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The issue is Boris is most likely slightly predatory and sleazy towards women so he doesn't want to have to change that behaviour.
I actually saw some uncalled for behaviour today while out on the bike towards two young ladies out jogging. Riding past Roath Lake in Cardiff and some lads sat on a bench were obviously eyeing them up as they ran towards them and as they got close one of them said 'Bouncy, bouncy' in that tone famous in Carry-On films. I was too far away to immediately respond myself but one couple nearby did tell them off. Maybe they would have told them off anyway but it was still good to see that not everyone just ignores it.
In my opinion the violence against women is caused by the power imbalance that is ingrained in our society. I do believe that the last 50 years or so has seen significant improvement, but this is one of those issues where any amount of it is too much.
I think the answer is probably best arrived at by studying some of the dichotomy that exists within perpetrators of violence against women, but also in general. Take, for example, the Russian soldiers murdering and particularly raping their way across eastern Germany in 1945. Many of them would still have been writing letters to 'sweethearts' back at home. How can a person carry on a 'normal' life in one regard whilst perpetrating horrific acts in another? It seems impossible to a 'normal' person, but too large a proportion of those soldiers were engaged in it for it to be dismissed as a few bad apples. 'Everyday' perpetrators of violence against female partners must actually spend the vast majority of their lives being 'normal', otherwise how would they get or hold down a job?
I'm probably not wording this very well - I find it extremely hard to understand to be honest. 🤔
One other thing that did come to mind, though, and it is a question I believe the answer to which could also be revealing....
How could so many women in the US vote for Donald Trump? He admitted to the "grab 'em by the...." comments and dismissed them as some kind of 'norm'. I am probably misunderstanding again now, but as a man, let alone a woman, that would just make me say "even if I agree with everything else, I cannot vote for that man". There are some lines that cannot be crossed.
Is it that women who voted for Trump were too beaten down by sexism since the day they were born to care any more?
"Them and Us"
People have always done this. They've always cried over their loved ones whilst holding slaves or revering those who've killed other people's loved ones. Humans are pre-programmed to value in-groups (aka "us") over out-groups (aka "them). The real difference between the bad and the good (in my opinion) is where we draw the line - the locus of 'us'.
@dannyh Women voted for Trump because voting for Trump did not require one to be of male gender, it required one to be an ahole. And being an ahole is not the preserve of men.
I think some women would be uncomfortable with the idea of a woman president too. There was also the fact that Clinton came with a whole ton of baggage but some would not have voted for a woman whoever she was.
Trump is also a narcissist and had a certain charm. It clearly worked on some.
“Them and Us”
One analogy I heard (might even have been on here) in order to get a sense of perspective was a cycling one. Actually @dannyh touched on it ^^ with the comment about power imbalance too, that holds true in this analogy.
As a man, put on your lycra and go for a road ride. Doesn't matter where, could even be a commute. For the purposes of this experiment you are "a woman". Most pedestrians and other cyclists also count as "women".
All those other vehicles, the cars, motorbikes, buses etc? They're all "men". All colours, sizes, shapes, some are loud, some quiet, some flashy, some tatty. Might even be a couple of really nice looking ones in the mix. Just like in real life.
Ride along the road - all the "men" that pass you, most will be fine, no real interaction at all. Some will be really considerate, hang back, give you a wide berth. Some will be a bit ignorant but won't really mean any harm - a slightly too close pass or an overtake coming up to a red light; the equivalent of pushing past when getting onto a bus perhaps. They don't mean any direct harm but they're just a bit thick.
And a few will be actively dangerous. Punishment passes, objects thrown out the window, leaning on the horn, abuse. The equivalent in real life of being groped, leered at or actually assaulted.
The way it was explained was a really good analogy - in the same way that as a cyclist you are constantly on the alert for that one dangerous overtake that could flatten you, basically women are walking through daily life *constantly* thinking that the next man behind them is going to be the dangerous one, constantly experiencing the cycling equivalent of an impatient driver.
Vast majority of the time it'll be fine, no issues at all, completely neutral.
