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Well its good to be misunderstood. As a vet in the consulting room the only thing I can charge for is my time (and a little profit on the drugs, but as has been hinted at, internet pharmacies are eating into that). So if you come to see me, and it take 5 minutes, very little explanation and simple reassurance, that costs me as much as someone who takes 15 minutes and all my powers of reassurance and 30 years of experience. Now we could charge clients differing amounts depending on the complexity, or whether we liked them or how much they complained every time they came for their recheck, but most practices charge a set amount per consultation. Like so many thing in life, unfair to some.
Its only going to get worse. Numbers of vets are rising, numbers of dogs and cats are falling - every pet is having to support a bigger part of a vet. Requirements for practice equipment and operational standards are becoming increasingly demanding from a legal, regulatory and client expectation stand point. The working time directives alone are a nightmare for the profession. Despite 25 years of badgering the public, less than 20% of pets are insured. In less densely populated parts of the country veterinary provision is no longer a viable business option.
You'll complain about us till we're gone, then you'll complain 'cause we have gone.
Resignedly & miserably yours,
Colin
I have to say Donaldsons vets in Huddersfield are excellent. Always had first class service, listened to is and our concerns about our elderly cat being affected by injections. Costs aren't cheap but seem reasonable and not £50 for a check up ever. New buildings (even a dog swimming pool/trainer type thing!!!) and when I checked the price of the drugs against online pharmacies they were within a pound or so, certainly not enough of a difference to go elsewhere. I think they do an excellent job and wouldn't go anywhere else.
I adopted a dog a few years back, when I took it out late on the first night it was passing blood in its faeces... Quick call to the vet and off we went - any man that's prepared to get out of bed at 1:30am and stick a finger up a dog's bum is worthy of respect, IMHO.
Vets are proffesionals so I have no problem paying their consultation fees which at our vet is £25 a pop, which is probably about the same/less than to see a Consultant.
What has surprised me is the mark up on drugs though.
Mrs FD always takes our dog to the vets now, as being a Dr she is fully aware of alot of the drugs routinely prescribed. Which in alot of cases are the same as the human variety. Their prices tend to be 2 - 3 times higher than the human variety that you can get round the corner from Boots.
Also our dog takes a low dose of anti-inflammatory every day. The vets want to charge over 100% more for the drug that we now get over the internet (from a ligit UK source). Even the vet thought it was barmey they charged so much when you can get it cheaper else where.
I live in Surrey and I freely admit it's an expensive area for pretty much everything. I'd have been perfectly happy with 25 Pounds for a consultation I think that would have been pretty fair. I think the drugs cost an additional £7.00 on top of the 49.99 fee.
The dog is insured however the excess is £100 so not able to claim for this.
I am absolutely not having a go at all vets, just mine!
FunkyDunk - 2 comments on that. Whilst it would seem we charge silly prices compared with equivalent human meds, we are unfortunately bound by the "drug cascade" which effectively means that, even if there are identical human alternatives, we must prescribe veterinary specific versions that are produced in much smaller volumes and are therefore much more expensive.
As for the online pharmacies, as mentioned previously, the fact that they can buy in huge volumes direct from drug companies and have very basic overheads mean they can often sell drugs for less than vets pay direct from their wholesaler.
That said, I have worked in some places where drug mark ups are a little excessive. As ever, if you don't like what you're getting, shop around. Don't expect to get bargain basement pricing and the best available treatment though - it rarely happens.
I had to get private health care in Ammann recently when I fell funny on my arm. 5 minutes with a GP, 1 x-ray and some anti inflamatries cost me 476USD.
Vetenary care is cheap.
Good morning. Can I stress again that I am not complaining about the cost of the consultation? I am complaining about bad service.
From the Vetoquinol website:
"In the course of field clinical trials loose stools liquid diarrhoea decrease in appetite arrhythmia and collapse were reported in some dogs. Treatment was continued depending on the severity of the undesirable effect observed."
In 4 years I have not been asked one single time if she has loose stools, decrease in appetite, arrhythmia or collapse.
