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IanMunro - Member
To be serious for a second, I find it very wearing that every time there's a thread like this I and my colleagues are accused of perpetuating some kind of massive fraud on an unsuspecting public.
Don't you realise it has "individual dielectric insulation chosen for its sound enhancing electrical properties"?
Can't speak from experience for the Power-Line, but it's a proper NAIM product so I wouldn't be surprised to find, on listening, that it made £400's-worth of difference
I spent £70 on a "Graham's Hydra" powerfeed for my stack and it was money well spent, as far as my ears and music-appreciation brain circuits are concerned...
http://www.grahams.co.uk/hi-fi/hifiaccessories/naim-hydra.html
molgrips - Member
I am not a cynic but I am trained to be scientifically sceptical.
Me too. And the results of my experiment were that bi-wiring helped my setup, and bi-amping helped it lots more.
But that's because bi-amping has clearly defined and very measurable performance enhancement effects when done correctly (ie the crossover is before the amps).
1. Overall power available is increased.
2. By splitting the large amplitude bass frequencies away from higher frequencies, the high frequencies are not affected by non-linearities / clipping when bass amplitudes are high (which happens quite frequently with certain types of music).
There is absolutely no way you can even measure the alleged improvements of a most of cables, never mind hear them (although this may not be the case for Naim stuff, since they use funny designs that are sensitive to cable reactance).
I think some of the stuff on this page would help you in hearing cable differences in your hifi:
http://www.nathanmarciniak.com/elemental/
I doubt it...
There is absolutely no way you can even measure the alleged improvements of a most of cables, never mind hear them
not true, In fact I'd happily prove it, anyone down south fancy bringing along some cheap speaker cable and I'll swap the runs on my system. You can then, for yourself, hear the difference.
Arguing this point is like saying all HiFi's sound the same. Cable can and does have a profound difference on sound that comes out of your speakers.
Good educational material here:
http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm
With non-orchestral/choral music chasing 'perfect' sound can indeed be rather futile because you're not looking to reproduce the original acoustic sound but you're trying to recreate the sound the producer heard from the monitors in the control room when the recording was finally mastered. In which case you'd be best off spending your money on a load of acoustic treatment and a pair of these:
http://www.meyersound.com/products/studioseries/x-10/
Damnit; I promised myself I wouldn't bite...
I spent £70 on a "Graham's Hydra" powerfeed for my stack and it was money well spent
I'm sure that it's neatened up the cable spaghetti behind your stack a bit; but beyond that it's just a hard wired 5-way adapter. What effect could it possibly have on the sound...
not true, In fact I'd happily prove it, anyone down south fancy bringing along some cheap speaker cable and I'll swap the runs on my system. You can then, for yourself, hear the difference.
A better test would be to let someone blindfold *you* and then 'maybe' change out your cables for cheap ones and see if you could tell the difference - you reckon you could ? (any cynic in the south east up for testing MrNutts hearing ability?) - I'll happily send down some 'premium' cat-5 speaker cables...
Arguing this point is like saying all HiFi's sound the same.
No, it really isn't! In fact the horror when testing hi-fi's is how far from hi-fi most of them are...
There is absolutely no way you can even measure the alleged improvements of a most of cables, never mind hear them
not true, In fact I'd happily prove it, anyone down south fancy bringing along some cheap speaker cable and I'll swap the runs on my system. You can then, for yourself, hear the difference.
I think you ignored the word 'measure'
I'd happily prove it, anyone down south fancy bringing along some cheap speaker cable and I'll swap the runs on my system. You can then, for yourself, hear the difference.
You are on. I will take that bet. What is it worth?
I have some PA cable running my B&W speakers, costs about £1.80 per metre. You simply can't argue with ohms law.
stevehine - Member
Damnit; I promised myself I wouldn't bite...
What effect could it possibly have on the sound...
as far as my ears and music-appreciation brain circuits are concerned...
Perhaps you missed that bit.
Double blind trials! Do it ten times and see if you can tell the difference.
You are on. I will take that bet. What is it worth?