The remaining small % is a mix of the considerate "wide overtake" version", the "ignorant but not deliberately malicious" type and finally the "punishment pass". And you can't really identify which version you're going to get until it's right next to you.
Women voted for Trump because voting for Trump did not require one to be of male gender, it required one to be an ahole.
Totally agreed but the explicit sexism and misogyny of Trump should, in my opinion, have trumped (hah) any degree of aholery. In my opinion.
But in any case, the point I was trying to make is that 'othering' combined with power imbalance is probably behind much of the issue here.
But Trump's sexism and misogyny would have appealed to some women because some women are sexist and misogynistic. It is exactly why they voted for him. As to why they are that way, well I guess that's because it's so prevalent in society. While some women might choose to reject the politics of sexism and misogyny, others align themselves to it in the hope of surviving and it's because all they've ever known. They align themselves with those who have power and close their eyes to the disservice they are doing themselves and their fellow women. It is very much an individualistic approach. If you can't beat them, join them, kind of thing.
All that ties in with 'othering' and power imbalances. It's just the other is those that challenge the status quo not those that are of a different gender.
I think at least. I don't know, maybe they just ticked the wrong box 😉
It's a similar situation when rather than help other people emigrate here from other countries, some immigrants become anti-immigration and want to close the borders once they are in. They don't want to align themselves with the powerless but the powerful, however abhorrent that must feel to them if they were ever to allow themselves to properly think about it.
^^^^
Stockholm Syndrome on a societal level?
More than likely, yes.
I thought gender was a social construct? Will we be "educating" other groups of people who commit disproportionally more crime or violence?
Just some questions that come to mind.
Totally agreed but the explicit sexism and misogyny of Trump should, in my opinion, have trumped (hah) any degree of aholery. In my opinion.
But in any case, the point I was trying to make is that ‘othering’ combined with power imbalance is probably behind much of the issue here.
This is what I've been getting at, you can't deal with violence against women without having a conversation about humanities ability to to "other" out groups and commit violence against them. As violence against women often stems from "othering" or dehumanizing them, it's partly a derangement or consequence of our propensity to do that.
Well put @dannyh
I am afraid I follow the Welsh stereotype and like to use 20 words when three would do 🙂
Despite being female, I don't often comment on these threads. I am an old lady. Yes, a real one, not one those those fake 40-something "old ladies" - I even have my state pension!
So I accept that I've been "beaten down by sexism since the day they were born", and younger people might find my opinions outdated, or just plain weird.
However crazy-legs analogy with cycling fits neatly with my approach. I used to ride a motorbike every day, and tried to practice "defensive driving" techniques. So I assumed that every other road user was an aggressive idiot, out to kill me, and made sure to stay away from them. For example, simply let them overtake, rather than me accelerating away, to get some space between us.
I also dressed in an appropriate fashion for motor-biking (eg no bare arms or legs). And I tucked my long hair out of sight (mainly to prevent it going ratty) which affected other people's perceptions of me.
I'm happy to be cautious on the road, and on my mountain bike, and generally when ""out and about". It's kept me relatively safe so far, and I no longer have to even think about it.
So there we have it, just one old lady's observations . . .
Along with the cycling analogy, I think this explains it pretty well..
[img] 
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Seeing as no one else has mentioned this, I see that 8 Asian women have been gunned down by an Incel terrorist in the US.
Mainly we were trying to put ourselves in the position of a woman we might meet while running, cycling, walking back from town etc and thinking about how we minimise any stress and anxiety our presence might cause.
Did you come to any conclusion because I just say hello to people and go about my business. I have stopped and changed wheels for people before also, an old lady in Slovenia had a policeman chase me down to pay me! I saw two young ladies walking their bikes a few weeks ago and saw one had a puncture, I asked if they wanted me to fix it they said no thanks we are almost home and I went on my way. Am I doing all this wrong?
Crazylegs
The way it was explained was a really good analogy – in the same way that as a cyclist you are constantly on the alert for that one dangerous overtake that could flatten you, basically women are walking through daily life *constantly* thinking that the next man behind them is going to be the dangerous one, constantly experiencing the cycling equivalent of an impatient driver.