Sympathomimetics may produce a wide range of effects most of which mimic the results of excessive stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system (e.g. effects on heart rate and blood pressure).
In 4 years her heart has been listed to, but only after I asked the vet to do it. She has had her blood pressure taken once, this year, because I asked the vet to do it.
Phenylpropanolamine a sympathomimetic drug may affect the cardiovascular system especially blood pressure and heart rate and should be used with caution in animals with cardiovascular diseases.
Care should be exercised in treating animals with severe renal or hepatic insufficiency diabetes mellitus hyperadrenocorticism glaucoma hyperthyroidism or other metabolic disorders.
Never been asked anything about any of these, or had any tests. Or can vets tell if a dog has any of them by just looking?
(FBK: I have been able to get Propalin from the internet (offshore) without a prescription. It was real too.)
Do you see my point? I have a dog of a breed which has a host of breed-related illnesses but who is also on lifetime medication with its own side effects, yet who, in four years, has had just one single blood pressure check (at my insistence) and sporadic heart listenings (at my insistence), and no mention or check for the other things mentioned on Vetoquinol's website and contained on every leaflet in every bottle sold.
How would you feel if you rang the vet, explained to the receptionist at length why you were coming, asked the question you wanted the vet to answer, and then, when you got there, the vet looked at you blankly and said "Yes, how can I help you today?". Then you have to go all through it all again, only for the vet to say they don't know and will have to look it up and please make another appointment and come back.
Seriously, and I'm not trying to be nasty or anti-vet or wind you up, but how would you feel?
On the plus side, Sam used to cut himself regularly and the vets were always great at sewing him back together and when he got cancer they came out and put him to sleep at home, so minimising distress to all.
I am complaining about bad service
So why the hell have you repeatedly gone back to the same veterinary practice, if you have so little confidence in them ......why are you only [i]now[/i] considering changing ?
My pets mean sufficient to me, to guarantee that I would very quickly stop going to a practice which I had no confidence in.
And btw, I think it's a bit of cheek you insisting that your precious Missy to be seen only by a female vet. We once had a German Shepard who was highly suspicious of black people (as well as people who wore hats) but I wouldn't have dreamt on insisting that he was only seen by a white vet.
I suggest that you seek advise concerning sorting out your neurotic dog. Not least because almost half the human population is male.
EL - I am enjoying the irony of you having a racist dog!
What kind of hats? Or was it just any old hat?
Well it was rather embarrassing mefty. He also didn't like people with disabilities, specially if they had a limp....... a right little Nazi. Still, what would you expect from a German Shepard, eh ? 😐
(FBK: I have been able to get Propalin from the internet (offshore) without a prescription. It was real too.)
So you have managed to illegally import drugs - I have no argument for that if you're happy to break several laws. Just how are you certain it was the "real thing" you were buying?
EL - I'm trying not to laugh at your comments - not really PC are they 🙂
To be honest, I wouldn't mind if someone would rather see a particular vet for whatever reason, personal or professional. You make a good point regarding leaving a practice if not happy with the service though.
Ooo, why so angry Ernie?
1) I have not repeatedly gone back to the same practice, I have changed, but have experienced, to a greater or lesser degree, the same lack in all.
2) As you know, when I first got Missy she was a very messed up girl. I had to go back to the start with lots of things and one of those things was to help her regain confidence in men. The vet is a scary place for many animals (not just Missy) so in the beginning I asked that (in a practice with male and female vets) she be seen by a woman. That is not cheeky, that was one step along the way in changing her from a frightened unsocialised dog into a confident happy dog. There is still work to do, but she is much improved, it's good to see, has been hard. Now, I don't mind what sex the vet is, but in the beginning it was very important that it was a woman.
3) FTIW, if I had a dog who was nervous around black people I would probably not take it to a black vet. Dogs ain't racist, but a bite is a bite, and I wouldn't like to see a vet (of any colour, race or sex) get bitten or have to deal with the fallout. Some dogs just don't like some things, why add to a stressful situation if it can easily be avoided?
