There aren’t any because nobody can afford to live there any more.
Mate of mine lectures at the college in Ambleside and none of the lecturers can afford to live there.
Yeah but no.
It’s kind of hard to feel sorry for second home owners and parasite landlords to be honest. Good on Wales gov for introducing the tax.
The housing in Wales is some of the cheapest in the country. Bar a few prime locations there's plenty of cheap available housing for sale.
I don't whine that I can't afford a house in Mayfair however.
This is a load of crap driven by the Plaid Cymru types - Wales going back to it's English-hating 1970's/80's roots.
The poverty-wages are a problem in Wales - moreso than places closer than cities. But that makes tourism more important in Wales (especially rural and coastal) than in most of the rest of blighty. So hitting bnb owners (which own a really small proportion of properties) does nothing at all - and has spill (like people who've had a family home in wales since the 1960's and go there every weekend) which is unfair.
You can't spot-tax your way out of a systemic housing issue. And I'd argue there isn't a housing issue in Wales - there's an affordability issue because of wages - but there's no jobs here because business loves cities in this economy. But first time buyers who want to live in "Mayfair" (or Abersoch) - you know what, tough titties.
The house I live in now, in North Wales, was on the market for over two years. Nobody was interested. That fact still hasn't stopped a handful of plaid-cymru idiots making their feelings known about "the english" buying properties in the area stopping "locals" from buying. (I'm Welsh).
I was forced to go for a walk along the coast when I was last in Pembs. They talked me into it by saying we can have pints in a little pub at the end. When we got there, there was a sign on the door saying ‘closed due to no staff’. I was not bloody happy. Broken Britain.
Bar a few prime locations there’s plenty of cheap available housing for sale.
No, not really. If you happen to be from a small seaside town, your wages are low, but the houses are priced well out of your league. The average house price in Wales is heavily skewed by the cheap houses in e.g. the Valleys, but that's no good if you're from Cardigan.
This is a load of crap driven by the Plaid Cymru types – Wales going back to it’s English-hating 1970’s/80’s roots.
As opposed to the sunlit uplands of the later John Redwood era?
What damage does a holiday rental do to a community in reality?
It means your village of 500 people is now a village of 100 old people and 400 tourists. You don't see a problem?
The poverty-wages are a problem in Wales – moreso than places closer than cities. But that makes tourism more important in Wales (especially rural and coastal) than in most of the rest of blighty.
Don't you think tourism might be driving down wages?
When we got there, there was a sign on the door saying ‘closed due to no staff’. I was not bloody happy. Broken Britain.
Had the same experience in Dent, Yorkshire at the weekend.
“Come and improve your English and spend a year or two in our beautiful countryside, you might want to stay”
YOU’RE BARRED. [ pub now open half as many hours for locals and tourists alike ]
It means your village of 500 people is now a village of 100 old people and 400 tourists.
And some weeks just the 100 old people and a lot of empty houses
But first time buyers who want to live in “Mayfair” (or Abersoch) – you know what, tough titties.
London has a similar very serious problem. Not just in Mayfair, but all over it. However the cheaper parts of London are easily accessible from Mayfair. Abersoch is a fair old trek from say Blaenau Ffestiniog where the cheap houses might be. You don't see an issue if you're forced to move away from your family?
The issue is that actual communities are being broken up by the force of other people's money.
The problem with Abersoch is also the hit that the economies of Wilmslow and Alderley Edge have to take every weekend
So hitting bnb owners (which own a really small proportion of properties) does nothing at all
You seem to have ignored all the airbnb etc and second homes owned rather more recently.
And I’d argue there isn’t a housing issue in Wales – there’s an affordability issue because of wages
Wages or overpriced houses?
The house I live in now, in North Wales, was on the market for over two years. Nobody was interested.
Any idea why? Simply undesirable or that it wasnt affordable?
So hitting bnb owners (which own a really small proportion of properties) does nothing at all
BnB / Hotel owners are living and working there, probably making full-time employment at least for themselves and if it's a hotel a whole range of staff (chefs, front of house, bar, cleaners, etc).
An Air BnB pays a cleaner for 2 hours a week whilst the income probably goes to someone hundreds of miles away.
A 2nd home is pretty much economically inactive most of the week/year.
Which is why the 2nd home tax is huge and the visitor tax is £2. And why the 2nd home tax is levied at those with low occupancy rates.
And some weeks just the 100 old people and a lot of empty houses
Weeks? Try half the winter.
Which means the local shop which made ends meet on 500 people now closes.
Which means the school, and the well paid teaching jobs with it, now close and leave.
