[Closed] VW are making a roadster with a diesel option (car enthusiast content)

I don't get the fuss. You can already get lots of soft tops in diesel (Mercs, BMWs etc). Modern diesel engines aren't as noisy and rattly as they used to be, and for out of town driving, are the most economical option (even compared with electric assisted etc).

I drive a diesel (not a roadster), and whilst I would prefer the sound of a petrol, my wallet much prefers the diesel.

I thought most mass market roadsters were available in diesel form anyway. TT for example. Not sure but aren't Mercedes planning to do/already doing an SLK in diesel. Can't see the problem either.

EDIT: pixelmix got there before I

Because they want to be like Top Gear and hate diesels to get in with the cool kids.

Top Gear and cool kids...I don't think so... 😛

I heard a Touareg the other day with the V6 diesel - 4.2 is it? CR anyway and it sounded good.. really purred with just a hint of dieseliness in the background.

I didn't know there were any Merc diesel roadsters, I thought the TT was the only one.

Anyway petrols only sound good to me if they are great V8s, which is hardly in the same category. Otherwise they just sound like engines.

VW have offered the Eos in diesel, I think...?

Regarding sound - 6+ cyl diesels have always sounded nice. it's only the 4 cyl ones that have tended towards rattly.

And as for petrol engines not sounding good? - 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8+ cyl engines all have their own characteristics.

4s can sound fairly mundane, but can also sound pretty good under power. The old Peugeot XU9 JA/K from 205 / 309 GTi sounded nice and raspy under power... Subaru's flat 4 engine sounds pretty distinctive... Honda's V4 also makes a lovely noise.

Love the slightly offbeat turbine like wail of a 5 cyl. Always fancied a Fiat Coupe for the 2.0l 20v engine.

Diesel + 'Car enthusiast' = Does not compute.

Bloody horrible things diesel engines. **spits** Suitable only for HGVs, Taxis, and use as boat anchors.

VW have offered the Eos in diesel, I think...?

Yeah, my Mother in law has one, and I've driven it a lot. It only reinforces my dislike of oil burners. Wrong engine for the car, and not a good diesel engine anyway.

It is not the fuel they object to it is the way the engine delivers the power when driving. You get modern diesels with monster power and torque figures but they don't have the quick spinning response of a tuned petrol. Great for cruising or fast main roads, less fun for blast down the wiggly roads.

But the petrol engines they're using aren't exatcly tuned though are they. So nuts to that theory, it is just because it's still cool to whine about diesels and say things like they're for HGVs.

diesels...... slow smelly, ugly brutes....yuk.....

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[i]I drive a diesel (not a roadster), and whilst I would prefer the sound of a petrol, my wallet much prefers the diesel.

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Yeap, thats me too.

iDave. Nice one 😉

Diesels are great from getting from A-B efficiently with a bit of punch when you need it, but as a specific sports car I can't see how they have the flexibility and smooth delivery of power of a petrol.

Are diesels about compromise though? Do the Audi LeMans cars do so well at endurance racing because they are efficient? They could be a pig to drive quickly and no fun, but Audi wouldnt tell you that would they...

If I buy a sports car I want power delivered smoothly when I want it. Diesels just offer too much of a narrow power band, and then its all pretty much delivered in one lump regardless of what you do with your right foot.

I also don't see the point of a diesel in a sports car. Compared to petrol, diesels are heavier, have slower throttle response and produce torque rather than power.

Sports cars are probably driven less than ordinary cars so diesels don't make sense costwise either. IIRC the break even point for driving a diesel is about 15k miles per year. Less than that, the extra cost of buying a diesel car, plus the extra fuel cost makes them more expensive than petrol

I also don't see the point of a diesel in a sports car.

Some people only have one car, need to do 15,000mi pa in it, but want something interesting that can be thrown into a bends.

Diesel + 'Car enthusiast' = Does not compute.

Why so? It's just another engine.

You might like instant power delivery of a big NA petrol, but that doesn't mean I can't like engines and machines in all their various guises, does it?

Car enthusiast doesn't have to mean ragging it on a country road, does it?

but as a specific sports car I can't see how they have the flexibility and smooth delivery of power of a petrol.

So? Is there only one permissible way to enjoy an engine? Are their rules?

its all pretty much delivered in one lump regardless of what you do with your right foot.

That's just not true. Let's not have this argument again!

Lots of FAIL going on on this thread.