I suggest that you seek advise concerning sorting out your neurotic dog. Not least because almost half the human population is male.
Bitchy. I have sought advice, and continue to do so. "My precious Missy" is much improved. Read my post before pressing the launch button 😆
BTW, it's advice (noun), to advise is the verb.
How would you feel if you rang the vet, explained to the receptionist at length why you were coming, asked the question you wanted the vet to answer, and then, when you got there, the vet looked at you blankly and said "Yes, how can I help you today?". Then you have to go all through it all again, only for the vet to say they don't know and will have to look it up and please make another appointment and come back.
Yep that looks pretty bad. I wouldn't be happy if that happened with us. But there will be very few appointments where I'll be informed beforehand by the receptionist the details of clinical questions the client want to ask - even the most experienced of our receptionists wouldn't feel confident they'd passed the details correctly on to the vet - they have no clinical training. They'd expect the client to ask the vet directly.
I have 3 suggestions/comments.
1) I can't remember ever seeing a dog with noted side effect to propalin, no matter how long they've been on it and despite what it says on the leaflet. I know that's no consolation if yours is the dog that has the side effects, but overall it safe to use at the right dose.
2) If the leaflet in the packet worries you ask about other treatments that might be available. I'm assuming she's being treated for incontinence, there's at least one common alternative to propalin, which frequently works ( and has a different, but smaller range of side effects).
3) Phone up and ask to speak to a partner/director/senior vet about your concerns. Repeat what you've said here. They'll be used to the questions about the frequency of the revisits and the cost, so don't be too surprised if you get stock answers about policy and law etc for them - perhaps concentrate on your clinical worries and service experience. If they don't give you a satisfactory response then maybe you should think about going elsewhere.
Colin
FBK, I knew it was real because she didn't leak wee.
Um, what's going on here? I have had years of bad service from vets and am now having to defend MY position?
A well-known medicine with well-publicised possible side effects yet in four years at several different practices have never been asked about some of them and infrequently asked about the others - and then only after my prompting them.
And you guys are having a go at me? Shouldn't this be the other way around?
Ooo, why so angry Ernie?
Not angry, just thought I would attempt to counter your endless tirades against vets. A profession which I have the utmost respect for.
BTW, I can't help feeling that the practice you are leaving, will all breath a collective sigh of relief........you sound like the nightmare client to me. If you don't mind me saying so.
Deadly - it could be any hat, although iirc, there was a particular dislike for trilbies.
My wife is a vet and just last night she was telling me about a survey of the profesion which showed that about 10% earn less than £10 an hour. That's what five years at unversity will get you. In part this may be down to the silly hours that some vets work. The same survey showed how many people work more than a 100 hour week. I think it may have been again about 10% and from memory the average working week was around the 50 hour mark.
The professions are made up of human beings, even the legal profession, guess what I do, and so there will be a variation in quality between vets. Some will be better than others and as said above if you are not happy with the service provided clients should go elsewhere. Talk to your vet though if you are not happy with the service you are getting. They may think you you are perfectly happy with what they are doing for you. If you are still not happy go elsewhere. The history wil be passed to your new vets which should help them pick up any ongoing treatment. If the service provided is sufficiently poor then complain to the RCVS. Yes, it is vets investigating vets but they do take complaints seriously.
My animals cost me a great deal - the vet charges a large amount, but I have insurance to ensure that I have a known exposure. Still have an excess of £70, and two daft dogs who like to jump through fences rather than over them.
If I add up the cost of food, insurance + excesses paid, vaccinations, dog walker (they need more walks per day than I can give, unfortunately), damaged furniture...... it's around £5000 per annum.
And I'd not change a thing.
Kasper the lurcher was at the vet yesterday for the second time in a month. He was badly bitten on his hindquarters a month ago and his vet cleaned him up and prescribed some antibios for a very reasonable amount - no stitches required.