AA
Did you come to any conclusion because I just say hello to people and go about my business. I have stopped and changed wheels for people before also
idiotdogbrain
I think this explains it pretty well..
It doesn't really say what IT is ... or whilst asking questions what "violence" includes.
To keep with the canine analogy, every dog in a litter will experience a few warning nips from siblings and mum ... but it doesn't grow up to be afraid of ALL dogs...
Extending this further my mum always takes rescue dogs and the previous one was certainly nervous around men .. including my brother who she'd nip at. She was completely different with me ... totally subservient not that I did anything "special", she just did what I said and fawned for my attention. She'd come and lie on my feet or cuddle up on the floor but wouldn't jump on the furniture whereas she'd jump up and try and push my brother off a sofa.
I think the analogy here is my brother would never have hurt her (indeed he paid vast sums for her vet bills) but maybe he tried too hard. I love dogs but this one was particularly stupid and I wasn't particularly attached to it compared to other dogs.
Anyway, for whatever reasons we had an equitable relationship ... but she wasn't scared of ALL men .. but then she didn't watch TV and browse social media.
As has been mentioned multiple times (and I didn't read pages 2-3) women are far less at risk of violence than young men but the media likes to have a field day and fear sells papers, clicks or whatever the modern equivalent is.
Perhaps someone has the figures for risk of serious injury because in perspective is the chance larger, smaller or about the same as driving a car to drop the kids off or cycling on the road? (or dying from Covid ??)
Then there is unpleasant behaviour ... and perhaps due to the media this is being lumped together with actual risk and the two do overlap but perhaps much of this is a lot of expectation/perception.
On one side there is an implicit threat that is mostly not there. Just because some guy on a scaffold with his jeans down his crack wolf whistles or cat calls doesn't mean there is any violent intent, he's just a nob. It's NOT acceptable but equally it's not something to be scared of.
AA described a lot I identify with ... the difference is perhaps I treat people in the way they treat me not some idealised way. Some people will just fall back on violence, I don't really care so long as there are no witnesses or if there are they clearly hit me first. Otherwise this is the same as AA described, at the point you say something and especially as a guy you have to be prepared for it to escalate to violence and possibly a knife.
As a society we seem to have forgotten that for some people violence is the only language they understand and in other's is just the safest option. A decade or more ago I was going through a metro tunnel with my mum and we encountered a old guy being robbed by a youth. I didn't piss about as he quite probably had a knife but after when the youth was bleeding semi-concioius on the floor my mum asked why I didn't try and talk to him first. 2 reasons were that I had my mum with me and he probably had a knife and he obviously had no problem with violence and the youth had obviously chosen a place with no cameras.
If I were to follow what is taught now I should have walked away and phoned the police because there is some misguided perception that violence doesn't solve anything unless we outsource it to someone like the police to do it on our behalf. To me this is like saying you're vegetarian because you only eat cling film meat that someone else has killed and prepared.
In the same way my kid was being bullied in school, the kid has already been moved due to his behaviour and in 2 consecutive days he stole and broke my kids lunch box and threw his headphones on the school roof. He did as he was instructed and "told a teacher" who apparently talked to the parents. Obviously nothing changed so I told him to just hit him in the face a few times. The kid is double his weight so he can't just push him back... problem solved and next day the kid brought in £10 ... he has to the end of this week to pay up for the new headphones and lunch box and I suspect somehow he will find the money. Most importantly perhaps it changed the relationship not only for my son but any of his friends.
However, what this does highlight is my risk for seeing someone being bullied/mugged or whatever is not getting hurt (I fall off bikes for fun) ... but the legal consequences.
5-6yrs? ago I was outside Aberdeen station (having a smoke) and a group of youths (17-18) were harassing younger kids as they left the station.
Eventually a couple responded and they were surrounded by the youths. I reluctantly put out my cig and walked in .. but the truth is there was nothing I could do except intimidate them that wouldn't see me in court and intimidating a group of youths who tower over you isn't easy.
It kinda worked out as I got the 2 lads away but the same group of youths were back the next night.... people were ignoring them knowing they can't actually do anything without being at risk of prosecution.
