[Closed] VW in UK?

They won't. There was a special program that detected if the test was being done and put it in some super economical not-very-drivable state. When driving normally it reverted to a normal program. So owners won't notice anything.

They'll notice the difference when VW are forced to make cars run on the "super economical not-very-drivable state" all the time, not just when the bonnet is open.

Or they'll notice the difference to their pocket when the car moves up by three VED bands!

They won't. There was a special program that detected if the test was being done and put it in some super economical not-very-drivable state. When driving normally it reverted to a normal program. So owners won't notice anything.

edit - beaten to it. It just stuck me, the recall will proably install a small bonnet prop to keep it open a couple of inches. Like modders used to do on old Beetles to increase the cooling air flow. 😀

There was a law company on the radio yesterday starting a class action against VW, though I can't remember the reason. VW have put aside 4.7bn to fund all this, won't be enough I reckon.

If you have to cheat a test like this, you're admitting that your product is damaging the environment - if you weren't causing damage, there'd be nothing to hide...

Yes, possibly and it might be that the test has set unobtainable targets which causes everyone to cheat. The non-viable 'product' might be the motor car itself rather than just VW's cars.

Also cars cause damage regardless, its shades of grey rather than black and white, bad and good.

On Radio 4 they had a good bit about this this morning.

The ECU doesnt detect when its on a test as such, but obviously it is common knowledge what the test cycle is. The ECU is just set to perform favourably for emissions for that given condition. The test regieme has created its own way of getting around it.

They were also saying that all manufacturers are at it.

And that Europe could be worse as it is only pre production cars that are used in EU tests, and these vehicles are especially worked on to produce the best emmissions/mpg's they can. They called them 'Golden Cars'

Apparently independant tests on EU cars have found emissions 10x higher than published figures.

The ECU doesnt detect when its on a test as such, but obviously it is common knowledge what the test cycle is. The ECU is just set to perform favourably for emissions for that given condition. The test regieme has created its own way of getting around it.

They were also saying that all manufacturers are at it.

[i] brooess - Member
Surely this is a tacit admission that internal combustion engines have had their day and are doing too much damage to justify their benefit and such widespread use?[/i]

I disagree. As Dmorts points out, the flawed strategy of trying to step-down emissions via introducing ever lower output bandings. Was always going to result in this outcome. Now, either VW are singularly delinquent and will be punished accordingly, or the rest of the industry may have had to resort to a similar strategy to remain competitive in the market place. In which case, well I think we can see where that leads.

ICs are not as much the problem as the fuels we burn in them. I have to laugh at the stubbornly entrenched who refuse to consider anything other than a future where all cars are propelled via electric motors.

It'll come down to a debate over the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. If VW cars can run in a way that makes them pass the test cycle then they pass the test cycle.

There will be no change in tax bands or retrospective taxing etc since the respective governments themselves have certified and categorised the cars.

It'll come down to a debate over the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. If VW cars can run in a way that makes them pass the test cycle then they pass the test cycle.

There will be no change in tax bands or retrospective taxing etc since the respective governments themselves have certified and categorised the cars and people have bought them according to that criteria.

There was suprise when polution levels didnt fall as expected with Euro5, it would be nice to think manufacturers will now be forced to genuinly meet Euro6 but I doubt it'll happen.

All the big profit Jags, LR, BMW, Audi boxes would be history overnight.

@jimjam the tax bands dont need changing, the cars just need to comply with them.

I can see a class action lawsuit in the US over this following on swiftly from the fines, esp if the mods reduce mpg......

Regarding comments above about it being the demise of internal combustion or the big luxury saloons that nonsense. This will arrest the growth of diesel which was already on the cads not least as major cities like Paris where already discussing banning diesels from the city. I have never subscribed to the view that diesel was cleaner.

wilburt

@jimjam the tax bands dont need changing, the cars just need to comply with them.

I didn't say that they did. I was replying to people up ^^^^^ there somewhere who were musing about the possibility of a VW car being changed from one tax band to another, or owners being taxed retrospectively in light of new information.

[i] jimjam - Member
It'll come down to a debate over the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. If VW cars can run in a way that makes them pass the test cycle then they pass the test cycle[/i]

Yeap and the legislators probably need to ask themselves just what their true aim with such testing and certification was intended to achieve.

I feel it would always have lead to some "work around". Then as you point out, all that's left to decide is whether those work arounds are within the spirit of the process/test.

[i] wilburt - Member
@jimjam the tax bands dont need changing, the cars just need to comply with them[/i]

As JimJam has pointed out. They do.

Do you think a 5.0 v8 petrol range rover could meet the Euro6 requirements if properly tested?

