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Using a fitness watch to assess V02 max trending.
I’ve been learning that VO₂ max is perhaps the strongest predictor of health and longevity, so, basically, rather important AND it falls pretty fast with age - (that’s me!) having got into an SL bike 3 years ago for injury rehab, I know my fitness is not what it was 5 years ago (that is, before a disc herination meant 18 months off any bike and nerve damage has affected one calf muscle a lot, so, no running for me).
I spotted an informative YouTube video (yeah, they were selling a static CAROL bike) but their conclusions seemed to be properly based on research.
The 5-Minute Workout That Boosts VO₂ Max, Brain Health & Longevity | Ulrich Dempfle
Their preferred option = 3 x weekly sprint workouts consisting of only 2 x 20 seconds maximal effort each. That’s it, by all means do the cardio zone 2 type stuff all we mountain bikers do (because its great to be out on a bike), but don’t expect it to even maintain VO2 max - and certainly not to increase it.
Back to watches:
I realise that no watch can give a really accurate VO2 max reading and “even” the Apple Watch might be up to 15% out. But, a watch could help with “trending “ I hope?
A bit of reward to trying the sprint workouts.
I understand that they dont work for biking, but for running (not for me) walking and hiking. I can do the latter two.
Has anyone looked into alternative watches, I’m not really a “watch guy", normally I dont wear one and I don't run (as I can't due to sciatic nerve damage).
Apple Watches are pretty spendy, is there an alternative that’s “as” accurate for VO2 max?
appreciate your opinions, thanks
You'll get a VO2 Max reading for cycling if you are using a power meter or a smart trainer.
I've seen a few videos showing that Garmin etc are actually pretty close to "properly" measured VO2 Max but, as you say, a trend will be useful even if individual readings/devices aren't 100% accurate.
I use a Garmin watch and Edge bike computer, but I'm just into the Garmin ecosystem anyway. Polar, Wahoo etc will all be just as good. I'd view an Apple watch as a smart watch first, fitness tracker second, so have a look at what functions attract you and decide from there.
Any fairly recent Suunto / Polar / Garmin / sportswatch with chest strap will give you enough data to track improvements in VO2. None of them provide lab quality results as you would need breathing gas analysis and blood analysis for that but the watches are close enough to see trends.
For me the optical HR on watches is not accurate but there is huge variation how this works on each individual.
I did a submaximal vo2 max test in a health check and it was within 3 points of my garmin one
by all means do the cardio zone 2 type stuff all we mountain bikers do
I do not recognise my historic mtb riding choices as 'all zone 2 riding' at all, it's more like 3 hours of interval training.
Now I have an e-bike, it's more like zone 2 unless I'm solo or with other eebers.
Have a garmin forerunner. Itsnquite accurate on me, but I have a friend who's data quality with watches are poor compared to a chest monitor, so you pay your money, you take your chances.
No idea where the idea of zone 2 riding comes from. This is standard for my rides (using a chest monitor, but with only the watch is very similar)
I do not recognise my historic mtb riding choices as 'all zone 2 riding' at all
Me neither. Most of my rides seem to be about 50% in zone 4.
Typical example of a solo ride for me.
Personally i've found that riding an MTB in Z2 is pretty much impossible.
I've been getting back into running, unfortunately timed with not bike commuting much - I was waiting for a replacement bike and now I have it 'life' is getting in the way of commutes (should resolve itself later this week). Anyway, 2 5k's in the last week and my V02 max has been dropping and got worse after these. When I was commuting 3 days a week before I was in the blue, as it stands I'm about to fall out of green into orange. Garmin ratings by the way. Fingers-crossed my commute from the car shop and back tomorrow gives me a bump back up.
Yeah point taken on x zone 2 - I don't ride at a level where a conversation would be hard a lot of the time so I guess that’s at least Z3. Still, my point (re the video) about V02 max optimisation remains also my watch question. I'm not a Garmin or Wahoo ecosystem type of customer.
I wonder if a good chest strap connected to an iPhone app could do it? That. would be rather nice. NO watch purchase needed! Google isn't helping me a lot here it listed Myworkout GO listed but I got no further in knowing if it works with a chest strap.
Then there's: https://www.myworkout.com/en/personal
The 'my workout' app https://apps.apple.com/no/app/myworkout-4x4-cardio-training/id6497329690 seems a bit cardio centric though. still, if it measures VO2 with a strap, great
I do not recognise my historic mtb riding choices as 'all zone 2 riding' at all
Me neither. Most of my rides seem to be about 50% in zone 4.
Yeah, but we could be doing better with 2 x 20 second sprints, 3 times a week. Living longer, spending more time on the sofa and, best of all, not going out into that nasty, unsafe, unpleasant outdoors and having to interact with people, weather, nature. Mugs, we're all mugs!