(etc).
Would that by any chance be during the 6 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks at Easter, half term etc?
Nope!
Don't have kids, so always holiday out of season e.g. we were walking around the Lakes last November and it was still packed in Keswick etc.
@matt_outandabout - I posted on the previous page about my cousins experience in Cornwall, who has watched this exact thing happen. In the winter the place is a ghost town. The houses are all in darkness, the place completely deserted and all the local businesses and schools have closed
Mate of mine lectures at the college in Ambleside and none of the lecturers can afford to live there
That's really the fault of the National Park (understandably) restricting the ability to build houses in the Lake District.
You have a completely artificial limit on supply, but not demand and then wonder why prices are so high.
And, also I suspect the college lecturer salaries are barely above minimum wage...
The poverty-wages are a problem in Wales – moreso than places closer than cities. But that makes tourism more important in Wales (especially rural and coastal) than in most of the rest of blighty.
Yep - hospitality in the UK runs mainly on minimum wage jobs. So unless you have an endless supply of temporary workers happy to work for a pittance, with no intention of setting down, you're a bit screwed in terms of workforce.
However, put the prices of food / hotels up enough to pay, say the National full time mean salary, and you'll have to accept a big drop off in overall bookings as the prices will probably double....
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
Far fewer people than somewhere like say, Cornwall, which is one of the best things about it.
The rough figures which appear on Google are 'over 5 million' to Cornwall. Wikipedia states that Conwy alone had 9.39 million visitors in 2018. I'm guessing that Cornwall has far fewer daytrip visitors than Wales, so it depends on what you call a tourist. Do the 14.6 million visitors to Cardiff in 2009 count as tourists?
The very obvious reason that Cornwall feels full of tourists is that it's tiny, with narrow roads and small towns, whereas the tourists are more spread out in Wales. And, of course, there are just enough native Cornish to make a cricket team, so everybody else is a tourist, and the county is so small that if they book a holiday they do it somewhere else, unlike Wales where people from south Wales go to north Wales, and so on.
A 2nd home is pretty much economically inactive most of the week/year.
Only if it's not let out, which a lot of them are.
The lady who owns the Abassi restaurant in Betws told us that there are less than 130 permanent residents left.
Pretty much every house in Deiniolen and Dinorwic larger than a terrace has been taken over by second home owners.
Pete's Eats has closed - heard various stories, but lack of tourist custom apparantly not a factor.
First Hydro have closed down their tours and despite the locals asking for a new sports centre or affordable housing, the land will probably end up as a car park.
Despite all this, massive road and infrastructure projects continue. The road surfaces are far superior to those we drive on in Lancashire and the lakefront in Llanberis has been improved beyond recognition.
The lady who owns the Abassi restaurant in Betws told us that there are less than 130 permanent residents left.
Same in the Yorkshire Dales (where we own a second home). Farm consolidation and mechanisation have reduced the number of farming jobs and made some no longer viable eg far fewer dairy herds than there used to be. Young people move away for Uni and jobs. Their parents stay behind and the villages slowly become retirement complexes. Unless you work on a farm or run a B&B, there aren't really any jobs for you.
The arrival of Tesco delivery vans down the valley (miles from the nearest store), pretty much killed off the village shop, which had been going downhill slowly for decades. Sells bugger all now and only open part time in summer. Used to be 365 days a year back in the day....
Only if it’s not let out, which a lot of them are.
If they actually are, then they're not caught by the 2nd home tax, which is what it's seemingly setting out to do.
Unless you work on a farm or run a B&B, there aren’t really any jobs for you.
The jobs are there, but there aren't the people
in Hawes. Cocket’s website says “Now closed for the winter, and will not be re-opening in 2023”. It’s not for a lack of summer trade, they’ve just had chef vacancies that they’ve not been able to fill for over a year.
Farm consolidation and mechanisation have reduced the number of farming jobs and made some no longer viable eg far fewer dairy herds than there used to be. Young people move away for Uni and jobs
It's true that there aren't many jobs in farming, but young people ARE being priced out of their home villages even if they can find jobs. What's needed, of course, is ways to create high quality jobs as well as create affordable property. If there'd been a startup tech company in some small part of mid wales when I was starting out I'd have been there like a shot.
The jobs are there, but there aren’t the people
Nothing like there used to be - real jobs with a career / profession etc, rather than low paid hospitality work, where you're expecting to work all hours and all days for not much more than minimum wage.
What’s needed, of course, is ways to create high quality jobs as well as create affordable property.
Yep.
