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wobbliscott
Full Member
Geraint Thomas? Isn’t another ‘tax dodging’ Monaco resident?Since when was Brexit or the EU about locking up domestic businesses? My wife’s NMW X3 was produced in the US just as every X3 is. Where is the outcry about that? Global business being global shocker!!
How many models are there in the BMW range?
Did BMW court the Welsh assembly with a view to knocking the X3 together in Cwmbran?
I thinks not.
Did BMW court the Welsh assembly with a view to knocking the X3 together in Cwmbran?
I thinks not.
Because you chat to somebody casually at a bar, are you committed to marrying them, having a family and spending the rest of your lives together? Are the Welsh Assembly the bunny boiler at the bar that genuinely think that?
In laymen’s terms the uk will get a massive shit sandwich delivered every month. We all have to take a huge bite to get rid of it. However a new one will be delivered before we finish the first one !
And repeat
Are the Welsh Assembly the bunny boiler at the bar that genuinely think that?
Given that even the PM tweeted that it was a major bonus for Wales, global business, secured investment and jobs in the area then yes, I imagine they did think that, even if there wasn't a specific contract saying "we promise to build the car here".
Be interesting to see how many other components or pieces of the puzzle are in or in close proximity to Hambach. Also be interesting to see where his outside investment and advisors are based for other reasons that could have pushed the move like Gov grants / subsidies / loans offered from each country.
Not my industry but sounds a bit like when the US tried to incentive electronics co’s to manufacture in the US, not understanding that most of the supply chain is in or around Shenzhen. So many factors beyond the understanding of those not actually in supply chain or manufacture that end up getting politicised or simplified for pub conversation.
It’s a harsh thought but outside of F1 / small scale performance or specialist engineering I don’t see much incentive to physically manufacture at any real scale in the UK. I hope I sound nothing like D Davies when approaching business. Just try to look at all aspects at play rather than the headline. I think there will be real issues as a result, just don’t see cars as one of them. E.g https://www.reuters.com/article/eu-tech-semiconductor-idUSKBN28H1HV
Alongside losing ARM would be of much more concern to me...
Ratcliffe was only ever going to take the right decision for his company; if it's good for his company, it's good for him.
He's taken a pragmatic decision to not invest in the UK - as, I fear, many other businesses will also do in the coming years.
Ratcliffe was only ever going to take the right decision for his company; if it’s good for his company, it’s good for him.
He’s taken a pragmatic decision to not invest in the UK – as, I fear, many other businesses will also do in the coming years.
Of course he has - it's all the "go on, vote Brexit, it'll be great, the country will thrive, the streets will be paved with gold and unicorns for all, etc" nonsense he did that irks rather, now that he's taking his manufacturing elsewhere.
And his tax payments. Brexit cheerleaders making use of moving abroad personally and professionally, and taking jobs and tax income with them, leaving us to deal with the shit they have left us, is hard to take on the chin. He’s yet another who sold us down the river, and than ran away.
I have given up getting excited about the hypocracy and double standards surrounding Brexit. I could go full on Michael Douglas in 'Falling Down' at the drop of a hat if I think about it too much. So far on the hitlist:
1) Everybody who voted leave
2) Everybody who didn't vote at all, thus leaving the door open for the muppet collection in point 1.
(edit - I am perhaps only half joking here. I don't have access to the arsenal of a small African country!)
I negotiate for a living and train others to do so. The complexity of the Brexit negotiation is mouth watering to me as an intellectual exercise, but is the ultimate deal worth the pain?
Yep.
Someone will be along selling scaffolding and nooses in the new year.
They'll probably source them cheap from abroad though, putting UK rope makers out of business.
I negotiate for a living and train others to do so. The complexity of the Brexit negotiation is mouth watering to me as an intellectual exercise, but is the ultimate deal worth the pain?
Depends on what side of the fence you sit, the great mistake Remainers made, both as individuals and the official Remain campaign was debating on a purely non-emotional, economic basis.
Pretty much every economist the world over said it was stupid, and they were assuming it would be a 'light' Brexit when we'd remain in the Customs Union etc. There isn't a deal available that will offer an immediate improvement to our Economy, and or indeed any that offer an obvious long-term benefit.
The problem was the majority of Leavers didn't care, the more we shouting about Trade Agreements the less they engaged. There argument is far more emotional, they simply don't like the idea of being 'Ruled Over' by a foreign country and there is no financial penalty too great for 'Freedom' the worse the deal, the better for them as it's puts the most distance between the EU and us.
With that wonderful 20-20 hindsight, Remain should have campaigned to show that we had a huge amount of control over our neighbours, whilst the Sun was running bullshit stories about bendy bananas or whatever, we should have highlighted the changes we made for the rest of the EU to establish ourselves as one of the richest countries in the world.
The Sad thing is that there will be no comeuppance for Leavers, they won't accept Brexit caused anything nationally, they'll blame the EU for travel restrictions, punishment for leaving them high and dry and we will likely continue to be a wealthy country, just less so than we could have been and it will be a far rougher journey, but the dye is cast. Most leavers will never accept Brexit was bad, because that's too much like admitted you're wrong and will celebrate every victory as confirmation - like saying we managed to get the Vaccine first because of Brexit or whatever.
Since we're not likely to have tariff free access to the EU market for cars and will be subject to rules of origin etc, it makes no sense whatsoever to build cars in the UK now. So if you're at the point of making a decision, it would be completely irrational to pick the UK.
