Forum menu
About 2 years ago I was out walking my dog along a nearby disused railway line which is popular with walkers. Coming the other way was a group of school kids and adults who had been on a nature trail of the nearby wetlands.
My dog is really cute and friendly and 2 girls walked over to him.Suddenly one of the women in the group,only about 20 feet away,started screaming "don't talk to strange men ".
It was like a punch to the stomach. I felt guilty.Everyone turned around and looked at me.I cut my walk short and went straight home.
@joeegg I've had similar, not as bad as that, but again, cute, friendly dog, kids wanting to say hello, me chatting with them and suddenly a super suspicious adult appears. It's horrible. I guess it's understandable in some ways but it still strikes me as pretty paranoid behaviour.
@BillMC I don't care if that account about the dolphins and the pregnant woman was scientific or not, it's totally believable to me. I swam with wild dolphins in NZ. It was magical, spiritual even. People were sat at the front of the boat chatting on the way home. I sat at the back with tears of pure emotion rolling down my face looking up at the albatross circling above. Not sure I'd do it again as I just worry our presence might have been bothering them. I really hope not but I wouldn't want to take the chance again. Told a friend at the time. She was a person-you-invite-to-a-party friend, no more. She asked me did I hold their dorsal fin and let them tow me? I was a bit confused. Turns out she swam with dolphins in Seaworld Florida. She wasn't even invited to parties after that.
On the subject of violence against women, this was pre mass mobile phone ownership. The Seaworld girl told me she lived alone. I called her house (to invite her to a party probably) and the answerphone message said we are not at home. I asked her about it and she said it was for security. She didn't want people knowing she lived alone.
Women are significantly at less risk of violence everywhere except in the home compared to men.
Feelings seem to trump facts these days.
This has been a good thread. I too as a 40 odd year old white male have wondered what I can do to help the situation. The wife and and I have had a few conversations about it and also what we can do as parents to two young boys.
I feel awful that women feel the way they do about walking home alone at night. I honestly wouldn't feel comfortable walking about a city alone at night but the stories that are being brought to light are quite sobering.
I guess not breaking rule #1 is a good start, it's just trying to help others to do the same that is the hard part.
Women are significantly at less risk of violence everywhere except in the home compared to men.
Feelings seem to trump facts these days.
serious violence
its also the cat calling, the groping etc and also the fear of this happening. Its not just about getting thumped or raped - its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour
won’t solve systemic society wide issues
Psychotic killers are not products of culture or ideology. There is an awful lot of half-baked nonsense currently being discussed around this issue.
@i_scoff_cake Black people are no longer at risk of being lynched in most places any more. It doesn't mean racism doesn't have an effect on their lives.
Women are not at risk of being murdered, raped or beaten by men much of the time. Doesn't mean the fear of violence doesn't have an effect on their lives.
its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour
There is certainly a debate to be had about how much freedom we give up to reduce crime. You can't have both a totally safe society and a free one.
No - but you can have a free society where half the population does not live in justified fear.
Doesn’t mean the fear of violence doesn’t have an effect on their lives.
When it comes to making laws or drafting policy we should distinguish between rational and irrational fears.
We're not only talking about making laws or drafting policy though.
its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour
There is certainly a debate to be had about how much freedom we give up to reduce crime. You can’t have both a totally safe society and a free one.
Giving up offensive behaviour is not an infringement on your freedoms. Why can’t you have a safe society and a free one?
Im confused by this whole debate. It is awful that this poor lady was murdered and I hope justice is properly carried out. I do struggle with the whole debate that this has triggered and how it is being painted as men bad, women good. The short answer is neither are perfect. Do men objectify women, yes they do sometimes, do women objectify men, yes they do sometimes. Does this get exploited by both genders, yes it does, whether its the diet coke man half naked to sell a few more cans of coke or someone on Instagram wearing the smallest bikini they can because likes drive revenue. To the perfume ads that seem to have the perfect versions of both genders in them to flog some smelly liquid. We are supposed to be attracted to each other, thats why we dress up and make ourselves look the best version of us and how we want to be seen when out and about.