IdleJon Yeah, but we could be doing better with 2 x 20 second sprints, 3 times a week. Living longer, spending more time on the sofa and, best of all, not going out into that nasty, unsafe, unpleasant outdoors and having to interact with people, weather, nature. Mugs, we're all mugs!
But isn't it fun getting out on a bike! I'd just like to be fitter to enjoy it (and life) better
spending more time on the sofa
Oh i do a fair bit of that when i'm not riding.
Helps keep me in the top 5% of VO2 for my age.
I’d like a link to the research in this VO2 max stuff. That’s not sarcasm.
It’s and odd one as VO2 max isn’t that trainable. One thing i read suggested that the research is saying lots of longevity genetic
Any way the most concrete thing I’ve found is that if you want a long life play tennis. It corresponds much betterv with longevity than going to the gym
Anyway, 2 5k's in the last week and my V02 max has been dropping and got worse after these.
You can have different values for bike and running, especially as it's correlated to maximum heart rate in the Garmin calculation.
I'm somewhat skeptical of consumer-level VO2 Max metrics as, in my case at least, the numbers seem to fluctuate for no apparent reason.
I'm been riding fairly consistently for many years (granted, I'm not following a dedicated training plan) and tracking my data via a Garmin Edge 530 (with chest strap HRM).
My numbers are all over the place and the peaks and troughs don't seem to coincide with more exertion or rest periods. For instance, my health/fitness has been fairly consistent over the last six months (no illness or injuries) and Garmin shows this:
Obviously, over summer I was able to do some longer rides but even in November I'm getting in decent milage (though metres climbed is how I monitor my progress as my rides tend to be short and steep)
Garmin seems to base its calculations on how much high aerobic exercise you get. If you are doing long, slow rides it does nothing for your VO2
Interesting, and there are enough data points to show VO2max is an indicator of longer live. Good VO2max is probably a surrogate marker for good/ improved cardiac health which is good for longer life.
VO2max is just one metric, and after a year of trainer road I have realised that there are other aspects of cardiovascular health that are worth paying attention to......ability to keep riding at lower HR for longer, ability to maintain FTP for longer without blowing up....
I was doing lots of Sunday MTB as above when I was ragging it, lots of Z4, and feeling blitzed for days. Now I can ride same Sundays and for longer with less Z4, and more Z2/3 and feel great. My VO2 has improved but only a couple points, but overall I am much fitter and enjoying my rides more, and posting PBs on segments and better results than since 2012 (I am amazed and chuffed).
You can improve VO2 w HIIT, and that is good, but volume Z2 is also valuable. Both routines target different aspects of CV physiology.
The other thing to realise is that changes to our biology take time so you'll only really see changes over a 4-6 week period of consistent training.
I use Polar, and I don't know how good that is (their research papers suggest v comparable to real VO2), but I am looking at the trend. Despite being 60, I have managed to maintain my VO2 at the same level over years.
You don't need to know you your VO2 max to train your VO2 max.
I think it's wishful thinking that a comparatively short interval session is going to work miracles for your vo2 max. Mine was measured in a lab test at 73 and that was the result of a lot of work...
Im also cynical of some of the calculation via Hr and bike power alone. My high vo2 came from running, and my running max hr was circa 200 at the time (age 29). My cycling max was circa 135 as i lacked the legpower to max the HR out. So when you see various numbers , think how you interpret numbers..
This is what you pay a good coach for. But there are a lot of bad coaches who just take the numbers and dont think
We have a fitness test at work based on Vo2 max. My Garmin watches over the years are always way too conservative, usually by 4 to 8 points. Better than being optimistic though!
We have to achieve over 42 and I have found a mixture of running and interval training is the best way to hit the target. On the treadmill I do the majority of my run at a steady pace then the last km or so with a minute on at full speed, minute off at walking pace. Another good one is the rowing machine with 500m rounds. 100m steady, 100m full blast, steady, full, steady.
Im also cynical of some of the calculation via Hr and bike power alone. My high vo2 came from running, and my running max hr was circa 200 at the time (age 29). My cycling max was circa 135 as i lacked the legpower to max the HR out.
My running VO2 max is usually 5% or so higher than my cycling VO2 max. As you suggest, I think that's just a measure of how well I'm applying my muscles 😊 For comparison, intervals.icu reports that I'm in the top 10% of my age group for running power, but in the lower 30% for my cycling power.
No idea where the idea of zone 2 riding comes from. This is standard for my rides (using a chest monitor, but with only the watch is very similar)
How are you getting those zones?
Your zone 4 maximum value should be your estimated Lactate Threshold Heart Rate, obtained by regular ~6 weekly tests where you ride with as high an average heart rate as you can for 20mins+ and take 98% of that number.
If you rode like that example data, with ~72mins of z4+ every ride, you would quickly send yourself to overtraining hell unless you only did two or at maximum three rides like that per week.