It's a logical and very obvious consequence of Brexit.
Depends on what side of the fence you sit, the great mistake Remainers made, both as individuals and the official Remain campaign was debating on a purely non-emotional, economic basis.
This didn't happen.
The Leave teams focussed on immigration, the NHS, and "our money"... that £350 million bus was all about an "economic basis" for leaving... the bait & switch about "sovereignty over the economy" happened post referendum... and even more so post having lost membership. When persuading people to vote Leave they absolutely promised that an economic benefit would be coming our way. The "average voter" was supposed to see that big fake number, and believe that it was costing us to be members, and we'd have more money to "spend on things like the NHS" if we left.
As for the emotional case... over to Sheila Hancock...
Remember Dyson pulled out of market after testing / analysing competition
I get your wider point but this is a bit apples and oranges, Dyson was about an electric (possibly self-driving) car that needed a massive amount of R&D. The Ineos Grenadier just seems to be a Defender/G-Wagen mash-up with nothing innovative about it, sure it needs a lot of tooling/manufacturing investment (which is what they're saving on by going with the French plant) but there's comparatively little R&D investment required (and the car doesn't rely on yet-to-be-developed technology).
I think it's adieu, actually.
hth
I agree Kelvin. The leave campaign was about building a hospital every other day and how much more prosperous we would all be without having to pay for the French farmers and Spanish fishermen (grumble, grumble). Yes there was an emotional component about 'taking our country back' (whatever that means), but the leave campaign was not totally lacking financial fairy tale content.
I do also agree with P-Jay that with 20/20 hindsight the remain campaign could have generated more of a feel good factor around being inclusive and diverse and what would be lost without that. As a remainer (did you pick that one up yet?), despite the financial impact on me personally, what I will actually miss the most is the emotional connection having worked for European companies and having friends in many European countries. There is richness in diversity and being open minded and it feels like a real backwards step culturally and emotionally. We now risk being stereotyped internationally as small-minded small-islanders.
the remain campaign could have generated more of a feel good factor around being inclusive and diverse and what would be lost without that.
That's exactly the kind of 'metropolitan elite' kinda talk (which, incidentally, I agree with) that many Leave voters rebelled against.
I think its going to be rebadged as the Panzer Grenadier 3.9 ... i have already got me coat.
Sounds quite snappy as a model name..
That’s exactly the kind of ‘metropolitan elite’ kinda talk (which, incidentally, I agree with) that many Leave voters rebelled against.
Sadly yes. Is it just me or is politics becoming increasingly divisive?
The leave campaign won because it lied totally and utterly and had some catchy phrases. Remain was less attractive as it told the truth. Anyway, all in past, Leave won and they can own every single consequence of their choice...
Leave won and they can own every single consequence of their choice…
Totally agree, and the exact sentiment of my first contribution to the this thread (he says trying get back on track with the OP's original thread and avoiding yet another Brexit thread!). Be careful what you wish for.......
Democracy isn't about making the right choice, it's about making the common choice. I accept the result but I will never accept the narrow minded lies that achieved the result.
Maybe remain should adopt the Trump approach and just completely deny that leave even won even after all of this time? 'It was the greatest steal in electoral history - everybody's saying it'.
As a percentage more people voted Leave in England than Wales. In Wales 47.5% voted Remain, so it's a bit harsh to tar them all.
one thing I've learned is that you can never have too many Brexit threads
In Wales 47.5% voted Remain, so it’s a bit harsh to tar them all.
Likewise the few people in the NE who didn't vote for all the car plants to close and move to Europe, who will find themselves in the middle of an unemployment black spot surrounded by racist nut jobs rejoicing in their new found freedom to never work again. Nissan's days must be numbered now.
As a percentage more people voted Leave in England than Wales. In Wales 47.5% voted Remain, so it’s a bit harsh to tar them all.
Actually, the Scottish and N Irish remainers should have the biggest axe to grind. In Wales, like it or not they voted to leave. Not sure how that breaks down in the exact catchment of the proposed Ineos factory site.
What galls me more given that Brexit will impact everybody in the country was the voter turnout (see my previous comments about 'Falling Down'). The apathy of almost 1/3 of the country is frankly (and in the truest sense of the word) unbelievable. The biggest failing of both campaigns can ultimately not be measured in lies or misdirection, but their inability to motivate the electorate to give a s#*t at the ballot box.
England
Voter turnout 73%,
Remain 46.6%
Leave 53.4%
Wales
Voter turnout 72%,
Remain 47.5%
Leave 52.5%
N Ireland
Voter turnout 63%,
Remain 55.8%
Leave 44.2%
Scotland
Voter turnout 67%,
Remain 62.0%
Leave 38.0%
Bridgend - 54.6% voted Leave, while 45.5% voted Remain.
Vale of Glamorgan (which would include a lot who might have worked at Ford) - 50.7% Remain, 49.3% Leave
so to say "Bridgend voted for it, they should own it" is a bit silly
(and yes, I know I'm adding to another Brexit thread)
That picture of the dogs is just excellent.
Not only because it has lots of dogs in it (and normally that alone would be enough).
I think that may end up being the best thing to come out of Brexit.
The Daily Mail has a lot to answer for...
Not only because it has lots of dogs in it (and normally that alone would be enough).
I want a pocket size German Shepherd now. Have you seen a Corgi cross…?
I stood on a Corgi once, it was very cross.
Not like Landy's haven't been made abroad before, does anyone remember the Santana or Iveco Massif versions?