Cycle lanes are all very well but I haven't been out on my bike for the last week because of the risk of ice.
With the change in weather I got out today for a ride across Glasgow and back. I used a few sections where there are excellent segregated cycle lanes. Didn't see more than one other cyclist using them.
https://goo.gl/maps/xuDuxvcvLdK695XQ8
https://goo.gl/maps/uuK1LDJ6A7F9YGAVA
On th other hand a road I used to use has been ruined by a poor quality facility. With 6 lanes in a 30mph area sharing the road was never a problem. Now part of the inside lane has been seperated by bollards so the vehicle tyres no longer sweep the crap off it and it is a poorly drained puncture magnet. Now I avoid it.
https://goo.gl/maps/dRqteySokpmtrjCY7
From November to March I think you will struggle in the Scottish climate to persuade people to adopt cycling as a commuting mode.
In the spirit of giving credit where it is due I have noticed these secure bike lockers have appeared all over the city. To avoid anyone living in a flat needing to carry their bike upstairs and store in in a flat. Assuming the locks are a decent standard and it is a low end bike being stored they look like a good idea.
https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=26991
So how would we change that thinking? One of the big issues in my opinion is working hours and location. A lot of folk travel long distances to work long hours. The idea of tacking on another hour or more to that each day just doesn’t appeal to most folk. To be honest I can see why.
What are other countries doing that we aren’t?
Cycling is hard and you get sweaty and you and you’d need a shower and the traffic makes it too dangerous..and…and
Every excuse under the sun.
These bits are actually valid though are they not? Cycling is hard for people who don’t regularly cycle. I find running hard because I don’t ever run. The shower thing is just sensible if any sort of distance is involved. Christ, I work with people who drive to work who I would not want to be anywhere near if they’d cycled and not showered after. It would be a biohazard!
What would encourage me to cycle commute would be good showers and lockers + drying room at work. None of which we have. My work is a good 45-50m ride away. Too far for a gentle non sweaty pootle. As a regular cyclist I would consider it. In fact in a previous job which also had secure bike parking I did bike commute for years. Persuading non cyclists that 45m on the bike at midnight after a lateshift is better than 15m in a nice warm car will take some doing. I only know 1 colleague who rides to work every day. But he is also a club cyclists and track cyclist. Not the demographic that needs convincing.
I used to work in a planning department in Scotland. So they're looking at things like 20 minute neighborhoods, increasing active travel, reducing carbon etc.
However, nearly all of them went out to the local supermarket at lunch, all in their own cars, one a 10 minute walk, the other about 20 minute walk.
I suggested we all chip in to get 1 or 2 elephant bikes for our service so people could use them for the short distance to the supermarket or if nipping to the post office etc. We'd be showing a good example, helping a charity, bit of exercise etc. Out of 34 people in the office not one was interested! It would have maybe been £20 each from well paid people to have a couple of office bikes.
Only two of us rode to work when our work schedules required (didn't need the car for visits) and we had changing rooms, lockers and showers.
Most people are just too lazy, see cycling on roads as too dangerous and not transport. They'd rather go to a gym or sports club if they want to exercise, and happily drive there and back.
Also given where I worked, when they did try to push for more active travel friendly developments, reduced parking and speed limits, and not allow housing development outside of existing settlements the bloody dinosaur councillors would then put a cabosh on that and approve the developments! We even had a case where Roads were going to reduce a speed limit to encourage active travel (as was in their powers to do without involving committees) and the Councillors played hell and stopped it complaining they'd not had a say.
Just look at all the trouble with the Spaces for People funding during COVID. Our authority couldn't even get and agreement to spend the £200k they were allocated because of people complaining it would cause issues for cars. It seems most of what did go in in other places has now been removed .
The argument that increasing the cost of driving would impact the poorest is a non sequitur because “poor” people already don’t drive.
PoorER then. Being poor or not isn't a binary condition.
Making things more expensive does not affect everyone equally, it hits those with less money the hardest. Making fuel £3.50/litre or whatever will cripple those of lower income who may rely on it as a lifeline, whereas the rich simply won't care and will carry on driving their 7L Mercedeseses. It's encouraging a tiered system of privilege and we have enough of that already.
As I said before, if you want to reduce car usage then you have to provide a viable, attractive alternative. I consider buses an absolute last resort because they're often pretty grim and badly in need of cleaning, adding the stigma of being the poor man's transport isn't going to help with that. (Hell, the last time I got a minicab it stank of stale fags, I couldn't get out of there fast enough.)