I'm not so quick to put down the D's. D's can be made to have a lovely flat, wide torque curve and then geared to suit. Don't forget, it's all about the gearing, the massive torque of a D can be scaled down to the same torque at the wheels as the petrol by using longer gears, which means that despite having a lower redline/powerband you don't need to shift any more often. Assuming both engines have the same rated bhp, gearing takes care of the rest and generally a well tuned D will have the flat torque curve that motoring enthusiasts dream about.

The immediacy of low rev torque available from modern TDis makes them a far more practical prospect for making progress in real world driving situations. By comparison, most petrol engines are not turbocharged and have to be revved quite highly before they can outperform a similarly specced diesel.

Petrol turbocharged cars suggest a good compromise between low down torque, high end oomph and reasonable fuel economy on paper but real world economy is far short of diesel returns.

molgrips - I can only base my experience of disel cars I have driven, and in fact any turbo charged car. They do not have the quick smooth throttle response that enables you to control a rear slide in a controlled manner with the same delicacy as a non turbo petrol.

Again gearing wise, I have yet to drive a diesel with the same wide range of gearing as a petrol sports car.

I'm only basing it on what I have driven, so great if there are diesel sports cars being produced now that over come these issues then fair enough.

FunkyDunc - stuff like the new twin turbo(1 small, 1 big) bmw diesel units have virtually zero turbo lag, due to the small turbo that requires very little spin up time/gas flow), and thus very quick throttle response.
They also pull extremely well from very low revs for the same reason, so gear range is less of an issue.

The 205bhp 2L unit feels like a big ol' na petrol.

So thats 2 £750+ turbos to fail, a £800 clutch, and it will still weigh 100kg more than the 2l petrol. All good selling points in a cheep'n'cheerfull roadster.

Don't forget, it's all about the gearing, the massive torque of a D can be scaled down to the same torque at the wheels as the petrol by using longer gears

True that. I was thinking about this when people were talking about their diesel chewing tyres because of the high torque. The ENGINE has high torque at low revs; for the same acceleration two differently fuelled cars will have the same torque at the wheels.

They do not have the quick smooth throttle response that enables you to control a rear slide in a controlled manner with the same delicacy as a non turbo petrol

Quite possibly. However I'm never ever likely to drive like that, so it's not much of an issue 🙂 Just because they don't suit what you want to do doesn't make them rubbish overall.

Why don't we just call it a different experience? It's like slagging off a 456 against an Orange 5. Different, but both good for slightly different reasons.

So thats 2 £750+ turbos to fail, a £800 clutch, and it will still weigh 100kg more than the 2l petrol.

Hmm.. a powerful twin turbo diesel is a completely different thing to a 2l NA petrol, isn't it? I think Glenh was comparing it to a "big" na petrol like some 3l V6. So if performance were equal you'd be using at least half the fuel in a diesel. An advantage that should not be ignored imo.

I was thinking of glenh's assertion that the BMW 2lt was a good option.

My 1.5l MG does 25-35mpg not far off a V6 3.8lt Nissan GT-R, the new fiat twin air does ~70mpg! Its not black and white that all petrols are one thing and all diesels are the other.

It is black and white that diesel is unlikely to ever be the fuel of choice in a lightweight sports car! OK its found a niche in LMP, but arguably becasue the format and rules let it. Lets face it, an LMP car isn't going to work on the B-roads that a roadster will!

For me any convertible car needs to have a 6 or 8 cylinder NA engine as a big part of the experience is hearing the induction noise and exhaust note when giving it some stick, but that's for my weekend fun car.

If all you care about is open top motoring and what some practicality and do alot of miles, I can't see the issue in a diesel soft top as it would be a good option for european road trips due to diesel being cheaper than petrol in many countries. The petrol 2.0 turbo VAG engine doesn't sound very good anyway.

Something to note, diesel is about to jump in price due to new environmental regs which will essentialy ban the use of HFO.

So all you smug people in your oil burners, you can add shipping to the list of things competeing for your fuel and pushing the prices up.

If anyone has tried the latest VW diesel engines as found in 2011 MY Golf, Passat etc, the whole rattle/noise thing is almost a thing of the past. There are rougher NA petrol engines around in my experience.

If they are offering it with the 7 speed DSG box, I would definitely buy one, as the DSG definitely masks a lot of the power delivery issues of a diesel and can be great fun to drive in sports mode and with paddleshift option.