The real question is why do people feel vulnerable walking home late at night or whatever the scenario is. What is the perception that something will happen and what it the reality? Im sure there is a big gap between the 2. Which then begs the question, why is there a gap, what has caused it and what can be done to make that gap smaller. I think part of the reason for the gap is the media which focuses on the times it goes horribly wrong, and not the millions of times nothing happens. Im sure there are many many others from the naive misunderstanding to evil deliberate action.
Nobody is suggesting that men are bad and women are good.
Perhaps have another read through the thread before you post.
The rest of what you say, I just don't know where to start with. Sorry.
its also the cat calling, the groping etc and also the fear of this happening. Its not just about getting thumped or raped – its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour
It's easy to look at the murder stats and ignore the constant "low level" stuff that possibly produces more of the feelings of fear, in the same way that low level racism is just as damaging as outright attacks.
I hope that this tragedy sparks a debate and discussion in the same way that BLM did - I've been shocked at what non-white friends have described they have had to put up with when we've had conversations that we never had prior to BLM, and I suspect I'd feel the same if I spoke to female friends and colleagues about harassment. By talking I feel I've had my eyes opened and I've learned so much, and if there was more honest talk, maybe enough would learn that the problem becomes much less of an issue. But it won't be a quick process.
Sorry to everyone else for getting in a spat with this contemptible excuse for a human
Just read this and oakleymuppet does not appear to be that in the least. But anyway.
I hope that this tragedy sparks a debate and discussion in the same way that BLM did – I’ve been shocked at what non-white friends have described they have had to put up with when we’ve had conversations that we never had prior to BLM, and I suspect I’d feel the same if I spoke to female friends and colleagues about harassment.
Well this is what #metoo was about. You can live your life in parts of the UK without getting to know any non-white people so you can be excused for not having first hand experience to listen to (although NOT excused for assuming there isn't a problem) however I doubt you've lived your life without knowing any women. So the question is (without wishing to be accusatory), why didn't you know about this problem already?
My housemate once arranged a party and invited a lot of his mates, many of whom were computery geeks and not in the least bit threatening. Another housemate invited her friend who was really quite attractive to me as well as many of the other men present (we were mid 20s). I might've attempted to get to know this woman but then I noticed that the other men were basically crowding around her and falling over themselves to talk to her; and she looked mightily pissed off. So I didn't get involved - because I realised that I did not have any right to impose myself on her, to force myself into her space.
Now she wasn't under any physical threat, but I have a feeling that when there is a threat it might come from the same place. Many years previously a group of us were getting a train home and some drunk bloke was trying to ingratiate himself with one of our female friends. There was no violence suggested, he was simply 'trying to pull' but what makes him feel entitled to even try to push himself on a woman?
Finding sexual or romantic partners is a key aim for most people, obviously, and we seem to have a culture where men are expected to try to pull women. Perhaps this is where the sense of entitlement comes from which in turn rationalises the harassment, and possibly the resentment and misogyny that follows.
Not only that (what molgrips says above) but try watching an episode of First Dates on Ch 4. Men are almost always expected/want to pay for the meal. There's nothing wrong with that as such. It's an act of generosity but it's also smacks of men taking the 'little lady' out for dinner because the 'little lady' doesn't have access to her own money.
Women expect to be paid for as much as men expect to pay. And like I say, on the surface, there's nothing wrong with it. And I'm not criticising men for offering to pay or women for accepting.
It just sets a tone. It suggest men have to buy women or at least their time. And when you buy something, you own it.
Before anyone gets uptight, it's not men's fault. Neither is it womens. It is just something that needs to be addressed so there is a bit more equality in such matters.
When it comes to making laws or drafting policy we should distinguish between rational and irrational fears.
Just because you don't happen to share the same fears or receive the same treatment, doesn't make it irrational. It may be a low proportion or risk but that is a society building the fear and ultimately the behaviour and the expectation of women (and others) to mitigate that risk.
Noone is suggesting changing the law based on a minority 'feeling'
As others have honestly stated above, it is not actually women only that suffer. I'm not actually articulate enough to explain how I'd like.
I'm trying to be very careful with my wording as I absolutely do not believe it to be women good, man bad, not at all. In society it is actually primarily a woman's problem - the expectation of altering behaviour, be careful in this situation or that - I'm very cautious and concerned that this will shift from being a woman's problem to being a man's when it isn't - it is a sociatal one.