Although very difficult to achieve as the current trend is for geographic consolidation around specialist areas eg automotive in the midlands, bio science in Oxbridge, Finance in the City. The consolidation offers efficiency savings and the ability to easily exchange resources and expertise.
No one has figured out how to undo that, as there are so many natural advantages in consolidation.
In fact, the current trend (from HMG) is to throw resources at it, to try and grow it to boost GDP.
Pete’s Eats has closed
😔
My first drink of the day, every day, is a pint of tea in a Pete's Eats mug.
I've done this to death on another forum, and people brought a lot of actual figures / demographics / home ownership stats / business investment figures and income figures, so I'm not going to repeat the loop (but feel free) - but just a few things:
No, not really. If you happen to be from a small seaside town, your wages are low, but the houses are priced well out of your league. The average house price in Wales is heavily skewed by the cheap houses in e.g. the Valleys, but that’s no good if you’re from Cardigan.
If you're young and you happen to be from a small seaside town your primary problem is that there's no bloody jobs but tourism - like the rest of the country you have to leave Wales to get a decent job on a decent wage. And that's not because of any other reason than businesses want a large pool of talent to choose from - which is why Google doesn't base itself in Pwlhelli.
Tourism is a marvellous lifeline. If it wasn't for tourism there'd be no jobs at all (bar farming).
Have you seen Banshees of Inisherin? It's not far off that.
That's not the fault of the (vanishingly small number of) second home or AirBNB owners. That's because it's Wales and in the capitalist economy there simply aren't any jobs because business won't locate there. That's capitalism - if you want to change that paradigm, then you change capitalism - not spot-tax people.
What there is is plenty of cheap and available housing though. You might not to get live right on the beach in your gorgeous picture-postcard village, but a within a couple of miles there's whole streets of houses at 1/3rd of the average house price for the UK.
Remind me again, why don't they live there instead of whining that they can't live in "Mayfair"?
Don’t you think tourism might be driving down wages?
No. Tourism provides the ONLY wages. Because there's no other bloody jobs.
I work from home. I have spent 30 years galavanting all over the country living in two different cities and doing jobs based in 3 different cities to get my job. Now I'm "privileged" (if privilege means worked my arse off to get it) to have this job. So I've moved back to Wales - to a small village in North Wales. As I said - my house. Empty for years. Cheap as chips. No locals moving in. I move in and locals start grumbling.
They can get in the sea tbh. Or move somewhere else and get a bloody job like the rest of the country has to do. Life isn't fair, but there's a lot of people in rural wales who'd rather sit in their pants complaining about "the english" ruining their lives than getting off their arses and doing what is necessary to go get a job, like the rest of the country has to.
As I said again. Am Welsh, live here. Can see what's happening with my own eyes.
Yes, millionaires own property in Abersoch. If they didn't it'd be a hole like any other seaside town - because there's no jobs but tourism there and if there wasn't tourism there wouldn't be ANY jobs.
On Pete's Eats:
Oh that’s sad news.
Not because he wasn't making money. I hear it's because he can't get the staff because nobody will work for him any more.
Read into that what you will.
Apparently if you have a spare six hundred grand you can buy the cafe.
Oh woe is Wales and it's poor poor tourism-only industry.
@matt_outandabout:
Weeks? Try half the winter.
Which means the local shop which made ends meet on 500 people now closes.
Which means the school, and the well paid teaching jobs with it, now close and leave.
(etc).
That's not because of a handful of people owning second homes. "Tourist towns" are thriving in North Wales - try getting a parking space in Betws Y Coed in January for example.
You can go to any number of pubs on the beach in Trearddur Bay in Feb and there's plenty of very cheap property a ten minute bike ride away. (Same for anywhere on Anglesey).
Barring places like Abersoch - which would be absolutely dead all year round if it wasn't for tourism and second home owners - there's plenty going on.
The issue is jobs. Not second home ownership. There's no jobs, because businesses don't want to locate here. Cities are where it's at.
Wales isn't full of well-paid jobs but shockingly high house-prices that even the well-paid locals can't afford. It's the opposite - there's no jobs, and houses are generally very very cheap.
If there’d been a startup tech company in some small part of mid wales when I was starting out I’d have been there like a shot.
But they'd locate where the best and brightest are? If they're a startup tech company and they DON'T locate in a city, then you have to ask yourself what the directors are smoking.
"Hey, I've a great idea. We need the best and brightest talent".
"Trawsfynned m8. There's a lake, a small hamlet and about 2000 sheep".
"Cool. Do you think they know python?"