I'll just point out that it was the girls/young women who were choosing the victims for the boys and encouraging them.
Same way I had a load (350kg) of scrap metal on my drive and have had multiple people just try and steal it. Talking to them just ended up with threats of violence or "no speak English" each time ... so I kept a steel bar by the front door. This worked far better ... one of the early ones returned and suddenly spoke English including advanced use of the vernacular. They claimed to not have been before despite me having their van reg and stealing on camera ... sometimes violence is the only language someone will listen to and societies lack of acceptance of this causes all sorts of knock on problems.
This is why I try not to get involved when I see unpleasant behaviour (to women or otherwise). That guy on the scaffolding has 5 mates (witnesses) that will all swear blind I attacked him and if I even comment there is a good chance he'll climb down and have a go.
I'm not surprised women are scared if we're teaching them that every man is a potential rapist.
i_scoff_cake
I’m not surprised women are scared if we’re teaching them that every man is a potential rapist.
That's the beauty of populist media driven policy.
You can ignore every actual fact except for likes and clicks.
I’m not surprised women are scared if we’re teaching them that every man is a potential rapist.
That’s the beauty of populist media driven policy.
You can ignore every actual fact except for likes and clicks.
Reminds me of something I saw recently from that godawful (swid?) Dennis Pr*ger
Jaw-dropping. I link a ‘review’ rather than the original. I’ve of course no firm evidence for whether or not the likes of Pr*ger actually believe the stuff they peddle. But that’s not the issue is it? The fact is they are pu$$$$hing this stuff, day in, day out.
women are far less at risk of violence than young men but the media likes to have a field day and fear sells papers, clicks or whatever the modern equivalent is.
I don't think this is it. Men know that there are certain danger scenarios - heavy drinking, football matches etc - and then the rest of the time it's fine. Very few men are a threat to me, and I can avoid the ones that are.
But it's different for women - they are frequently subjected to low grade abuse and unpleasant behaviour of varying degrees from actual physically present men, and it can escalate at any time. And this kind of behaviour is enabled and effectively condoned by a lot of media in subtle ways. And this is the real problem, not just the headline statistics.
You can't blame the media for inflating this. You're a man, and you're dismissing women's concerns as being all in their heads, whilst being a man and never having experienced it. Despite what you may think, you ARE part of the problem here.
I’m not surprised women are scared if we’re teaching them that every man is a potential rapist.
That’s the beauty of populist media driven policy.
You can ignore every actual fact except for likes and clicks.
FFS, how are we still not getting this..!?
Women are not scared because of the media - women are scared/cautious/fed up because of their [b]actual direct experiences[/b] of being harassed, groped, intimidated, threatened, etc. [b]by men[/b].
Those of us who are not women, we DO NOT get to tell women how they feel about it. That's part of the root of the problem - men assuming that they know better that the people who actually experience this behaviour. Just like white people don't get to tell BAME people how they feel about racism.
We do not get to say "but statistics".
We do not get to say "but violence against men as well".
What we do is we listen, and we try to understand, and we do what is asked of us. It might feel uncomfortable to feel that we are not doing things right, but damn it, it's less uncomfortable than what women have had to tolerate since forever.
"It's like a situation where one person has been beating another with a stick for years. The person with the stick is afraid that if they stop the beating and drop the stick, the other person will pick it up and beat them back. But the beaten person just wants the beating to stop."
Isn’t it perfectly reasonable to hold that the promotion of all males as inherently (rather than potentially) sexually violent is unhelpful, while also understanding that male violence/harrassment/abuse against women is ongoing and too often unheard?
And then the subject of toxic masculinity - which has been recently squashed. The denial of which seems to be a ‘sacred cow’ of the conservative mindset.
I think some women would be uncomfortable with the idea of a woman president too.
This observation in the context of women voting for Trump, reminded me of a conversation years ago with a female relative who was strongly opposed to women clergy because of some spurious reason like 'women need leading by men' or somesuch crap. Very weird.
What we do is we listen, and we try to understand, and we do what is asked of us.
