@Russell96 - is there a similar north/south divide to England when it comes to funding? Genuine question.
Do you not think North Wales benefits from tourism to the same degree? We go down to south Wales if we've going for a week or two, as its quite a schlep to get down there, but we go to North Wales all the time. We'll regularly have weekends away in Snowdonia or on the coast. Love the place! Its very different from the South but equally beautiful.
Maybe the tax should be spent in the area its generated, as North Wales would surely generate loads? Climb Snowdon on a summer Saturday and theres thousands of people doing the same. Llandudno and places on the coast are always really busy
Manchester’s great too – couldn’t live in a city these days but visiting was/is always good.
Manchester is a fantastic city! We moved north, out of the City itself about 12 years ago, but last Saturday we went in to do a tour of the galleries and exhibitions, nice meal in Dimitri's (an old favourite haunt) then a good few beers at some of our favourite pubs, then the tram home. We had a great day and there were clearly loads of parties of tourists around, of all ages
Fair point made by Winston. I'm in favour (already paying it in most places I go around Spain), but wonder if there should be a cap.
Who goes on holiday to Wales?
We do. We go up in the camper van from the Basque Country. 2400m round trip to Môn or Llyn for a few days, would stay there longer but obliged to visit family in the hen Ogledd...
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So you can recognise who has paid?
Like these?
*s****s*
Some people are complaining saying it’ll drive people away.
The people saying this are mostly accommodation providers. It's just a cover story for their real objection which is that they can't be arsed with the admin faff of collecting the tax.
If it was £2 per person per night then that would be £120 less we would have to spend directly with local businesses.
I think we all know that trickle down doesn't work. It certainly won't trickle out of local businesses into road repairs or more public toilets at honeypot areas or the funding of countryside rangers.
Me. Frequently. We’ve Got 2 weeks booked in Solva in June which, as you can see, is a hideous hell-hole…
I know Solva well. Have family in the area so visit often. Yeah, fair point, it is nice around there and always crawling with tourists in the summer. Especially if you’re into outdoors stuff. Don’t why I posted that now. Think I just had images of old valleys coal towns and Rhyl. Pembs is so far away it almost feels like you’ve driven through wales and have arrived back in England again with all the tourists/second homes etc. Like a slightly quieter Cornwall.
I think the amount of shit that Dwr Cymru is pumping into the sea around Wales will have a much put more people off visiting than a tourist tax. I'm from north Pembrokesire and there is no way I'd swim in the sea anymore.
If it was £2 per person per night then that would be £120 less we would have to spend directly with local businesses.
I think we all know that trickle down doesn’t work. It certainly won’t trickle out of Air BnB owners pockets
FTFY
Well we stay* in Wales for holidays/ weekends away a few times a year, so would pay it. Quite happy to do so.
*as in we're here already
Sorry for being so rude jambourgie. Kneejerk reaction... I grew up near the border, on the English side, and had my younger years filled with annoying "jokey" insults about Wales, which the country and people don't deserve. Gets tired fast.
I think we all know that trickle down doesn’t work. It certainly won’t trickle out of local businesses into road repairs or more public toilets at honeypot areas or the funding of countryside ranger.
Probably does a lot more than you think eg council tax on holiday homes, all the council run car parks, business rates on the all the pubs / restaurants which tourists visit...
The real problem is council incomes are just too low, council tax hasn't kept up with inflation / care costs for decades and the government grant has been scaled back year after year....
I was amazed to discover, the other day, that council tax is only 10% of our local council's income, they make more money from car parks...
Good idea in theory. The amount is so small that most people wouldn’t really notice, yet cumulatively could do some real good. However, this being the UK, I am cynical about the money actually ending up in the right place. Also, whilst it makes sense for Wales etc, so poorer communities can benefit from increased funding, why central Manchester? Reading the link, the money also seems earmarked for attracting [i]more[/i] visitors rather than e.g. helping/improving local communities?
So local people won’t actually benefit (except those in the tourism industry or AirBNB owners who can put their prices up due to increased demand??)
Reading the link, the money also seems earmarked for attracting more visitors rather than e.g. helping/improving local communities?
Yes, I saw that and did wonder why...
I guess more tourism = more money in the city = more jobs etc
But also, more congestion, more pollution, more noise and higher house prices etc...
I’d don’t support charges for UK nationals to visit any part of Britain & NI. For same reason I don’t support ringfenced locals only housing.
