about the UK, can you? As I said before, different countries view the concept and role of government differently, which is how they will accept different things from them and vote differently. Or to put it another way, there are deep rooted social-historical reasons we ended up with Brexit and not Netherlexit.

I was talking to a Dutch person about this and they explained that living in a country where if dykes and sea defences weren't doing their job your house would be under water tends to make you very keen on understanding and happily accepting of / contributing towards mutually beneficial infrastructure even though you can't see it from your window and your house has never flooded.....

because unlike you on the east coast we on the west live with near constant wind and rain 8-9 months of the year and only getting worse. Honestly, it’s **** grim here, I don’t want to cycle

That's not true though. You get less rain than we do here in Swansea, and I rarely get soaked through. I remember really wet weather by how many times my so-called waterproof boots get waterlogged, and that tends to happen once a year, maybe twice, for a few days at a time. The rest of the year you'll get the odd shower during your commute, but that's outweighed for me by seeing the sun rise, or the mists over the field, or the trees budding, or whatever. The majority of the time my commute is just grey, overcast weather. And being on the coast of south Wales we get the wind hitting us from the Irish Sea.

The actual route of your cycle commute may be grim, but any of us who commute regularly anywhere in the country will tell you that you're making excuses about the weather. Don't cycle if you don't want to, but there's no need to invent stuff.

I'm seeing an increase in the number of regular cycle commuters, which is good.

The top 10 wettest cities and the cost of the rainfall

1. Swansea, average annual rainfall, 1,360.8mm (#582.4m).

2. Londonderry, 1,122.5mm (#22.9m).

3. Glasgow, 1032.9 (#150.2m). 4. Plymouth, 1008.6mm (#62.1m).

5. Cardiff, 980.8mm (#79.8m).

6. Preston, 970.4mm (#33.8m).

7. Belfast, 940.5mm (#71.2m).

I was talking to a Dutch person about this and they explained that living in a country where if dykes and sea defences weren’t doing their job your house would be under water tends to make you very keen on understanding and happily accepting of / contributing towards mutually beneficial infrastructure even though you can’t see it from your window and your house has never flooded…..

same as Canvey Island round here.... although judging by the usual 2 - 3 mile traffic jam to get off the island to numerous places of work every morning Im guessing they don't share the same ideaology...

Well there's a slight difference - because it's such a big deal for so much of the country it's part of the national psyche and on people's minds all the time. The water is part of the nation and the national myth.
Canvey Island is small and could be abandoned (like that village in North Wales) without much detriment to the national as a whole. Not the case in the Netherlands, half of the country would be gone.

You may not have been in Halfords recently but there are loads of bikes that I would be perfectly happy riding around town on for £400 or so, you can even get an e-bike for £1,100.

Indeed. 20 years ago I lived 3 miles from work and used a 1950s Raleigh gents bike (all black, full mudguards, fully encased chain, rod brakes etc,.) that I got for £50. Used it for years and it was brilliant as had to wear suits back then. Could just ride in full suit and coast along at 10mph hardly putting any effort in and getting to work not sweaty, not needing to shower/change etc,. Would have been stupid to have driven.

I probably wouldn't want to commute 10 miles on it though.

this thread as predicted has all the usual STW positions on it

Normal folk won’t cycle that far / what about the hills / rain / sweatiness

Public transport does not work and its for smelly plebs

Nothing that is proven to work in other countries can possibly work in the UK because we are different.

My perspective on these after going through the results of a travel survey we’ve conducted at work are.

Normal folk won’t cycle is a valid statement. They are not keen cyclists like us. They see no upside over traveling in a car or work more than a couple of miles from home or have no facilities at their place of work. Most normal folk appear to actively dislike cycling as a mode of transportation.

Public transport, at least around here, is a bit shit and expensive. I regularly use the train but wouldn’t use the bus. It would add hours on to my day.

We are different in a cultural sense, in the way we’re governed, in the way the majority of us view cars etc.

None of it has any bearing on this being a cycling forum. It’s not our opinions, it’s everyone else’s! Your attitude is similar on the Sustainability threads. You tend to view things from your POV and your immediate experiences. That’s great but not everyone has the same ideals, opportunities and outlook as you. I agree with you in principle but can also see its not an easy thing to persuade the masses to ditch the car.

Comfort, door to door, time constraints, ease. All things quoted in our works survey as to why folk use cars as opposed to other transport methods. Less than 10% of colleagues would consider catching a bus. Similar figures for cycling. I intend to commission a follow up to dig deeper in to the why and what, if anything, could convince people to change

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64408468

The above is one way to reduce car usage, in a way, but the transport alternatives exist in Hackney - no end of trains, busses, ubers, cycling etc. you could use instead.

So it seems cars usage only starts to get 'phased out' if reasonable alternatives exist.