One of the big issues in my opinion is working hours and location. A lot of folk travel long distances to work long hours.
I had hoped that one of the positives from covid might have been that this mentality would change.
The traffic is only bad because people in cars.......
...... “but the traffic is too bad to ride a bike”.
Yup.. Massive mental leap needs to be made there by most people.
Be the problem or the change.
People don’t want to get out of their cars. It adds time and effort to their day.
The key word here being effort. People are lazy wot nots and will almost always look for an easy excuse. They need pushing in the right direction. More stick, less carrot.
My wife (as an occasional cyclist who does a bunch of other physical activity) refuses to ride my cargo bike as its too heavy for her to be able to manouver easily, especially with kids onboard, and its not geared in a way that she’d make it up hills.
I know several mums in Munich who ride non-assisted cargo bikes, and they just accept that it'll take a bit longer. I know even more who have e-assisted cargo bikes.
She’s unfit because she doesn’t ride, not because she’s a woman. Surely you can appreciate that?
No. Only one of those "issues" cannot be changed.
Yeah, I know, I'm a dick.
I had hoped that one of the positives from covid might have been that this mentality would change.
You and me both Cougar. The slide back to presenteeism has been sad to see. I’m lucky where I work that there is an expectation to be in two days. I’m normally in different locations each day and rarely WFH
I don’t know if the situation will change as a lot of senior management don’t like it and would prefer everyone back full time. I think it’s a generational thing to some degree.
“don’t need to”. Other than the global warming issue and the air pollution need to, and the obesity epidemic need to and the financial and societal costs of the above. Apart from that there’s no need to get anyone out of their cars.
You misunderstand. People don't think they need to cycle, so they won't, when there is a nice warm easy car on the driveway to get into.
In London, many people don't have cars because public transport is so good. Then cycling is cheaper, so they often cycle but they have great PT to fall back on. Few people want to cycle every single day unless forced to. Sometimes it's snowing and icy, sometimes it's blowing a gale, sometimes it's pouring, sometimes you are just dead tired.
So I think what we need is massive PT investment. That way, you'll see people moving to one car or even no car households, and then the situation is ripe for getting more cycling in when it's a nice day and/or you can save some cash but you still have a backup. Better still, integrated PT/cycling where you can put your bike on a train or bus. Or even your scooter for that matter.
Shout out to the Welsh Government for actually attempting this, by the way.
Seems to me a lot is already being done to try and get people out of their cars, but on the sly. No big vote-losing schemes like making fuel £10 per litre, but rather the endless tweaks and faffing that genuinely make driving an absolute ballache, in cities at least (But still not as bad as cycling in the rain or sharing expensive, unreliable public transport with the great unwashed).
Congestion Charge, CAZ, one-way, road narrowing, closed roads, speed cameras, lack of parking etc etc… you’d think it’d be enough to put off all but the people who actually have to be on the roads, trades, couriers, cabbies etc, but it doesn’t really. People just accept it’s going to take longer. Better to be sat almost stationary in their own warm car than the alternatives.
The slide back to presenteeism has been sad to see. I’m lucky where I work that there is an expectation to be in two days. I’m normally in different locations each day and rarely WFH
I don’t know if the situation will change as a lot of senior management don’t like it and would prefer everyone back full time.
I know it's wildly off-topic but, we need to be pushing back more on this. Flexible working is a legal right (until the Retained EU Law bill potentially, anyway), if an employee wants to work from home and can do so effectively then an employer has to allow it or justify why they can't, and "senior management don’t like it" isn't a good enough reason.
In London, many people don’t have cars because public transport is so good.
Public transport in London is exceptional, in both senses of the word. But consider,
1) Population density. The population of London is two thirds greater than the population of Scotland.
2) By the capital's very nature a lot of those people have places to be, whether that's their high-powered job in the centre or various amenities. There's a huge demand for the Tube and similar infrastructure; the party animals are turning in just as the early birds are getting up, the city never stops. Whereas elsewhere in the country it's Catch-22 - no-one uses public transport because it's shit, but it's shit because no-one uses it.
When I was a kid the bus from outside my mum's house into town (or back) was every half an hour; today I think it's twice a day. I mentioned earlier about lifelines but for my mum it's exactly what this is, without that (free to pensioners) bus she's spending her pension on taxis. I could come over and give her a lift but that strips her of what little independence she has left and in any case I usually don't have the car during weekdays since becoming a 1-car family. I'm waiting for the day the service is cancelled completely.