That sort of thing further deepens social divides and inequality. I grew up in a difficult inner city neighbourhood, and rail against any hint of protectionism.
I will not be constrained to my ghetto.
I feel just the same now I live in a picturesque town in the Derbyshire Peak District. It belongs to us all, not just to the locals.
Obvs the funding gap would be far less an issue in the awful Tory party wasn’t so willfully violent towards council budgets.
Exceptionally impacted places should be able to apply for additional funding. Snowdonia has National Park Authority resources for example.
Sorry for being so rude jambourgie. Kneejerk reaction… I grew up near the border, on the English side, and had my younger years filled with annoying “jokey” insults about Wales, which the country and people don’t deserve. Gets tired fast.
None taken. Half my family are Welsh. Which is probably why I’ve never thought of it as a tourist destination. What I meant is you hear of Americans for example going on holiday to ‘Scatlin’ or to London or Ireland… rarely hear of Wales as a destination. Not that it isn’t beautiful in parts, I just see it as home, same as the rest of the UK. But then again, despite owning bikes I’m not much of an outdoors type. A holiday to me must involve sitting on a beach in the sun 😉
France have been doing it for years, most people don’t know they are paying,
You what, how can they not know?
People aren't stup..
Actually, you're probably right 🤔
Are they? I think thats absolute crap. Where did you dream that up from?
The second home tax, if it comes in will cripple tourism and is such a bad, ill-thought out idea that its staggering, even for this out of touch business killing Welsh government. They really are brain dead cretins of the highest order.
It’s kind of hard to feel sorry for second home owners and parasite landlords to be honest. Good on Wales gov for introducing the tax. Second homes are grotesque in times of such shortages of affordable housing. And what exactly do they add to the local community? They generally bring everything with them. And will be using the local pubs etc less and less as there’s no staff when all the young people have to leave to find somewhere to live…
Are they? I think thats absolute crap. Where did you dream that up from?
Not everyone in the countryside works to sell tea an scones to tourists.
Every time someone has the bright idea to buy a 2nd home and let it out as self catering, justifying to themselves it on the basis that the people staying there will perhaps eat and drink in the local pub, and definitely won't just stop at Tesco on the way to stock up for the week. That's one more teacher, plumber, electrician, nurse, farm worker, priced out of the market.
2nd, tourism jobs, particularly in seasonal areas aren't great economically. It might be enough to keep the 2nd home owners mortgage paid if they only rent it out half the year, but that doesn't help the local economy that needs people in the businesses the other 6 months of the year. It's a bonus, or a step up for otherwise economically struggling areas (e.g. the Valleys trail centers), but overall it's not a great thing to have an imbalance of Vs higher paying full time jobs.
It's not quite that black and white, but that's the counter to your point and in a lot of places it's a lot closer to the reality.
Clearly they are not content with the damage and grief they caused during the pandemic
Ah! The first cuckoo of spring.
Are those poor old second home owners being persecuted yet again...
Prices will soar because the demand for accommodation will be far greater than what’s available. People renting homes will face huge hikes in business rates that will force them to sell up. I know people who are currently in this situation and its hard enough as it is. They’ve all said if it comes in that’s them finished. They could have 100% occupancy and it still wouldn’t be worth it in some cases and that’s impossible to achieve anyway.
How many visitors to Wales stay in holiday homes vs how many camp etc? Serious question.
Are you aware of the issues caused by too many holiday homes? If holiday home owners sell up, that means more houses for actual locals to buy and live in all year round. Whilst contributing to the community. Maybe the second home owners could start another different business that employs more local people?
Not that it isn’t beautiful in parts, I just see it as home, same as the rest of the UK.
I live here and it is nearly all beautiful, never mind 'in parts'.
Same for the rest of the UK. And most of Earth, tbh.
Not that it isn’t beautiful in parts, I just see it as home,
Aren't we all guilty of that (at least some of the time)? When I lived in Edinburgh I'd walk past the amazing architecture and the castle (on a hill, in the middle of the friggin' city) without giving it a second thought. Same since I moved to Aviemore. Mostly I just don't look around at the lochs, forests and mountains the way I did as a holidaymaker, then I see/read/hear other folk going on about the place 🥴
I think I get the whole second home issue in rural communities. But if these were blocked, stopped, illegal and the homes are available to 'locals' what would be the long term employment opportunities for locals?
I guess there is a balance to be found on attracting people to rural communities to spend their 'city' money? As farming and agriculture become more automated I can't imagine there being more jobs. Fishing, local services only account for so much in rural coastal communities.