That’s not because of a handful of people owning second homes. “Tourist towns” are thriving in North Wales – try getting a parking space in Betws Y Coed in January for example.
The problem is that the tourists change all the time, they aren't the same people all year round. So it's not a community.
D'oh! (slight comparison)
Actually, it is also happening in Borneo too. Tourists are taxed equivalent of £2 per room per night.
Well, over there the purpose is to tax Chinese tourists because they have loads of money!
Effective 1st September 2017, foreign tourists will be charged a flat rate of RM10 per room per night for all Tourism Tax (TTx)
I have a feeling in future we might need to apply for travel permits in order to visit different cities or counties etc ... arrggghhh ... cash cows etc.
The problem is that the tourists change all the time, they aren’t the same people all year round. So it’s not a community.
So, it's not the same as it was 200 years ago when everyone was a sheep farmer?
Even in the 18th Century Betws was a tourist town, reliant on rich people coming in and staying at the hotels. Trefiw had a paddle-steamer port - they'd sail up the river Conwy and get taken by horse and carriage to hotels.
Boo-hoo! There's no jobs.
It's not second-home owners. They could all leave, and if it wasn't for the tourism all that would be left is cobwebs and empty houses. Banning second-home-owners wouldn't magic up the jobs that the kids need.
These places are alive in part because of second home owners. My house, and many of the houses in the village I live in, would be empty if it wasn't for people like me who can work from home, or people running holiday let businesses.
It's pretty bloody difficult to have a "community" when there's nobody there any more.
The issue is jobs. Not second home ownership. There’s no jobs, because businesses don’t want to locate here. Cities are where it’s at.
Except as pointed out throughout this thread, with examples, there are jobs. However we've reached a point where there are so many under-occupied 2nd homes and buy-to-let AirB&B's that there's no locals left to fill them.
You said it yourself:
It’s pretty bloody difficult to have a “community” when there’s nobody there any more.
And without some form of community North Wales would just be Liverpool with hills.
It’s pretty bloody difficult to have a “community” when there’s nobody there any more.
Wow. You think second homes aren't the issue then you end on this? I don't know where to start but your experiences are compelely different to the reality of life in Pembrokeshire. People want to live here and want to be able to afford a house near where they work but they can't...because they are priced out of the market.
The only reason we're able to afford to live in Pembroke is because we bought in 2003.
Some good points CC, but why do the tourists have to stay in the housing stock? Campsites, pubs, B&B’s would all be better. And locals working in the tourism trade could live in the houses (if they weren’t priced out so would require some sort of control) and form a community… total madness I realise. Just back of a fag packet idle dreaming.
Except as pointed out throughout this thread, with examples, there are jobs
One low paid hospitality job in Hawes.
Hardly a conclusive argument.
Some good points CC, but why do the tourists have to stay in the housing stock? Campsites, pubs, B&B’s would all be better.
Pubs and B&Bs are potential housing stock, they could be re-allocated to house all the unemployed locals...
So people are saying there's a problem affecting them, and chevychase is denying the existence of a problem because it's not affecting him?
So people are saying there’s a problem affecting them, and chevychase is denying the existence of a problem because it’s not affecting him?
Woudln't be the first time the wrong cause is blamed for a real problem though..
Far easier to blame newcomers / second home owners than to come to terms with the fact no one has a clue how to provide decent jobs for remote bits of Wales and probably never will have...
Tourism is all they've got and all they're probably going to have.
I often wonder why these second homes aren’t vandalised during the winter when there’s literally nobody there. Then I remember it’s because there’s literally nobody there. All the yoof have been priced out to Swansea. 😁
No. Tourism provides the ONLY wages. Because there’s no other bloody jobs.
There’s no jobs,
Welsh Government beg to differ it seems:
https://statswales.gov.wales/Catalogue/Business-Economy-and-Labour-Market/People-and-Work/Employment/Jobs/Whole-Workforce/workplaceemployment-by-industry-area
I often wonder why these second homes aren’t vandalised during the winter when there’s literally nobody there.
Reminds me of the great NTNON Welsh tourism ad...
Come home to a real fire, buy a cottage in Wales
Welsh Government beg to differ it seems:
Well that's that sorted then.
Loads of well paying jobs so the locals just need to get one and then they can afford to buy all the second homes back from the foreigners at market rates.
And no need for a tourism tax!
* Thread closed *
Tourism is all they’ve got and all they’re probably going to have.
Why? Does it have to be that way?
Well that’s that sorted then.
I made a sweeping generalisation in response to a couple of other sweeping generalisations.