Yes, possibly and it might be that the test has set unobtainable targets which causes everyone to cheat.

Well - unobtainable whilst still meeting the somewhat spoiled tastes of the modern motorist. They still want their 150bhp cruiser. They could probably meet the targets with small cars and 3cyl diesels, but that would cause outrage amongst the population.

It'll come down to a debate over the letter of the law vs the spirit of the law. If VW cars can run in a way that makes them pass the test cycle then they pass the test cycle.

I don't think it will. What they have done is already illegal and VW have admitted it:

It might lead to different ways of testing though.

[i] wilburt - Member
Do you think a 5.0 v8 petrol range rover could meet the Euro6 requirements if properly tested?[/i]

For goodness sake! Firstly, afaik VW don't produce the range rover.

Secondly, yes VWs do pass the test, using a "defeat device".
So technically, they pass, just not in the spirit of the test and cert process.

Yes, possibly and it might be that the test has set unobtainable targets which causes everyone to cheat.

Well - unobtainable whilst still meeting the somewhat spoiled tastes of the modern motorist. They still want their 150bhp cruiser. They could probably meet the targets with small cars and 3cyl diesels, but that would cause outrage amongst the population.

Yes, unobtainable targets for a car that the public would still buy. In the end we only have ourselves to blame.

Still, is it going to be a great time buy a T5 van soon as VW prices slump?? 🙂

Does seem a fairly basic software feature:

[img] [/img]

I can't believe that anyone, especially the governing bodies, are naive enough to believe that given the onerous standards that keep getting introduced that any of this is a surprise.

Until the tests are done in real world conditions they stand no chance of being representative.

More importantly than any of the health or moral issues does this mean VAG vehicles are no longer the default 'best vehicle you can buy ever' of the STW masses?

Do we hate them and their SIN now?

Do you think a 5.0 v8 petrol range rover could meet the Euro6 requirements if properly tested?

Yes, Mercedes SLs with a V8 that were built in the 80s still get a green sticker in Germany because pretty much any petrol engine with a cat passes both Euro an Californian regs. It's diesel soot and NOX that are the problem.

I'll bet my shiny [i]petrol[/i] car that Volkswagen won't be the only manufacturer to have gamed the emissions tests.

High NOx levels are an inherent feature of the way fuel is burned in a diesel engine.

Should be fun working on the new brand for Audi
Vorsprung Durch Technik - progress through technology becomes Betrug mit Technik - cheating with technology

Dmorts has it IMO - we only have ourselves to blame. If we, customers, demanded proper testing or were willing to pay the price/accept reduced performance of a car which didn't wreck the environment, manufacturers would be less likely to cheat

More importantly than any of the health or moral issues does this mean VAG vehicles are no longer the default 'best vehicle you can buy ever' of the STW masses?

You'll find them all doing it, I bet.

Question: If someone was about to order a new VW next week (one of the models in question) should they now be looking at another brand?

It's probably the best time to be buying a VW... i would leave it a month or 2 until there monthly sales figures have dropped off. Then they will be desperate to sell them

[i] rene59 - Member
Question: If someone was about to order a new VW next week (one of the models in question) should they now be looking at another brand?[/i]

Although I believe in "innocent until proven guilty" and so for now would personally avoid speculating about other OEMs.

I have a nagging feeling Molgrips is probably correct ^^^.

rene59 - Member

Question: If someone was about to order a new VW next week (one of the models in question) should they now be looking at another brand?

Yes, Toyota. 😛

@Solo etc and any others who arent getting it.

The VW (possibly others) software fiddle is just the icing, even without that particular wheeze (no pun) most cars, petrol included, wouldn't get anywhere near Euro6 in real world driving, the bigger car the less likely.

That's why we cant hit safe air quality levels.

Wallop, thanks. Like I said on the other thread: Will there be a knock on effect on vehicle excise? It's been obvious for ages that the scheme is BS, I pay 10x the VED (a CO2 tax) on my 10 year old 2-litre petrol as my mate does on his new 2-litre diesel. I reckon I create about 1.5x the CO2 and less of everything else. Could be the start of a swing against diesel? Willburt, I reckon big petrols are fine. Don't confuse NOx/PM with CO2.

Will there be a knock on effect on vehicle excise?

I can't imagine how it would - that would be outrageous.

It's been obvious for ages that the scheme is BS

Not really. It's just that they've been fudging the tests. It's meant to penalise high CO2 choices, so it's not pro-rata based on actual amounts.

[i] wilburt - Member
@Solo etc and any others who arent getting it.[/i]
Whoa there!