Do the rural communities want more hotels, caravan parks and campsites? So local homes for local people but still have money and investment that tourist bring? I've not seen anyone in these areas screaming for new Premier Inns but I don't live in one so perhaps disconnected? Is there a genuine belief these communicates would survive without the money tourists bring in?
Would you be put off visiting if your hotel invoice had ‘Tourism tax: £2’ on it?
Yes. Nor by the price but the principle. Income tax gets funnelled back out to Wales, and I live in the UK. In fact, if I had to pay that tourist tax I’d deliberately avoid spending money in local shops.
Many people complaining about tourists fail to realise that without them their towns would be financially crippled.
I can’t see many locals objecting to more campsites. And if most of the tourists are outdoorsy times then that would be ideal for them no? Win/win.
Aren’t we all guilty of that (at least some of the time)? When I lived in Edinburgh I’d walk past the amazing architecture and the castle (on a hill, in the middle of the friggin’ city) without giving it a second thought.
Absolutely. My sister lives in London. She dismisses anything well known as ‘touristy’. Whenever I visit we have to wrangle on what to do as I’m begrudgingly dragged round yet another gentrified borough - ooh look, another coffee shop! Whilst I just want to get drunk in Soho and go and look at Tower Bridge.
I've gone from being unnecessarily rude to you, to liking every word of every post! 🤗
Ah! The first cuckoo of spring.
Ah! Ignorance is bliss.
You are indeed blessed then.
Absolutely. My sister lives in London. She dismisses anything well known as ‘touristy’
Same here. My sister lives in central London. Whenever I go down, I arrive clutching a list of 'stuff I want to do while I'm here'. which will be a list of all the galleries I want to visit and which exhibitions I want to go and see. I'll have my route around the City mapped out so I can fit it all in. Our kid comes with me, invariably loves it as she always comments 'we never do anything like this'.
On the second homes issue, my cousin lives in Cornwall (she married a bloke from down there) and the tourist hotspot she lives in she says is absolutely deserted now at some times of year. You can walk through the village in the evening and there are no lights on at all and absolutely nobody around. Just empty second homes. This means that the local businesses are unsustainable and most have closed (which doesn't impact the second home owners as they went to Waitrose en route and got everything they need for the week). Obviously it also impacts the schools (no pupils as nobody lives there year-round any more), and hospitals and other public services as the place is either absolutely rammed in the holidays, then like a ghost town at other times
which doesn’t impact the second home owners as they went to Waitrose en route and got everything they need for the week
And yet the local pubs etc will be full of tourists buying food and drink every night...
Certainly that's the case whenever we go on holiday in the UK somewhere rural.
And yet the local pubs etc will be full of tourists buying food and drink every night…
For 6 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks at Easter, half term etc, the rest of their time theres 2 blokes and a dog in there
Certainly that’s the case whenever we go on holiday in the UK somewhere rural.
Would that by any chance be during the 6 weeks in the summer, 2 weeks at Easter, half term etc?
How many visitors to Wales stay in holiday homes vs how many camp etc? Serious question.
Are you aware of the issues caused by too many holiday homes? If holiday home owners sell up, that means more houses for actual locals to buy and live in all year round. Whilst contributing to the community. Maybe the second home owners could start another different business that employs more local people?
You tell me. What damage does a holiday rental do to a community in reality? Typical Welsh Government blame game and people fall for it yet again.
Trying to book a cottage in wales last year was difficult and expensive enough, imagine if the availability drops more. Many won't be able to afford it.
They are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. Its bonkers what they are proposing. Be careful what you wish for.
These businesses already employ local people and local businesses rely on the tourism these places bring. Locals buy the majority of "second homes" and they won't be spending like tourists do, not a chance. They also won't be employing cleaners, gardeners to the same extent either. Then the same locals will be whinging there's no local jobs and unemployment has gone through the roof, forcing people to move out of the area.
There's a balance to be had of course but being rational and using common sense doesn't apply to Drakeford and his band of cretins. Its ALWAYS someone else's fault. Look at the Betsi health board debacle and the Welsh health minister pointing fingers at everyone bar themselves.
During the pandemic people were worried if tourism would recover when we went back to normal. This is hardly going to help is it?
I'd be happy paying an extra couple of quid if it meant I could smash the place up a bit.