Its not black and white that all petrols are one thing and all diesels are the other.

No, of course. However diesel is more efficient for a fact, which means either more power for the same mpg or more mpg for the same power.

A fiat twin-air does (on paper) 70mpg but it's tiny. Whereas a Passat bluemotion can approach that figure and is a big family car.

It is black and white that diesel is unlikely to ever be the fuel of choice in a lightweight sports car!

Surely that depends on your criteria? One of my main criteria is fuel economy, so the TT or VW roadster would definitely be high up on my choices.

My Ibiza diesel handled quite nicely. Not the best ever, and it wasn't going to win any races, but then I wasn't racing it. It put a smile on my face and that's all that matters. Or was I wrong to be smiling?

So all you smug people in your oil burners, you can add shipping to the list of things competeing for your fuel and pushing the prices up.

I thought that only applied to the heavy marine diesels - ie engines the size of your house...

I wouldn't have thought road diesel would contain much heavy end hydrocarbons

I thought that only applied to the heavy marine diesels - ie engines the size of your house...

He's suggesting just that the ban they will start using diesel meant for cars, ignoring the fact there's other marine diesel fuel options.

I thought ship engines burned some kind of tar-like sludge left over when everything else had been taken?

He's suggesting just that the ban they will start using diesel meant for cars, ignoring the fact there's other marine diesel fuel options.

Serves me right for skim reading 😳

I thought ship engines burned some kind of tar-like sludge left over when everything else had been taken?

Yep - HFO, heavy fuel oil

VW offers a convertible zzzzzzzZZZZZZ and in diesel (quick Nurse hes slipped into a coma!)

Haven't you owned a few VAG Diesels now Hora?

Diesel+convertible is just wrong. Who wants to hear a rattly diesel engine on a nice summer's day with the top down?

And yes diesels have come a long way but a 6-cyl diesel still sounds rattly next to a 6-cyl petrol - depends what's most important to you of course.

VW offers a convertible zzzzzzzZZZZZZ and in diesel (quick Nurse hes slipped into a coma!)

What a beautiful post, Hora, an absolute delight to read. Delicately worded with fine subtle wit and yet graceful and elegant. You display such profound insight into the subject delivered with such warmth and joy that it's impossible not to love you.

And you contribute to the topic so well too!

Who wants to hear a rattly diesel engine on a nice summer's day with the top down?

My engine doesn't rattle unless idling cold. Idling warm it sounds a bit pants. Crusing along it just hums nicely. Got no problem with it. Listening to the engine isn't why I want a convertible anyway.

Haven't you owned a few VAG Diesels now Hora?

Oh aye and I'll be buying my bro in laws mkVI Golf TDI off of him when he finishes the lease.

No way would I buy a diesel 'sports car' or diesel convertible though just as you'd be silly to buy a V6 2.5 Cmax. Interesting concept but not fit for its purpose really.

I moved from a 270hp, 270lb/ft v6 that revved to 8.5k to a 240hp, 400lb/ft 1.9l weasel and the only thing I miss is the sound, although the diesel actually sounds alright through a 3" pipe, actually tell a lie two things I miss.... doing 75 in second gear. I think the diesel is quicker in most situations, and the delivery is excellent too, peak torque comes in like a sledgehammer at 2100rpm and power builds nicely towards the redline, means you actually have a choice to drive it on the torque and short shift or like a petrol and screw it, I'm not actually sure which way is faster but I like the torque burble.

Would I trade 56mpg for 16? Nope, diesel is the future, for now... 😀

Interesting concept but not fit for its purpose really

No? If I use it for semi-brisk driving along a windy road on a sunny day, will I not enjoy myself?

Gotta decide what its purpose is, haven't you?

You'd enjoy yourself at Legoland. I'd be climbing the walls.

I moved from a 270hp, 270lb/ft v6 that revved to 8.5k

What car was that? I've got a 286bhp 3.0 Straight 6 that can still return around 30 mpg, so that sounds very thirsty for the power.

I also don't see the point of a diesel in a sports car. Compared to petrol, diesels are heavier, have slower throttle response and produce torque rather than power.

Refers Captain Manwairing to previous post with Audi R10 TDI and maybe the Peugeot 908

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Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.

Gachet it was a 3.1l VR6, the way I drove it that was my average, granted if I really tried I could get mid twenties.

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Diesel MEV Rocket.