Yesterday was just his booster jabs which he endured stoically and which set me back only £25. Westways vet in Houghton-Le-Spring if anyone cares.
Owning a dog is blooming expensive though when you sit and add it all up; tinned food, dried food, insurance, vet's bills, chews and treats, toys, etc etc.
Worth every penny though....
EDIT: wot he said - almost word for word 🙂
Karinofnine
ive had experience of a dobe on propalin, has missy been spayed?
take a look on [url= http://www.dobermannrehome.co.uk/forum/ ]DRA website (forum)[/url] and see if you can get a good vet locally by recommendation.
Kof9 - I wouldn't say people are having a go at you. If you read the posts, there's some very good advice re changing vets, changing medication or complaining to the relevant authorities if you feel you have been mistreated.
I am surprised though, that you seem very concerned re the potential side effects of a very safe drug and yet quite happily break UK and EU law re importation of drugs without authorization, and you are willing to risk using a product you cant possibly have know was genuine in order to save money.
Ernie - endless tirades? This is the first time I've ever brought this up. Nightmare client? Yes, I DO mind you saying.
FBK. I felt bad about getting it from abroad, after I got it I worried that it might not be genuine (it was) - although after having seen a tv programme, apparently no one can be sure any drugs are genuine. Anyhoo, I no longer obtain from abroad. It wasn't particularly to save money, more a protest at the empty gesture of going to a vet.
Goodness me! I am not complaining about the cost.
I am forced to get her checked. Since I am forced to go, should I not expect to have checks to see if she has developed any of the things it says on the leaflet that comes with the medicine?
Is that so unreasonable?
If yes, why is it?
I don't want to change medication. I want to have checks made and be reassured that she is ok on it. I have never been assured that it is safe, or that it is widely prescribed. I have a question about it that has been pooh-poohed by the last vet, and not answered properly. I will ask the new vet on Saturday.
IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CONSULTATION FEES.
Karin - You're right in almost all you say, but you'll not resolve it here. My suggestion is that you find a canine equivalent of STW and ask for vet recommendations which are local to you. Keep looking until you find a vet you and your dog are happy with.
there was a particular dislike for trilbies.
I'm going to train that into the new pup 🙂
propalin is safe and is very widely prescribed, this kind of incontinence is very common with Dobes in particular...
Yeah, I will keep looking. Maybe the new practice we are going to on Saturday will be The One! 🙂
Kof9, it seems to me your concern is mostly about communication.
Propalin is a very widely prescribed drug which is extremely safe and I cannot rememeber a dog having an adverse reaction to it in 15 years.
The package inserts can make scary reading for most drugs but some time spent reassuring you regarding this would hopefully have eased your concerns.
Again you are worried re your dogs possiblity of developing a heart problem. A discussion re the clinical signs that may develop or if you are really worried then a referral to a cardiologist for a scan might help allay your fears.
Dogs live for the day and don't worry about the future. They can teach us a lot about happiness that way.
soobalias, thank you, are you a vet? The few moments it would take a vet to at least say those things to me would have made so very much difference.
I have purposely stayed away from the internet on this subject as I didn't want to be distracted by well-meaning amateur opinions, hearsay and Chinese whispers re Propalin. I often research stuff to do with me, bikes, the car, the computer, but because Missy is so important (indeed, "precious" according to Ernie), I have left it entirely to the vet...
As stated, with my other animals I was happy with the treatment and advice I received. (Only had one complaint over a period of some 35-odd years).
A happy-ending vet story: I once took a hen to the vet. She had been sat on by the cockerel (euphemism, you know what it is that cockerels do) and his spur had ripped her side. She didn't have much skin left and what was there was necrotic and stunk.
Now, bear in mind this was a rural area, where hens are (usually treated as) commodities (not pets) and chicks with black marks can be bought for 50p from the chicken factory before they are gassed. I rang the vet and made an appointment. The receptionist asked if it was for one of the cats or the dog, I said no, it was for a chicken. So funny, a stunned silence, then "... a ... [i]chicken[/i]?" yes, a chicken. The vet was also surprised but anyway he filled a monster syringe with some luminous yellow liquid and injected it into Boss Chicken who didn't even flinch and went on to make a complete recovery. Brilliant.