And that ^^
Compare it to say, the problem of litter.
If you don't drop litter, that's good. You aren't making it worse. But what we really need to do is actively make it better. Campaign against litter droping, pick up a few pieces when you're out and about, call it out when we see it, and join or organise community litter picks. Simply not dropping it yourself whilst stepping over what's already there is not enough.
This observation in the context of women voting for Trump, reminded me of a conversation years ago with a female relative who was strongly opposed to women clergy because of some spurious reason like ‘women need leading by men’ or somesuch crap. Very weird.
Reminds me of Jordan Klepper interviewing a pro-Trump lady in 2016 - she was against Hilary because women are too emotional."Too emotional?" He sez. "Yeah," she says, "we get all hormonal and do all kinds of crazy things." "What - like, start wars?" he sez. "Exactly!" she sez, "we'd start wars".
"Every war," he says, "has been started by men."
I don’t think this is it. Men know that there are certain danger scenarios – heavy drinking, football matches etc – and then the rest of the time it’s fine. Very few men are a threat to me, and I can avoid the ones that are.
Hardly or are you bullet proof? Are you really saying a kid with a gun is no danger to you?
In so far as what I think you mean is your not worried about the odd kid without a knife but you wouldn't walk through "that estate" after dark.
But it’s different for women – they are frequently subjected to low grade abuse and unpleasant behaviour of varying degrees from actual physically present men, and it can escalate at any time. And this kind of behaviour is enabled and effectively condoned by a lot of media in subtle ways. And this is the real problem, not just the headline statistics.
I'm missing how that is different ... ? I've been plenty of places where "not from round here" is an open invitation. The difference is perhaps that when it does inevitably turn to violence you're quite happy to dish it out.
You can’t blame the media for inflating this. You’re a man, and you’re dismissing women’s concerns as being all in their heads, whilst being a man and never having experienced it. Despite what you may think, you ARE part of the problem here.
I'm not saying it's all in their heads I'm saying it's not in the heads of others...
Before I had a kid to look after I rarely gave it a thought ... I didn't go out and think "will I get hit by a car, will I get stabbed etc." I just went out people who wanted to subject me to "low grade abuse and unpleasant behaviour" got a gob-full and if they wanted to take it further they got a different type of gob-full.
When I was a kid walking home in uniform was an automatic trigger as I had to walk through other schools catchment areas ... I doubt there were many days I got home without some verbal abuse (would that happen to girls ?) and it was always on the edge of spilling over. I got shot with airguns on more than one occasion .. that's just life. No point worrying about it.
Then as a bloke you start going to pubs ... you get told which ones you shouldn't go to unless you're local... again you choose.
Do you walk home through the no-go estate or do you go round? We all have to modify our behaviour and put up with low level abuse that is on the edge of escalating to violence. (unless you live on a private estate somewhere I suppose)
I got stabbed a few times, concussion and a few broken ribs a few times but nothing serious ... I could have died a few times but I didn't worry about that, it's not like I had someone to support but that doesn't mean the threat wasn't there any more than riding on the road.
The nearest I came to dying was totally random and ironic walking through the no-go estate when I nearly got flattened by a fridge thrown out of a window of a tower block. This illustrates what I'm trying to say ... I was fully aware walking through that estate at night was dangerous... the police wouldn't even venture close without 2 vans of thick n stupid group... I got accosted a few times but nothing serious then I nearly died from a bloody fridge not even aimed at me.
Despite this I don't go out now and worry about fridges falling from the sky!
However now I have responsibilities I do avoid walking through places "I shouldn't" or answering back to the abuse if I do.
In a fantasy world I could walk through the forbidden estate without fear or go in the dodgy pub but that's not the reality or even (and this is pure fantasy) park a nice car in the estate and expect it to be there when I come back.
FFS, how are we still not getting this..!?
idiotdogbrain
people are not scared because of the media – people are scared/cautious/fed up because of their actual direct experiences of being harassed, groped, intimidated, threatened, etc. by people.
corrected for you
Those of us who are not women, we DO NOT get to tell women how they feel about it. That’s part of the root of the problem – men assuming that they know better that the people who actually experience this behaviour. Just like white people don’t get to tell BAME people how they feel about racism.