Very interesting thread with a lot of good points raised. That anyone feels unsafe doing something as simple as walking from A to B is a horrible thing. I’ve no idea what the answer is to be honest.
Calling behaviour out could be a good thing but I have a neat scar on my skull from doing so. I was walking home from a local pub in my youth and saw a man dragging a woman by the arm. She was crying, he was yelling. I attempted to intervene, the man got violent, I reciprocated. Running away wasn’t an option as I was genuinely worried for the lady. Next thing I know she’s removed a high heeled shoe and belted me in the back of the head with it. At least he wasn’t yelling and dragging her when they walked off.
One of my ex work colleagues is a very attractive young lady and good friend. On nights out she used to get very fed up of blokes trying to chat her up. I spent lots of time politely asking men to leave her alone. I ended up having to have words with some of the warehouse staff too for basically hassling her. She just shouldn’t have to put up with that sort of thing.
I walk quite a lot, to and from work, just to clear my head etc. I’ve never felt threatened or worried about where I’m walking. I have, however, altered my route or crossed over the road when I’ve seen people (men or women) looking a bit skittish. I’d hate to think anyone would view me as a threat but at the same time I’d not want to be responsible for causing somebody unnecessary stress.
Psychotic killers are not products of culture or ideology. There is an awful lot of half-baked nonsense currently being discussed around this issue.
Very few murders of women are carried out by sociopathic men, the vast majority of them are carried out by emotionally unstable men.
And psychotic means delusional.
serious violence
its also the cat calling, the groping etc and also the fear of this happening. Its not just about getting thumped or raped – its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour
Huge +1
It comes down to empathy doesn't it, try to imagine walking in the shoes of someone who doesn't feel as secure physically. The fact than men are the majority of the victims of violence doesn't mean to say that womens feelings on the matter can be invalidated.
Feelings seem to trump facts these days.
A major internet dating site did a poll a while back (I forget which one it was) asked both men and women what their fears were on a first date. Men (and women for that matter) said a bunch of banal things that you'd expect; that their date would't find them attractive, wouldn't laugh at their jokes, and normal, all what you'd expect, except for one difference, lots of women also said I hope I don't get injured, harmed, raped or murdered. No men said anything like that.
These women weren't hoping not to run into "Psychotic killers" they're just hoping that the man she's agreed to on a date with,doesn't hurt her, and while the statistics may say that men suffer from violence from other men more than women, when you single in on sexual violence, the statistics are completely different.
I read a statement today that essentially said "All men 'benefit' from violence against women, it reinforces the status quo of the expectancy of obedience, sex and power". It's a depressing thought, no? If we really want to change things, then don't exceptionalise it to "psychos" or other it to "monsters". The murder that sparked last nights vigil was a police officer who, as it turns out, had a partner...he wasn't a monster, he's just a sad bloke.
I was sorry to read that some folk have been injured while protecting others or standing up, I'm willing to bet though, given the same circumstances, you'd do it again.
TJ and Oakley Muppet - I thinks it’s time for you to stop and think about your arguing. This is a good thread where people are sharing constructive views which will help to address the issues. The two of you are being aggressive in a way which highlights part of the issue in this thread. You both contribute thoughtfully and constructively elsewhere why not here.
Several of the posts here have reminded to to conduct myself in an overtly non threatening fashion - such as crossing the street to help reduce fear, not because I am a threat but because a lone woman does not know that.
20 years ago I would intervene if I saw or heard the low level abuse but now I have family to think about and with the state of some of the lunatics around I can’t risk me not being around. What a state society is in when we find it hard to look out for each other.
As a middle aged man I can’t really add anything constructive except that myself and other men need to not take the measures suggested as a personal slight but a way of helping.
We appear to have stopped arguing. I agree with most of what TJ says - I just have a different view of humanity and the causes of violence to him.
I have to issue with TJ as a person, I like his posts - he's just got the wrong end of the stick about where my beliefs lie.
He's free to his opinions though I guess? My days of getting wound up with forum users are over.