Incidentally,
What happened to school buses? Are they still a thing at all?
(Again) when I was a kid I used to get the bus from the same aforementioned bus stop outside my mum's. It was always full. At school there were three other buses that arrived from other directions (and obviously, after school there were four buses taking everyone home again). I don't recall anything remotely like the chaos of today.
Seems to me a lot is already being done to try and get people out of their cars, but on the sly. No big vote-losing schemes like making fuel £10 per litre, but rather the endless tweaks and faffing that genuinely make driving an absolute ballache, in cities at least
Re Welsh Government again - there have been many proposals to build the M4 relief road over the years, and it's come very very close a few times. But ultimately they have decided not to do it, and instead are spending a ton of money on rationalising the PT network across South Wales.
Population density. The population of London is two thirds greater than the population of Scotland.
That only affects the profitability of public transport. It's not meant to be a money making scheme.
What happened to school buses? Are they still a thing at all?
Yes they are run by companies which in our case is Cardiff Bus. They had to cancel a load during austerity but they are still there. They also give you bus fare if you have to take a public bus and the distance is over three miles. My kids (both girls ) would have to walk through some less nice parts of Cardiff down alleys and lanes and it comes in just under 3 miles. Thanks.
That only affects the profitability of public transport. It’s not meant to be a money making scheme.
But it is a money making scheme. In my previous home the council were totally over a barrel with the local bus companies. Pretty much every time they'd tender for the service they wanted the companies would come in too high (and much higher than before) and so services or whole routes were cut. There was no way we'd get bikes on buses as no one was going to pay for it, certainly not the bus companies free if charge.
That only affects the profitability of public transport. It’s not meant to be a money making scheme.
Perhaps, but it's not meant to be a money-losing scheme either, is it?
its supposed to be a public service.
Perhaps, but it’s not meant to be a money-losing scheme either, is it?
Depends. If you want to reduce car usage significantly, then it might well have to be. The reason we don't have enough now is because it's not always profitable.
People are happy to have central government cough up for roads, even though road building isn't profitable, because they understand roads are needed. Well, it's not specifically roads that we need, it's transport. So let's come up with a better way and fund what we need.
Public transport in Edinburgh is excellent around 20 buses an hour pat my door
Whats the common denominator with london? its a publicly owned service run for the benefit of the citizens. the only two places in the UK IIRC
FFS we have extremely good BEVs. Visit Renault, Tesla, Fiat, Peugeot, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Kia… .
No they don’t. They have hugely expensive ev’s relying on old battery technology that won’t last very long and that no one has a clue what to do with once the battery is useless. They have an extremely short shelf life compared to an ice. No electric car will still be working at 10 years old with it’s original battery. The batteries will all be in landfill and new ones built using some extremely unenvironmentally friendly techniques
No they don’t. They have hugely expensive ev’s relying on old battery technology that won’t last very long and that no one has a clue what to do with once the battery is useless. They have an extremely short shelf life compared to an ice. No electric car will still be working at 10 years old with it’s original battery. The batteries will all be in landfill and new ones built using some extremely unenvironmentally friendly techniques
Shush, you're spoiling the story
😉
They have hugely expensive ev’s relying on old battery technology that won’t last very long and that no one has a clue what to do with once the battery is useless.
And Tesla made the battery structural to the car, which is excellent design in so far as it saves weight, bulk and cost. But (I assume) as soon as the battery is dead you're stuffed.
There are already Tesla's with hundreds of thousands of miles on the clock. This guy got 180k from his first battery back which had an issue fixed under warranty
https://insideevs.com/news/559261/tesla-models-p85-1500000-kilometers/amp/
Plenty of other stories out there so I call bollocks on your 10 year claim. Your wife's mates must be those experts-for-hire that keep writing hatchet jobs on things that conservatives don't like.
Also my EV was 27k although aindidnt buy it. Not hugely expensive by any stretch.
Anyway there's another thread for that.
Whats the common denominator with london? its a publicly owned service run for the benefit of the citizens. the only two places in the UK IIRC
I do think transport should be publicly owned but that's not why London is exceptional. The system was developed when the alternatives involved horses and London also happened to be one of the richest places in the world so they could afford to chuck money at it. Also I don't think it was public when it was built but may be wrong. So yeah be careful of extrapolating from London.