[i]The VW (possibly others) software fiddle is just the icing, even without that particular wheeze (no pun) most cars, petrol included, wouldn't get anywhere near Euro6 in real world driving, the bigger car the less likely.[/i]
So you're saying that the targets set were unobtainable?
Yes, you're probably correct

[i]That's why we cant hit safe air quality levels.[/i]

[i]"Safe?"[/i]
Good luck on defining that.

All these car brands might be impacted by VW coz VW supply them engines of some sort ...

Audi
Lamborghini
Bentley Motors
Bugatti Automobiles
Porsche
Ducati
Ducati Corse
MAN SE
Scania
SEAT
Suzuki
Škoda

It's been obvious for ages that the scheme is BS

Not really. It's just that they've been fudging the tests. It's meant to penalise high CO2 choices, so it's not pro-rata based on actual amounts.

This particular problem was with SCR in cars.

I doubt there are ant TDI lambo's, ducati or porche.

Trucks maybe, but i suspect the systems in those work properly.

Interestingly Subaru don't lie about their emissions, in fact the seem to be pessimistic with economy and emissions figures. They also sell most of their cars in the states!

It has been pretty obvious that the big grperman brands have been up to this for years. Just look at the relationship between tax legislation an emissions.

brooess - Member

Dmorts has it IMO - we only have ourselves to blame. If we, customers, demanded proper testing or were willing to pay the price/accept reduced performance of a car which didn't wreck the environment, manufacturers would be less likely to cheat

It's human nature to want next years car be better than this years car, unfortunately we've defined better as bigger and faster with more toys rather than lighter and more economical. Add to that the me me me attitude to safety where everyone's been scaling up and things have gotten out of hand. To the point where our 300hp 1.7 tonne hatchbacks aren't very nice to the environment.

As someone said above this is the trouble with unrestricted capitalism, they don't supply what we need they build what they can sell.

I don't blame them for playing the game in any way and I think nothing less of them for doing this. They're a business who's main goal is to make money and they're competing against other car makers who are all no doubt doing exactly the same thing. I can't see any grounds for these fines people are saying they'll have imposed, the cars passed the tests!

The only people to blame for this are those who wrote and policed the rules. Either they're too onerous or they're not doing their job properly.

For reference, a 5.0 V8 Jag or LR does properly meet Euro 6b emissions standard. Gaseous emissions are easily mopped up by a properly managed catalyst, and the particulate emissions are managed by properly managed combustion. Euro 6c is where it gets tougher as the particulate emission standards will be 10x lower, so will need more work to meet, and the Real Driving Emissions requirements will see mobile test kit fitted to cars by the manufacturers and by authorities to test over a much wider range of speeds and loads than a standard drive cycle.

For info also, for VW to have announced the recall now, they will have been in discussions with EPA and ARB for well over a year. Software and calibration changes across the range of cars they have had to fix will have taken many many months to get fully validated. Normally ARB only go public when the recall is announced, which is after the technical and timing discussions have concluded.

And don't confuse CO2 and emissions. Often fuel economy and emissions can be traded - and it is highly likely with VW that to meet certain fuel economy targets, they will have traded some off cycle emissions. FE gets sales, people don't understand emissions.

All manufacturers know the penalty for knowingly contravening legislation. Only the stupid ones actually do it - test methods change with time, and your old cars are in the market for a long time (and in the US the emissions legislation covers key components up to 10 years and 150,000 miles), so the likelihood of getting caught increases with time......

I pay £265 "road tax" per annum for my Toyota Corolla 1.6 petrol while their "cleaner" diesel pay much much lesser ... ya, now we know the truth!

It's not based on 'cleanliness' it's based on CO2 specifically.

I'd bet the new diesel produces less CO2 than your Toyota.

unfortunately we've defined better as bigger and faster with more toys rather than lighter and more economical

One reason I bought a Prius was to go lighter and more economical. Was that the right decision now then? 🙂

Often fuel economy and emissions can be traded

CO2 emissions can't, surely? The combustion of X amount of fuel always produces Y amount of CO2, unless you produce CO instead or spit unburned HCs out of the exhaust.. which isn't likely these days.

I get that, but I think the gradient is too steep!

It wouldn't work if it wasn't steep!

molgrips - Member
One reason I bought a Prius was to go lighter and more economical. Was that the right decision now then?

Brian Griffin the dog from Family Guy drives a Prius too! 😆

I'd bet the new diesel produces less CO2 than your Toyota.

Argee, something to do with CO2 ... 🙁

chewkw - Member
All these car brands might be impacted by VW coz VW supply them engines of some sort ...

...
Ducati
Ducati Corse
...

Not sure Ducati make many diesel motorbikes 🙂

bensales - Member
Not sure Ducati make many diesel motorbikes

Could be tractor etc? I blame Wiki for the info ... 😆