I read a statement today that essentially said “All men ‘benefit’ from violence against women, it reinforces the status quo of the expectancy of obedience, sex and power”. It’s a depressing thought, no? If we really want to change things, then don’t exceptionalise it to “psychos” or other it to “monsters”.
Yup. Spot on.
another significant difference is I’ve never felt intimidated by a woman or even group of women when walking alone at night,
Another thing to remember is, it's not just *at night*.
As a bloke, yes I too feel frightened walking through certain areas late at night, I bunch my keys in my fist (pointlessly, as I couldn't punch my way out of a wet paper bag, but they're big and it gives me a certain comfort), i've been beaten up for no reason.
But
I have (almost) never feared violence just in the course of a regular working day.
My wife was harrassed *on her way to school*.
Another time, somone assumed she was a prostitute and tried to get her into his car; she was 17, waiting at a bus-stop, mid-afternoon on a weekday (in jeans and a hoodie).
In her 20's she got punched in the face while working at a shop because she refused to give some bloke a refund.
Recently, in her 40's, in our local, and some guy tried to pay for her drinks. She politely declined, but he insisted, and she firmly declined, and he still insisted, and suddenly a nice afternoon in the pub is interrupted by the calculation: Is this about to turn nasty? He's not taking my words on board. How do I get out of this?
The threat of violence is present for her in a low-level way that it just isn't for me. The kind of person who punches a 7 stone shop assistant out of petulance just would not punch someone the same size as them.
I suppose consideration & respect are 2 things that men can do better on.
If I'm being honest I wouldn't really think im freaking out a woman of I was walking behind them at night, unless I was really close, I suppose that's male priveledge ( 40 something white bloke again). but it's something I really should (tho it'd be very rare that id be out on my own at night, my pub n club days are long over!)
I am aware as a man I have it different, my female colleague, who also gets the same train journey as me, has to consider her route home, in a way that I don't.
Should I be offering to walk her home? (it'd be an extra hour on my commute)
The other part I can think of is around respect, I have 3 young boys and a daughter and I really want to impress on them how important it is to respect others, particularly the boys regards women.
At uni I wasn't the best behaved (, nothing bad, just a laddish attitude it was the 90s Loaded, FHM etc I believe that did influence me at the time, I guess also growing up with page 3, carry on films etc & quite a sexist & racist grandfather didn't help), in my group of mates. We were dicks, late night drinking in halls that certainly pissed off & probably intimidated the women in our halls. Nothing beyond that, but it's something I'm not proud of now.
(I met my now wife then & just discussing this with her she says I wasnt as bad as that)
I'd really like my kids not to be like that though, so I think teaching them to respect others, especially women is key. I know I can't insulate them from things like porn, but I can make sure they realise that it isn't real and that in the real world its respecting others that's important.
Apropos of nothing : a colleague from california who moved to London, loved it that here she could wear hotpants in hot weather without being cat-called & wolf whistled the way she would have been routinely at home.
As a few people have said, there are some very good points raised here. It is definitely a topic that needs ongoing discussion.
I've modified my behaviour when out walking for a few years. It followed a discussion with some friends where my wife and our female friends were talking about some advice offered to women as how not to be seen as a target for a rapist. We were all pretty disgusted with the victim-blaming approach. Our female friends suggested that men needed to know how not to be seen as a potential rapist given that rapists are almost exclusively men ( https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017, see section 8 in particular). Wherever possible I try to give women space - cross the road, walk on the road where crossing isn't possible, I take my hood down if I'm wearing one whenever I can, not following closely.
The human nature argument is a pretty facile one. Most humans can exert self-restraint. The fact that misogyny isn't a hate crime, the police failing many women in cases of sexual assault, the police perpetrating violence against women who were peacefully paying their respect to a woman who very likely died at the hands of an officer, the portrayal of women in society in general, the feeling of impunity when there are no consequences for your behaviour, aid violence against women at all levels.
To quote Margaret Atwood: “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them; women are afraid that men will kill them.”
Education and respect.
Both almost absent in around 51% of the male population.
The tabloids dont help.
What can you do?
If you are a parent teach your kids to be kind, have respect for others and to interact. I am shocked at the sexism already at my kids infant school.