(The bill came to enough to pay for a few dozen ex factory chicks but it was worth it).
Ok, totally off-topic now, so that will do from me on this one. Thanks all.
Kof9. Just a couple more comments now I'm back on a proper keyboard.
In relation to your concern re side effects. I would agree with the comments re propalin being a very safe drug. Whilst it is a sympathomimetic, it is quite specific and targetted in it's actions and, unless grossly overdosed, I have never seen any effects on the cardio-vascular system. Drug companies have to list any adverse effects seen during trials, no matter how infrequent and no matter what the circumstances.
I also agree that perhaps your current vet should have taken some more time to discuss Missy's individual needs with you and allay any concerns, especially if these are concerns you have mentioned in the past. Equally, the consultation has to be a 2 way exercise - I would hope that, if any dog I saw was showing signs of metabolic disease (many of which are obvious such as drinking excessively, vomiting, eating lots/nothing), the owner would mention that during the consultation.
My comments re online/foreign drugs still stand though -if an owner came to my practice having imported drugs from abroad, rightly or wrongly, that may well affect my willingness to go above and beyond to help them.
It sounds like you are doing the right thing by changing practices. I hope you get the answers you are looking for.
Yes, I DO mind you saying.
Well that's a bit of shame really then. Because you are slagging off a profession in general, and one practice in particular, and the vets concerning with your allegations are obviously not able to defend themselves on here. So expect to be challenged by someone who has a completely different opinion of the profession. And yes, on the evidence you have provided, you sound like a nightmare client to me.
.
My wife is a vet and just last night she was telling me about a survey of the profession which showed that about 10% earn less than £10 an hour.
One of the vets which I have used for the last 20 odd years is internationally renowned and one of Britain's foremost avian vets. And just about anyone who keeps exotic birds in the South East of England will have heard of him - if not used him.
He has over the years given an unfaltering commitment to my pets. And I have been able to phone him on his mobile any day and at any time. When he has been away abroad on international conventions/talks etc, he has told me that in case of an emergency I could send him a text message and he would reply.
I have long suspected that he has repeatedly undercharged me for treatment and medication - just a phone call to him would result in medication being popped in the post and sent first class to me. I have in front of me a bill which he sent the beginning of last month with a course of antibiotics, the total amount, which also includes a previous course of antibiotics, is for £16.50p. I remember thinking "that sounds ridiculously cheap". It was .... last month he was declared bankrupt. His website :
Quote :
[i]"I have struggled financially for many years, and fought hard to continue my business as an avian veterinarian, albeit now partially retired. Sadly I have been unable to resist crippling debts any longer, and on Thursday 4th November 2010 I was formally declared bankrupt".[/i]
It's a shame that he wasn't more of a hard-nosed businessman,and didn't charge me and his other clients more. As a result, we have lost a hard-working and dedicated vet with an almost unparalleled lifetime's experience and knowledge. I hope other vets don't allow themselves to become victims of simular circumstances......charge the ****ers what it's worth !
EL - that is indeed sad news but an unfortunate sign of the times.
It reminds me of a story a friend of mine told me last year. A rival company had closed down in the neighbouring village to him and several clients had come across to his printing business. One particularly stubborn gentleman couldn't understand why my friend wouldn't match the now bankrupt companies fees!
FBK, thanks. A little customer care/reassurance would have gone a long way! 🙂
BTW I have never posted any questions about Propalin on here (or anywhere else) specifically because I didn't want to 'steal' knowledge/time from a vet (rather than pay for it properly via a face to face consultation).