No the problem is exceptionalism...
There is no such thing as a BAME person btw... and why on earth do the people you refer to as "White" (again a misnomer) not know about racism?
their actual direct experiences
Very few women have had a stranger try to kill them. The fear is manifesting not experiential, it's purely a matter of perception.
Very few women have had a stranger try to kill them. The fear is manifesting not experiential, it’s purely a matter of perception.
The dismissiveness is borderline offensive, not sure if that's planned? Comparatively few women may have had someone try to kill them (stranfer or not), but a vanishingly small number will not at some point in their lives have faced unwanted attention, that's the point. Some of it merely crude, some plain nasty, and a sizeable chunk of it will be scary - that not many die from it is not a win, it's not acceptable in the 21st century.
@stevextc you are really not getting it at all.
Violence against men comes from certain situations. You may think it's normal to get into fights and have been stabbed a few times, but it really isn't. And it's not that hard to avoid as you say, you can avoid that estate or avoid that end of town on a Saturday night.
But for women, violence, indimidation and abusive behaviour is everywhere. It could be at work, on a bus, in any social sitaution. We're not talking about rape and murder, we're talking about behaviour that puts women in fear.
I don't even know what your point is. Are you saying it's fine and there's nothing to worry about? Or are you saying that men have it just as bad? Because we really really don't. You need to really listen instead of reaching for the 'but what about meee?' card. The fact that you are refusing to really listen and understand is in itself sexist.
FFS, how are we still not getting this..!?
Maybe condense your point into a sentence/shorter paragraph? I’ve read your post a few times and *think* that you are claiming that women don’t have any ‘exceptional’ issues with male violence/abuse* against them? But I wouldn’t wish to put words in your mouth, I’m just not convinced that I get the ‘point’ you’re trying to make.
*It seems this thread has ‘violence’, and ‘abuse’ and ‘harassment’ and ‘sexual vs non-sexual’ all lumped together?
Some tips on here that might be more useful to us. I can't recall the last time I was walking around a city at night, but crashing about the woods on my bike is a regular occurrence.
What can men do to help?
Here are a few ideas for concrete action, from basic etiquette on the streets and trails, to helping nurture more positive attitudes in those around us:If you have children or work with young people, have conversations with them about the issues that are in the media. Talking to young people about equality, diversity and respect for each other from a young age is vital if attitudes and behaviours towards women are to change.
Call out unacceptable behaviour. Don't be a silent bystander if you witness a friend or colleague cat-calling or honking their car horn at women; this type of thing can be really intimidating, call it out.
If you encounter a lone female give her a friendly hello or smile, take your hood down if you are wearing one, step aside and allow plenty of room on the path so you can easily get around each other.
Try not to startle people by appearing suddenly from behind. I always try to alert people when I am a few metres away just to make whoever is in front aware that I'm about to overtake them, so I don't give them a fright. If you're a man out running, imagine how it'd feel to a lone woman to have you suddenly run up behind her, panting and sweating. A cheery hello from a distance might help.
Please don't make comments about what we are wearing to exercise in, it really isn't anything to do with you no matter how harmless it might seem to you.
If you see a woman alone in the hills, don't try to stop her and give her your assistance unless she has asked for it. Would you do the same thing if you saw a man out on his own?
If you are part of a large group of walkers or bikers, please think about how intimidating that can feel to a woman out on her own. Step to the side so that she doesn't feel blocked in by having to run or walk through the middle of you all.
Be an ally. If a female friend tells you she feels threatened by something or someone, try not to shrug it off as nothing. If something is happening which makes her feel this way then see what you can do to help.
My 19yo step daughter gets a ridiculous amounts of unwanted attention and as a result barely goes outside unless she is with us or her boyfriend, that really isn't the same as avoiding a particular bad estate or pub, ffs my earliest memory of sexual harassment was when my sister (about 14yo & skinny as a rake) got her bottom pinched in the Science Museum!