Why is Edinburgh exceptional then? We have a top notch bus service that cost £1.80 for a single journey of any distance, £4.40 for unlimited daily journeys and the network extends well outside the city. The buses are all newish with increasing numbers of hybrids. It integrates properly with the train stations, serves all parts of the city rich and poor alike. Free wifi on all buses, comfy clean and frequent. the bus drivers are even well trained to co operate with cyclists - some of the most courteous drivers in the city. Key points like the road outside my flat you get 20+ buses an hour with many services every 5 mins.
the key thing is its publicly owned and run as a service. No fake competition
Why exceptional you say?
For comparison someone asked on FB about buses running between two market towns (circa 5k population) locally about 8 miles apart. Here’s the exact response.
Three times a week,Monday,Wednesday and Thursday...2 runs each day...look up Community Connexions 278 service...i should know,it's usually ME driving it on Monday and Wednesday..
That’s run by a charity BTW so no fake competition.
I know several mums in Munich who ride non-assisted cargo bikes, and they just accept that it’ll take a bit longer. I know even more who have e-assisted cargo bikes.
Good for them. I'd wager Munich is flatter than where I live, and that an eCargo bike cost a lot more than our 7 seater.
No electric car will still be working at 10 years old with it’s original battery
Not sure if this was sarcasm, but the model s has been out for 11 years, plenty of them on the roads
Yes I agree transport should be publicly run for utility not profit.
Doesn't necessarily need to be 100% publicly owned, but a publicly owned integrated ticket system for the region.
If TJ's £1.80 fare is a go anywhere within the fare zone via any combination of modes of transport, then we are talking.
Integration isn't just buses and trains joining up. Most towns have that. Plus it needs to be at 10 or 15 minutes intervals, or worst case 30. not 1 hour to tempt people.
It’s worth considering that car manufacturers make as much money from finance as they do from building cars - they have a vested interest in an ownership model where the vast majority of the time, they are sat going nowhere depreciating. ‘I can’t see many people giving up the convenience of personal transport, but maybe a hire or shared ownership model where you could call up a self-driving EV could work well in many urban areas - this is what Uber are trying to achieve. Variable pricing to offset demand at peak times and maybe encourage ride sharing? At some point the Government are going to have to bring in road pricing to offset the revenue lost from fuel taxation. Quite how all this works in remote and isolated communities like mine remains to be seen. We currently have 6 EV charger points on an island 50 miles long and population of 3,000, which trebles in summer.
If you want to sell BEVs to the masses they need batteries big enough to avoid faffing and range angst.
Sounds like a serious case of car brain to me.
I didn’t buy the original Zoé in 2012 because the 23kWh battery wouldn’t take me skiing and back
Yes, 23kWh was probably a little too small, but a well managed 30-35 with a charge time of 5 minutes for those times you travel further, with the related weight reduction (range increase) and cost savings would cover the vast majority of users needs with minor added planning needs.
And range angst has been a thing for years, there used to be well understood price increments for adding advertised range per tank to cars in the US, 500-550-600 miles, or 1000 km in Europe. Even though 95% of it was simply adding tank volume.
I'm sure many people would use cars less if they had a reliable, fast and cheap form of transport (e.g. trains). But many can't afford to live in cities due to higher pricing, and so live further out with a longer commute, and thus need a car.
They also often don't use public transport, as it's more expensive and slower than just driving in.
It's quite simple really - it all comes down to £££.
The solutions of just increasing taxation on car users is overly simplistic - you need to address the structural issues with poor public transport first.
If TJ’s £1.80 fare is a go anywhere within the fare zone via any combination of modes of transport, then we are talking.
It is - but we only have the buses and the daft trams - the only exception is its a fiver on the tram to the airport but the 1.80 ticket applies to any single jouney. Mainline trains don't really stop withing the area - couple of stops to the east and thats about it and I don't know the fares. 4.40 for a unlimited day use for one adult, £9.50 for unlimited day use for a family with of course heavily discounted or free tickets for over 60s and youth.
At some point the Government are going to have to bring in road pricing to offset the revenue lost from fuel taxation.
Its taxed about 60p a litre, plus VAT.
10k miles a year at 50mpg is about £1500 total, about £850 to the government coffers from the average motorists pocket. Plus "road tax" averaging around the 150 to 200 mark?
Remembering that electicity has VAT on it - very generously, £500 a year electric cost gives £100 a year tax.
So they need to find £900pa from the average motorist. Or with 33 million cars in the uk, just shy of £30 billion pounds total.
The issue in the US is exactly the same in the UK and Europe.
It's not the cars themselves that are too blame, but our reliance as a society upon them....