The Dads are to afraid to have their boys like pink or play with dolls. The Mums excuse the boys bad behaviour and their laziness with "boys will be boys".
Their behaviour is so bad the girls are already learning to fear and not mix with them.
How can we expect good intersex relationships when they can't even talk to each other at 5.
At work apply the Rock test https://www.google.com/amp/s/humanparts.medium.com/amp/p/73c45e0b49af
Yes call out sexism when you see it but from the experiences above be careful.
Like any change - be the change you want to see.
How can we expect good intersex relationships when they can’t even talk to each other at 5.
Like any change – be the change you want to see.
Both valid points. I've been involved with my lads Scout group since he was a Beaver aged 6. The dynamics of units with girls in are totally different and more positive to the all boy groups.
I am shocked at the sexism already at my kids infant school.
That's not ideal.
The Dads... The Mums...
Oh
Women are significantly at less risk of violence everywhere except in the home compared to men.
Feelings seem to trump facts these days.
Statistics can be very deceptive at times and I'm pretty sure we are talking about sexual violence and intimidation here.
A couple of years back my we (wife, me & two daughters) pulled over to help a woman who was out late at night and clearly distressed, I was horrified to see how long it took her to realise we were a family of mostly women and just how terrified she was of a random car pulling over to help her.
I resent women having to modify their behaviour or clothes to go out. Wolf-whistles are about exercising power not about getting friendly with you,
Agreed.
I know it is pretty insignificant but I was out riding with a couple of mates yesterday and during a couple of our normal stop-and-chat moments we were giving this subject a bit of thought. Mainly we were trying to put ourselves in the position of a woman we might meet while running, cycling, walking back from town etc and thinking about how we minimise any stress and anxiety our presence might cause.
Small steps, but maybe some evidence that a message is getting through.
Women are significantly at less risk of violence everywhere except in the home compared to men.
(Serious conservative anti-woke grifter face on)
Masculinity is NOT toxic 😡
its also about the continual low level offensive behaviour
This seems to be a symptom of modern society, possibly fuelled by social media where everyone is encouraged to believe the pithiness and popular impact of the comment is more important than engaging in a dialog where you are willing to listen to other peoples’ points of view.
(Serious conservative anti-woke grifter face on) Masculinity is NOT toxic 😡
Just like this.
^ Did I need to go the extra mile and label /satire?
Probably/sadly.
More than happy to discuss how popular media and partisan prattle/pithy punditry has undermined progress with addressing toxic masculinity. Which is the issue I was attempting to encapsulate via parody/satire.
So I am just back from walking the dog.
Walking up a path, saw a man in the distance put his dog on a lead. Mine was on a lead anyway as not got great recall and it was an area where it's not safe to let her off. She is a super friendly dog and always wants to say hello to other dogs but, having had a reactive dog in the past, I always ask if it's ok for her to do so.
He confirmed his dog was friendly and while they were greeting each other he asked if I could not see that as we were approaching.
I said of course not.
He then started having a go at me for reasons best known to himself.
I let myself down, and more importantly my dog down, and instead of walking away, reacted and the f word came out from both of us.
Now, he was clearly a weapons grade ahole and obviously I could have handled things better.
I just wonder how it would have played out if I had been 6ft and built.
Quite possibly worse.
Not sure there's much point to this story. I'm just finding it harder and harder to share this planet with people such as this.
Dickyboy
A couple of years back my we (wife, me & two daughters) pulled over to help a woman who was out late at night and clearly distressed, I was horrified to see how long it took her to realise we were a family of mostly women and just how terrified she was of a random car pulling over to help her.
I have had this situation plenty of times over the years - seeing a woman broken down at the side of the road - and have never stopped.
I then end up spending the rest of my day feeling guilty & wondering whether I should have stopped to offer help; how would I feel if I saw in the news there had been an accident involving a broken down car in that location, or someone with sinister intentions having stopped instead & abducted/mugged/assaulted that person etc.
To any women engaged in this thread - what would be the best way to react to this situation? Perhaps dial 101 to let the local police there is a woman broken down on her own? Do nothing? Stop & offer help from a distance?