I am serious, I'll take your money if you are so confident.
When I first bought some Rogers AB-1 'subwoofers' for my LS3/5as, running from a Quad 707 (maybe a 306) I was very dissappointed as the sound was very dull and filtered compared to when I ran them before with a Rel sub. The AB-1s were in series with the LS3/5as, no change in speaker cable.
I changed from some 4mm stranded Quad branded cable to Nordost flatline and 'wham' the sound was completely clear again.
I have also had this effect when running some Cicable external crossovers from some Quad 707 amps, changed to a smaller diameter (Kef) cable and all the filtering effect went.
A tube amp I had at the same time wasn't affected like this.
I am not talking about improvement with cables here, just that some 'normal' spec cables managed to degrade the sound of my system. This implies to me that the cable forms part of the overall reactive load in conjunction with the speaker crossover/drivers and things aren't as simple as some people would like to make out.
I am talking about differences as large as when my Quad 34 was replaced by a decent pre-amp.
as far as my ears and music-appreciation brain circuits are concerned...
Perhaps you missed that bit.
You are correct; I did - however are you claiming there was a difference; or are you happily acknowledging that whilst there might not be a measurable difference - spending £70 made you feel like you had improved your hi-fi in some way ?
Double blind trials!
Wouldn't this require no one to know which cable is which until the experiment is over ? 😉
If the results from here are anything to go by; I know what my money is on...
[url= http://home.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_wire.htm ]Double blind results[/url]
There is no doubt with roughly 50% of users that changing cables changes sound.
It may very well be that these changes cannot be measured, but that could simply mean that the technology to measure the changes does not yet exist. The problem is, you have to know in the first place the nature of the thing that you are trying to measure so that you can, er, measure it... If you see what I mean...
In my experience, the perceptible difference between quality hifi cabling and solid electrical cable is obvious. The former sounds like music, the latter sounds like flat, expressionless noise.
[i]It may very well be that these changes cannot be measured, but that could simply mean that the technology to measure the changes does not yet exist.[/i]
It may mean that, but your argument has the same faith based logic as to those who believe in the various deities that you like to belittle.
As a start it might be worth maybe getting a degree in electronics, and building up an undertstanding as to what is and isn't measurable before offering the conjecture that something is audibly detectable, but not detectable by any instrument.
A tube amp I had at the same time wasn't affected like this.
That'll be because tube amps have output transformers and so the external load isn't directly coupled into the power stage of the amplifier; A well designed* solid state amp should be immune from this kind of artefact.
* NAIM excepted
Edit: Simply because I've never seen how they've engineered the output stages of their amps; I'm actually rather curious as to what aspect of the cable is important to the behaviour of the amp.
It may very well be that these changes cannot be measured
What absolute rubbish. The current being pushed through a speaker cable can very easily be measured. If you consider that the output of the amp is effectively an graph depicting air pressures (as is a record, a LPCM file etc). Both air pressure and electrical current are perfectly quantifiable.
Loads of people swear by homoeopathy, doesn't mean it hasn't been scientifically proved as complete hokum, same goes for cabling. The worlds most enthusiastic audiophiles cannot tell the difference between £1000p/m cabling and coat hangers and it has been proven, in double blind, scientific tests.
As I said above, I am happy to perform a double blind test for any and everyone on this thread and will bet hard cash that you can hear no difference. I love Hi fi, I have a lovely set up but I don't want to waste my money on snake oil. I will bet £100 that you can't tell the difference in a valid test with an independent observer of your choice.
That'll be because tube amps have output transformers and so the external load isn't directly coupled into the power stage of the amplifier
I am aware of that.
A well designed* solid state amp should be immune from this kind of artefact.
One would hope that the Quads fall into this category - especially since a lot of high quality speakers have been designed whilst being driven from Quad amps (Harbeth, probably Spendor, probably all of the BBC designed speakers).
I am aware of that.
Good... difficult to tell on this thread what background / knowledge anyone has...