What we absolutely do NOT need is a 'British Solution'.
The British mentality for 50 years now has been short term, zero vision, zero foresight. That's why we have inadequate energy capacity. No new nuclear power stations for 25 years. No meaningful new water storage (big reserviors) for 30+ years and drought threats + raw shit pumped into rivers and seas. A grand total of 68 miles high speed railways. Shit underfunded education for decades. A health system that is ****ed over backwards. A care system that is even worse. Half arsed rail electrification that starts and stops leaving huge areas and the vast majority of freight running with diesel. Why HS2 trains will be pokey and small (to fit shit old non HS2 lines becausesome morons in Gov decided not to build HS2 to where it needs to go). And why there is a massive balance of payments shortfall.
For once, we actually need a long term plan of the sort Germany, France, Norway, Sweden, or Japan would develop.
For once, we actually need a long term plan
Yes.
And one that puts people and environment and sustainability (in it's widest sense) first, not vote winning and rich friend keeping first.
Its one of the things that amuses me on threads like this. solutions that are used in many other countries and are proven to work well apparently will not work in the UK. British exceptionalism?
I think a lot of the problem is in the ‘highway code’ itself.
The title of this publication suggests that not running someone over is an act of chivalry, to be rewarded with a life-peerage and 40 acres of the Scottish highlands.
We need more investment in public transport, but plough a chunk of the profits back into elderly social care, like a local income tax.
With an ageing population, we’re going to need every last penny…
for good public transport it needs to be seen as a public service not a money making exercise, Its needs subsidy not profits. The money can come from removing the subsidy on car drivers - gradually and in parallel
British exceptionalism?
See also: BREXIT
What happened to school buses? Are they still a thing at all?
My school is fortunate/big enough to own its own minibusses, used for sports and school trips etc. I think they also now send them out on commuter loops too every morning which seems logical. For the sake of resourcing the staff and putting fuel in them, they are using them rather than having them sat for the vast majority of the week.
Its one of the things that amuses me on threads like this. solutions that are used in many other countries and are proven to work well apparently will not work in the UK. British exceptionalism?
Fully agree. The problem is that we have lost control of most of our infrastructure as a result of privatisation. This has fundamentally changed everything to a very short term view that doesn’t look much beyond the next bonus or dividends payments
Its one of the things that amuses me on threads like this. solutions that are used in many other countries and are proven to work well apparently will not work in the UK. British exceptionalism?
Yes.
Partly it's the way that Highways, engineering, traffic etc has been taught for decades, partly it's dogmatic views from Government > Treasury > Highways, some of it is social (the idea that car = success and status and importance while bike = child's toy or something for poor people) and part of it is the ridiculous and curiously British notion that we have to be world-leading or world-beating in everything we do rather than just taking a perfectly workable bog standard solution and implementing it.
solutions that are used in many other countries and are proven to work well apparently will not work in the UK. British exceptionalism?
We're not the only country that is addicted to cars, so no.
But yes - every country is different, and you need a solution that people living there will accept.
You, TJ, seem to think people can simply be forced to think the same way as you. I am fully aligned with your ideals - I would love a minimally automotive society as much as you - but you seem to think getting there would be simple if someone would just do something. I do not agree, I think it'd be really hard.
And yes, it's short-termism and the desire to 'optimise' everything, which is something I see at work as well. The working culture in the UK is such that everything has to be the most efficient possible, so people set things up to evaluate and streamline etc but we do it really badly. Things get a budget allocated which isn't enough (because you need to be efficient) then you complain and they think you're just moaning about stuff. Then the project fails and they say 'well, it didn't work so we'll stop doing it'. Same kind of thing that happens with cycleways. Someone campaigns, they give in and put a nice cycleway along a new road that doesn't connect up with anywhere or go where people want to go. Then no-one uses it, so they say 'well no-one uses it so what's the point?'
It's idiotic. And it's very much a British thing. This is why we need political reform so badly - so that we can try and get away from this.
Because it got dragged into another thread:
@ayjaydoubleyou - Full Member
go take that to the “car brain” thread, show how the progressive and forward thinking court system assumes everyone is easily able to get to the centre of their nearest city by public transport for 9am.
The issue isn't those mean and nasty Ecomentalists trying to take your car away from you.
It's that the hegemony of car centric infrastructure works to the detriment of those who can't afford or don't own a car.
The correct solution to people not being able to get to jury duty for 9am by public transport isn't increasing car ownership.