I look at my dog and think "Is she ok? Isn't she ok? Is her heart ok? Is she listless, or is she calm, what is listless anyway? Does she bark too much? Does barking at noises constitute over excitement? What is over excitement, is she stressed? Does she drink too much? What is too much? Has she got high blood pressure, is it too high, is it because we are at the vet and she is stressed? am I doing the right thing(s)" and so on, until my head explodes (not literally). She can't talk so I rely on you guys, if you ain't talking either it makes things difficult. Thanks for your time. (Where is your practice, anywhere near CR6?)
Ernie, Ernie, you're not reading my posts properly are you?
I have stated that I have had years of great treatment and advice for various animals but that in the case of Missy and the Propalin, sadly, things have gone amiss. Read.My.Posts.
I have also stated that I am happy to pay the consultation fees. Just to repeat that: I AM HAPPY TO PAY THE CONSULTATION FEES, I am not complaining about the level of fees.
I have stated I find the drug prices are a great deal higher than the internet. I expect drug prices to be higher in a vet's practice, but some vets charge DOUBLE for a bottle of Propalin - that is hard to swallow. At one bottle every 44 days it is also expensive.
Yours sincerely,
Nightmare Client 🙄 😆
P.S. So you put your vet out of business by poncing free advice off him on the phone? Not got a leg to stand on have you? 😆
You're right, it can be a nightmare trying to interpret animal behaviour/signs. In the nicest possible way, it can also be difficult interpreting client behaviour/signs too 😉 . And you make a good point re stress at the surgery - it's often the worst place to examine behaviour/blood pressure/heart rate - hence the importance of good communication with the client. I honestly wouldn't worry though - it sounds like your dog is coping fine.
And I wouldn't worry about stealing time - as mentioned above, vets are one of very few Professions that don't charge time for advice, be it discussions over the counter or telephone conversations. Again, this is something that may have to change but I hope it doesn't.
I am not complaining about the level of fees.
Where's the bit I say that you were complaining about the fees ? .....tell me.
I'm basing my claim that you sound like a nightmare client on, for example, the fact that you appear to expect the veterinary practice to arrange a pre-consultation staff meeting to discuss your Missy's problems.
I can't see anything wrong at all, with the vet saying [i]""Yes, how can I help you today?"[/i] .....can't you make the effort and repeat what you told the receptionist ?
And also this :
[i]I look at my dog and think "Is she ok? Isn't she ok? Is her heart ok? Is she listless, or is she calm, what is listless anyway? Does she bark too much? Does barking at noises constitute over excitement? What is over excitement, is she stressed? Does she drink too much? What is too much? Has she got high blood pressure, is it too high, is it because we are at the vet and she is stressed? am I doing the right thing(s)" and so on, [/i]
At first I thought you weren't being serious, but I now realise that you probably were.
Good comment re client behaviour signs, will try to be aware of what I am saying/doing on Saturday. I may well be giving off the wrong signals - I have had a number of much-loved pets put to sleep over the years and I find the vet's surgery distressing (that smell, and, sometimes, seeing the faces of the ones who aren't going home) - perhaps this is misinterpreted. And I'm so afraid that one day I'll go there and the vet will say, "Sorry Miss Kof9, Missy is one of the Dobes who will develop DCM, (or some other life-limiting disease)" and I'm going to have to make the call, again, on the quality of life/quantity of life question.
Ernie,
Whatever.
vets are one of very few Professions that don't charge time for advice
Another thing vets will do free/at cost to themselves, is treat wild animals.....even if it's only to put them down. The time and cost for the drugs has to come from somewhere. Which I guess in the final analysis, must be the fee-paying clients. And quite right too.
no, im not a vet
im a dobe owner who has experienced incontinence and DCM amongst other things.
I'm too a Dobe owener (16 mths old) and am now worried!
soobalias, sorry about the DCM 🙁
Jase, best chat with your vet if you have concerns re DCM, remember that it doesn't happen to all Dobes.
Jase - don't worry. Dobermans are pretty hardy on the whole. Yes they have a few genetic issues & are prone to some problems but then so are most pedigree pets.
As with any pet (or purchase for that matter) do your homework before buying one, get it checked regularly (by a competant vet 😉 ) and if your's seems fine, it probably is.