Same here. My sister lives in central London. Whenever I go down, I arrive clutching a list of ‘stuff I want to do while I’m here’. which will be a list of all the galleries I want to visit and which exhibitions I want to go and see. I’ll have my route around the City mapped out so I can fit it all in. Our kid comes with me, invariably loves it as she always comments ‘we never do anything like this’.
Good job I'm Northern and understand that you don't actually have a child with your sister....
On the second homes issue, my cousin lives in Cornwall (she married a bloke from down there) and the tourist hotspot she lives in she says is absolutely deserted now at some times of year. You can walk through the village in the evening and there are no lights on at all and absolutely nobody around. Just empty second homes. This means that the local businesses are unsustainable and most have closed (which doesn’t impact the second home owners as they went to Waitrose en route and got everything they need for the week). Obviously it also impacts the schools (no pupils as nobody lives there year-round any more), and hospitals and other public services as the place is either absolutely rammed in the holidays, then like a ghost town at other times
Interesting. Weren't Londoners buying up property in the West Country to enable them to WFH? And those who already had second homes were living in them permanently and WFH? Confused!
You are indeed blessed then.
Sush, adults talking.
Interesting. Weren’t Londoners buying up property in the West Country to enable them to WFH? And those who already had second homes were living in them permanently and WFH?
That would appear to have been wishful thinking on most peoples behalf and things have very much reverted back to the pre-lockdown status quo. A lot of rural places also have broadband equivalent to using a 56k modem.
And yet the local pubs etc will be full of tourists buying food and drink every night…
Certainly that’s the case whenever we go on holiday in the UK somewhere rural.
Who works in these pubs though. Where do they live? How do they pay their mortgage or £££££ rent? Gone are the days when you can staff up with Eastern Europeans happy to hot-bunk in a shipping container at the bottom of the pub garden.
Binners +1
Outside of the school holidays that apparently thriving local pub probably ends up laying off all the staff and shuts 4 days a week because half the village it served is empty.
Compounded by a double whammy of the fact an over reliance of tourism means that all the people also laid off from the climbing wall, surf shop, tea room, bike shop, etc etc for 8 months don't have the income to spend in the pub either.
And tourists simply don't have the same needs as locals so it creates conflicts. I used to live overlooking a car park that could have 500+ cars parked in it in summer, all spending money in the tea rooms, buying stuff in the gift shop, etc etc. It was still a 2 mile* walk if I wanted to catch a bus to collage though. Because despite being busier than the average town center, none of that actually benefits people just living there.
*varied, depending on the year the secondary school (mini) bus would adjust it's route so it might pass the house, or it might be a mile, or it might be me left to make my own way.
During the pandemic people were worried if tourism would recover when we went back to normal. This is hardly going to help is it?
We worried for about 2 weeks then it became clear that Pembrokeshire was going to be massively full, under-resourced and manic for every summer from now on.
So taking a few quid off each visitor to help towards emptying bins, cleaning beaches, opening toilets (all things that the cronically under-funded council should be doing but can't) it fine with me. It really REALLY won't even register as a cost to the vast majority of visitors. People on holiday pay for stuff without question, especially if it is just added to their accomodation fee at point of transaction.
I've paid it in France without even knowing about it until the reciept comes and it's really ok.
Your rant loses points for not calling him 'Dripford' like all the other mad folk in the WalesOnline comments.
Who works in these pubs though. Where do they live?
Indeed. Go to somewhere like Keswick and every single pub, bar and restaurant is advertising for staff. There aren't any because nobody can afford to live there any more. And you can't travel from outside the area as there is no public transport. So these places are reducing their opening hours or shutting completely as they simply don't have the staff to run a business. They used to be able to when Pēteris from Latvia used to live in a static caravan in the garden, but him and his mates all went back home for some reason.
The bottom line is that the second home/Air BnB model is changing the nature of whole places or in some case now rendering parts of the economy completely unsustainable
People astonished that Manchester is a tourist draw, why do you seem proud to be so ****ing clueless?
I’d be happy paying an extra couple of quid if it meant I could smash the place up a bit.
Actual LOL.
Complimentary cans of Red Bull in every hotel room?
Indeed. Go to somewhere like Keswick and every single pub, bar and restaurant is advertising for staff. There aren’t any because nobody can afford to live there an more. And you can’t travel from outside the area as there is no public transport. So these places are reducing their opening hours or shutting completely as they simply don’t have the staff to run a business.
Same in Hawes. Cocket's website says "Now closed for the winter, and will not be re-opening in 2023". It's not for a lack of summer trade, they've just had chef vacancies that they've not been able to fill for over a year.