How do we suppose this is done when alternatives don't exist - i.e. in most of the country outside the biggest cities in the UK?

How do we suppose this is done when alternatives don’t exist – i.e. in most of the country outside the biggest cities in the UK?

We have to make the alternatives, we have to put up the money, build stuff and make it better than or at least as good as driving. This will take time, and money. There's no other way.

We'll have to see how it goes in South Wales.

Canvey Island is small and could be abandoned

Should..... Should be abandoned along with its inhabitants.

Another reason not to cycle for 4 months of the year? Darkness. I work part time and work shifts so most of my leisure riding is in daylight. I was out a bit later this afternoon and the home leg had a stretch of unlit rural road after dark. I was very wary of potholes. I perceive road surface hazards are the biggest risk to me. With decent lights front (400 lumen) and rear I was given plenty space by drivers but felt I was only just seeing potholes in time.

Sure I good buy better lights. But where does it stop. Better lights, decent waterproofs, or just carry on using the car to get to work. I'm not sure casual cyclists will go out and buy 1000 lumen front lights so they can leave the car at home in winter.

I’m not sure casual cyclists will go out and buy 1000 lumen front lights so they can leave the car at home in winter.

I don't think lighting is much of an issue when Halfords will sell you an excellent 1000lm light to go with your new bike for £30. However, even with such a light being in traffic on a wet dark evening surrounded by cars is still no fun at all. Hence needing decent cycle infrastructure.

And riding on rural lanes is not a problem for majority of people who could cycle. A lot of people live in towns where street lighting is everywhere and the only purpose of bike lights is for you to be seen rather than to see where you are going.

As in my case cycling 10 miles to work on rural lanes is going to appeal to 1% of people so we should forget those cases as we are not getting cycling infrastructure on B roads as it would-be a massive cost for very little benefit. Concentrate on the towns and cities and suburban areas.

How do we suppose this is done when alternatives don’t exist – i.e. in most of the country outside the biggest cities in the UK?

outside of London I think you mean. Cycling infrastructure is universally poor in just about every town and city. (Bristol might be the exception.)

You know, if more people simply rode mopeds things would be quite a bit better.

In the UK it seems people jump in their cars to drive <1 mile to the shop.

I do, because if I need to do a largish shop, it’s a mile walk to one particular store, then at least another mile or so to another for different items, and from there a mile walk back home, trying to carry at least four large heavy bags just isn’t an option. And with nobody else to share shopping duties it’s down to me to buy food when I need it.
I can, and do shop in town where possible and I can carry stuff home, but it’s not always possible. An e-bike? Don’t have the money, plus carrying bags is dangerous. I’ve seen an amazing e-bitrike, the rear wheels are on a diff and can lean into corners as well as having independent suspension, plus it has a cargo carrying capacity between the rear wheels. I’d love one, but it’s far too expensive for me. Shame, I’ve seen footage of one being ridden off-road, and it looks like shitloads of fun.

You know, if more people simply rode mopeds things would be quite a bit better.

Agree. A scheme such as that seen in Taiwan with battery swappable eMopeds (where the batteries come from battery stations of fully charged batteries) is a great idea and really took off there

You need a 65l rucksac for walking to the shops or a collection of Ortlieb bags for you bike to carry stuff safely, Countzero. I can carry as much stuff as will stay fresh before the next shop - zero waste.

You know, if more people simply rode mopeds things would be quite a bit better.

Even if people drove fiat 500s instead of SUVs things would be somewhat better 🙂

You need a 65l rucksac for walking to the shops or a collection of Ortlieb bags for you bike to carry stuff safely, Countzero. I can carry as much stuff as will stay fresh before the next shop – zero waste.

Or. A poussette de marché... Shopping trolley...

I use a burley nomad two wheeled trailer for my big shop. It can easily swallow 3 big bags of shopping, and I can carry more on my front and rear racks, if needed. I think the heaviest shop I've come back with has been about 40kg worth (uphill to get home I might add) but I could up that too about 60kg fairly easily.

The added boon of this is that I'm getting free exercise. Studded tyres and waterproofs mean that I do this year round. I actually enjoy it, which I never did when I owned a car.

I actually enjoy it

I have to say, I was reluctant to stop using the car for shopping because time, but it is actually much more enjoyable to be plodding along listening to the birds.

I'm a backpack user too. Nothing special, just an ordinary backpack. The heavy stuff goes in there, meaning the remaining bags are rarely heavy. I now really dislike going in the car, it always feels a bit stressful and never in any way satisfying. It's also incredibly boring.

I rarely drive to the shops, but it's only 0.7 miles and I generally just take 2 bags. I don't buy a lot each time because I actually want to have to leave the house. About 60% of our food comes in a delivery van though.