It's terrible to feel that I don't know what the best way to approach this situation is - all you want to do is help, but worry you are going to be labelled as a leering predator or a sexist pig for offering a woman help (I am perfectly capable of looking after myself...) or scare the woman out of their skin because you have stopped near them while they are in a vulnerable position.
I've just remembered a situation at uni like this. A mate & I were driving into uni & stopped at some traffic lights, my mate noticed the car in front had the filler flap open & the cap was clipped over it still. He jumped out & ran up to the car to sort it out before the lights changed. This was a busy junction on the Uxbridge Road.
I don't think he even thought he would be seen as a threat, but as he approached the window to get the woman's attention she started screaming & scrabbled to hit the central locking button on the car door. At the point where he jumped out of the car, we hadn't even registered if it was a man or woman in the car. He raised his hands in a non-offensive posture & started talking to her to explain what he was doing. Once she calmed down she realised what he was saying, let him put the filler back & close the flap & then admitted that she thought we were going to carjack her & steal her car!! She had kids in the car as well.
We found it funny in hindsight that she thought we could be considered carjackers, but also slightly mortified that was her initial reaction. Looking back at it, he should not have run towards the car, but he was conscious that the lights were likely to change soon, and we'd then have blocked traffic.
I offer help to women struggling with buggies on stairs etc. and have always had a positive response to this, but this is always in busy shopping areas etc. I have to say, I've never thought whether this would be misconstrued, or cause the person to be fearful or distressed.
I suppose I know the person that I am, but a stranger doesn't.
I also stopped a few years back while driving home in my car from work. I was almost home & there was a woman cycling along on a shopper bike with a virtually invisible rear light. This was in a town, not a country lane scenario. The roads were busy, it was dark & drizzling - I felt like I should try to help out - she looked like an accident waiting to happen.
I overtook, pulled up ahead, got out of the car & managed to get her to stop. I explained why I had tried to stop her as her light was not visible & I thought it was a dangerous situation. It turned out her boyfriend had fitted her coil lock mount in such a position that the lock completely obscured the light & she hadn't realised. We removed the lock & she put it in the basket on the bike.
This was another situation where I really agonised over whether to stop or not. If it had been a man I wouldn't have thought twice, but I realised in this situation it was going to be very hard for me to not look like I was stopping there to either give her abuse for being a cyclist, or just be some kind of weirdo predator.
Some really thoughtful comments on this thread. Another angle that could be taken if you’re involved in education (have kids at school or are a governor/pta member maybe) is to ask questions of the PSHE provision. Are topics like consent/porn/revenge porn/sexting etc being covered? Can the materials used be shared with parents so those conversations can be continued at home?
@stumpy01
I'd like you to stop and offer to help.
Maybe call 101, give the call handler your details including your car reg, tell the person you've done that, ask her to confirm with 101 and then help.
Don't know if that would work?
@thepilot - not a bad idea to ring 101 first & make it clear I am doing so, although when I have rung them in the past it can take 10 mins or more to actually get through to someone. Worth a try though.
Other option could perhaps be to pull up a distance from the car, rather than right near it & shout to them if they need assistance.
Could always suggest that they call 101 to explain what's going on, to put the woman in control of that situation - i.e I could say to the woman that I am on the phone to 101, but how would she know that I wasn't just pretending with the phone at my ear?
Regarding angry dog bloke - it sounds like you offended his dog training ability, or besmirched the good nature of his dog 😉
Although how you would be able to tell that from a distance I don't know! Sometimes it's just that (a lot of) people are dickheads.
The PM, from the BBC:
"I think the fundamental issue that we have to address as a country, and as a society and as a government is that ... women in particular must feel that when they make serious complaints about violence, about assault, that they are properly heard.
"We are going to make sure that that happens."
The prime minister's comments come after criticism that a new policing bill does not go far enough to address violence against women and girls.
All very well to be heard/listen, it is the action after the listening that is the difficult part. And the listening is not the fundamental part, the doing is the fundamental part surely? (Unless you read an awful lot into the "properly" in "properly heard".)
“I think the fundamental issue that we have to address as a country, and as a society and as a government is that … women in particular must feel that when they make serious complaints about violence, about assault, that they are properly heard.
Interesting that he claims the fundamental issue is not the violence itself, but the efficiency of the complaints process thereafter