They are whatever garmin has decided, I only do one ride like that each week combined with running. Seems to work fine for me, the heart rate zones seem to match with my running levels fairly well
Ampthill
My running VO2 max is usually 5% or so higher than my cycling VO2 max
Mine is the opposite - my running VO2 max value which is always a consistent pace is 2-3pts lower than my Zwift 'races' which I give solid efforts on.
*I watched a YouTube video from one of the cycling pages which compared a person's Garmin watch VO2 max with a lab CPET value .. the Garmin value gave a full 10 PTS higher reading.
My Garmin VO2 max shows me as in elite category, where as I know my fitness is far from that in real life. So, I'd say the Garmin value is a good starting point to monitor VO2, but is not a real life accurate score.
Have you actually watched that? That magic workout is designed for people with a very low level of activity. If that's all you do then you'll get an increase from not much to much *1.5, but you won't keep on improving at much of a rate, if at all
If you're really trying to improve your VO2 on a bike, weekly 4x8min effort sessions are more beneficial than weekly 8x4min effort sessions, with ~3mins recovery between each VO2 interval.
It takes me a good minute or two Z5 power to get my HR into VO2 territory - and usually only by the second or third interval.
So as above, longer intervals and progression.
They are whatever garmin has decided, I only do one ride like that each week combined with running. Seems to work fine for me, the heart rate zones seem to match with my running levels fairly well
What age are you off you don't mind me asking? Just wondering what your max hr is
175, garmin has my lhtr at 158 for running and 161 for cycling
Although I have gotten higher heart rates than that on various runs and rides with a chest strap. So I don't entirely think the 220 minus age is accurate for me
So I don't entirely think the 220 minus age is accurate for me
I don't think it's entirely accurate for anyone, but your Max HR will be higher than your LTHR. Which is being used to set those zones?
Good question. I think lhtr but that was what the watch picked. So I don't know if those are accurate or not. Either way a quick calculation doesn't have the zones herringbone that far out. Maybe 5bpm lower, unsure really
You can fix a lot of the above 'zone' problems (example 49 minutes in zone 4? you should be placing op 10 in tour stages, or 'Personally i've found that riding an MTB in Z2 is pretty much impossible.' ) if you assume that you're underestimating your max HR. You need to test yourself for that number... not assume it from age.
How can your running VO2 max be different to your cycling one. The highest number is your VO2 max - the lower numbers from other sports come from not being strong enough to reach VO2 max
How can your running VO2 max be different to your cycling one.
Different sports use different amounts of muscle, so you'll be able to consume more oxygen. If you're cycling, it's your legs that are consuming that oxygen, but if you're XC skiing your legs are plus your arms and core. Running uses more muscle mass than cycling.
175, garmin has my lhtr at 158 for running and 161 for cycling
Although I have gotten higher heart rates than that on various runs and rides with a chest strap. So I don't entirely think the 220 minus age is accurate for me
Your max hr and lactate threshold are virtually the same as mine (about 1 or 2 different) but your Garmin zones are completely different
Oh well, have reset them on my watch to see what happens. Can't say it really bothers me, but reality is that my night rides will still likely be a lot of zone 4 and 5. That's just what happens, if I want zone 2 I will have to get an ebike
Why?. How can you not just use an easier gear or go slower??
For your max 173 hr it should be piss easy to stay at less than 121 for the majority of a ride?
That's boring, why would i bother
My garmin gives a VO2max number, the number itself is nonsense (at least 10 points too high, possibly more) but the trend does seem to follow my training quite well. It's based on running cos that's what I do, I think the problem is that the running power estimate is massively unrealistic. I am not routinely doing 500W for a parkrun! There must be some scaling factor that's a bit off.
I think Garmin just give a much higher than accurate VO2 to possibly not avoid discouraging people exercising .. if someone has been doing relatively easy work outs 2-3x weekly and their Garmin watch is showing their VO2 max as average it may demotivate people: whereas show them a VO2 of touching elite, and that may make them keep at it to maintain.
As crazy as it sounds, ego regarding such things plays a big role.
To Molgrips - i personally see the difference across sports as a measure of muscle development, and probably reflected in lthr than VO2 max which is a mwasure of aerobic capacity. I clocked 73 running,- no way could i achieve that cycling as i didnt have the power .
I should probably reread on this but at some point you have to lock something across sports , and id have thought vo2 max makes most sense.
@grahamt1980 my average hr in the past year is 123bmp involving lots of ups and downs in the peak district. I'm usually fastest or second fastest of the group up hill and an average fitness 47 year old. Z4 or z5 how are you actually getting there, what's your locale/riding/bike
Why?. How can you not just use an easier gear or go slower??
That really is a very odd thing to say.
May as well ask why folks even bother to ride bikes.
I would have thought from you being a member on here for a while you would understand why folks might want to try and push on with a ride.