As for the Quads; you would have thought they would have been immune; as a manufacturer they were of the opinion that speaker cable was unimportant unless excessively long and thin ....
If there is a difference, you should be able to observed it by recording the sound coming out of the speakers with a microphone and performing a spectral analysis, non?
It may mean that, but your argument has the same faith based logic as to those who believe in the various deities that you like to belittle.
Well, not exactly. Everybody is in agreement that there is an actual sound coming out of the speakers in the first place that might lend itself to differing perceptions. In the case of deities, there is no matching completely shared experience.
I bow to the superior electrical expertise, but I seem to remember an argument being made to do with the differences being something to do with the different crystalline structures inherent in variable manufacturing methods/materials?
I'm pretty sure (without going back over all the posts from the old threads) that it was suggested that the changes caused by these different structures was what could not be measured with the existing technology...
Not saying it's a fact, just a hypothesis, like...
different crystalline structures inherent in variable manufacturing methods/materials?
Not prepared to bet a hundred quid on it then?
Don't quite understand your textual link there, but Oh, sure. Set it up. NAIM equipment into ProAc speakers, please. I'll bring the CD's.
I know the guy who ran Spendor and now works for Harbeth, and was discussing cables as one of the external crossovers of his I tried worked well with a tube amp but not with a solid state amp - and he said that they used to see this on Quad 606s as well.
If there is a difference, you should be able to observed it by recording the sound coming out of the speakers with a microphone and performing a spectral analysis, non?
One day I will do this when I have nothing to do for a few hours - I have a Lynx two soundcard and a Behringer ECM8000 mic within easy reach of the hifi.
Don't quite understand your textual link there
Nah, there wasn't one, sorry about that.
I can certainly provide some Naim kit but I have a perfectly serviceable Meridian Amp paired to B&W speakers which will more than do the job. It is the cable/ears we should be testing after all.
Email in the profile if you are serious. Always glad to take the money of those who have more than sense. 😉
I'm not sure about the Meridian/B&W factor. I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences, hence those who maintain the differences DON'T exist, seem to be listening on "budget" Hifi setups at best. At least, that's my impression from these threads.
So Naim is higher grade than Meridian?
I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences
I shall get back in my box then and leave it to the experts. 😆
TurnerGuy - Member
So Naim is higher grade than Meridian?
In my opinion, yes.
Torminalis - MemberI think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences
I shall get back in my box then and leave it to the experts.
Oh, O.K. then. Where are they?
And ProAc better than B&W?
I did have some tablets once which where lovely on my tube amp but nasty on the solid state amp.
My point.
I'd be happy to accept the challenge, using equipment that I'm used to listening with...
I have ProAc Response D15's - they sound completely different to the Tablets.
I'd be happy to accept the challenge, using equipment that I'm used to listening with...
So would I! Your place it is then...
How can they sound completely different - surely all speakers from a design house should be similair - with only differences like lack of bass in small speakers, etc being present.
Can you get to Leatherhead?
I'd like to see the outcome of this.
Leatherheads near me - we could have a cable-rolling party!
I think it may be that only equipment of a certain level is the type able to show up these differences, hence those who maintain the differences DON'T exist, seem to be listening on "budget" Hifi setups at best
Oh good grief...
Are you really telling me that I can't tell the difference between speaker cables because I haven't got expensive enough equipment ?
And that you are prepared to prove it by using CD's as reference material ?
Are you aware of quantisation error and digital dither routinely present in CD's ?
Can you get to Leatherhead?
Yep, I live near Guildford. We could go for a ride afterwards if you like.
Leatherheads near me - we could have a cable-rolling party!
Sadly; I'm at the other end of the country; however I'm entirely happy to supply a set of pre-rolled cat 5 speaker cables to be used in the test if it's actually going to happen.
I'd suggest NOT using a naim amp; for no other reason than it claims to be specifically designed to run with a certain length and type of speaker cable.
I'd suggest NOT using a naim amp; for no other reason than it claims to be specifically designed to run with a certain length and type of speaker cable.
But the argument is, that all cable sounds the same...