The dismissiveness is borderline offensive, not sure if that’s planned? Comparatively few women may have had someone try to kill them (stranfer or not), but a vanishingly small number will not at some point in their lives have faced unwanted attention, that’s the point. Some of it merely crude, some plain nasty, and a sizeable chunk of it will be scary – that not many die from it is not a win, it’s not acceptable in the 21st century.
One of those things is not like the other, however.
That's like saying a fear of being killed by lighting is valid because you once got rained on.
Your correct low grade harassment and violent physical attacks are not the same but at which point should we switch from being pissed off to being genuinely frightened? And why should we have to accept being made uncomfortable and pissed off on a regular basis anyhow?
From the perspective of a lot of women I haven't been particularly bothered by sexual harassment:
- I haven't been flashed
- I haven't been groped in the workplace
- I haven't been sent pictures of genitals
- I haven't been attacked or raped
- I have been cat called when I'm alone
- I have sat at work and had told colleagues that what they have said is not appropriate
- I have been propositioned by a taxi driver twice my age
- I have been groped in bars and clubs
- I have sat in a professional awards ceremony where the compare told a "joke" about a woman being raped and about 200 men laughed
- I have had a boyfriend hold me round the neck and tell me he could kill me if he wanted to (I don't think he meant it but he was very rapidly an ex)
Where should the line be drawn? Or as several people on this thread have more helpfully said how can they help?
How about start by tackling the low grade stuff and the rest may reduce. Speak to your children about how its not acceptable. Call out harassment where it is safe to do so - maybe have words with that acquaintance or colleague when they say something that could make a women feel unsafe or just uncomfortable.
Recently, in Oldham, a takeaway worker who pulled a woman to the ground and molested her was given a suspended sentence because he was the family breadwinner. This would've been rape had she not got away.
Last week a man was arrested in connection with a a number of sexual assaults along the Bridgwater Canal in Trafford. I have no confidence that the justice system will give him more than a slap on the wrist. I've also seen people dismiss what happened as trivial, laughing because he 'slapped/pinched their arses'.
From the Liverpool Echo "A group of male students were allegedly caught taking photographs up the skirts of girls using the transparent glass staircase, in the centre of the sixth form canteen area, at Broughton Hall Catholic High School on Friday".
Sentences have to be tougher, and boys need educating that certain behaviours are not acceptable.
There are difficult questions that need to had around the use of pornography. I know you all joke about 'hedge porn' but I'm sure most of you are aware of what is now considered 'normal' and how that leads to boys and young men thinking that spitting, slapping, choking and anal is what sex is all about.
Everyone has a part to play and that means calling out your friends 'jokes' and behaviour, and maybe having discussions about porn with your kids that you really don't want to have.
And why should we have to accept being made uncomfortable and pissed off on a regular basis anyhow?
That really is the point.
Been interesting popping back into this thread. A lot of great comments and insights and suggestions. And a minority who just don't seem to get it.
One of those things is not like the other, however.
That’s like saying a fear of being killed by lighting is valid because you once got rained on.
I can look at a weather forecast and wear a waterproof if rain is likely. To continue the shit analogy, women have no way of knowing whether it's likely to "rain" harassment, how heavy the rain will be, they're more likely to be struck by "lightning", which is most likely to strike them in their own home.
So yeah - can we men stop telling women what they should and shouldn't be concerned by and start listening to them instead? Do you not read posts like those above and become outraged at the fear half the population has to live with on a daily basis? I do - outraged and incredibly sad.
I am a 'leftie, Guardian reader' but have learned you cannot dismiss stories because you don't like certain newspapers or websites. I'm quite happy to share this link to Daily Mail. I think STW bans direct links to the Daily Mail but this article includes stories by six teenage girls. If you aren't prepared to read them because of where there are published then you are part of the problem.
This is an honest look at the frequent and commonplace sexual harassment and assault girls are subjected to by their male peers today. Boys get away with this and they grow into men who also get away with it.
https://outdoorsmagic.com/article/how-can-women-feel-safer-in-bothies//blockquote >
Good article that, thanks for sharing
Seemed both topical and relevant to this audience.