[Closed] Used car purchase problem - has MOT but shouldn't

I'd say if it was a private sale your options are pretty limited. I looked at a car recently with a new mot and no advisories and it was absolutely rotten underneath. Not all mot testers are equal

The Motor Ombudsman would be a good place to start

https://www.themotorombudsman.org/knowledge-base/how-to-appeal-against-an-mot-decision

Probably depends on how recent the mot is if you'll get anywhere with dvsa, have you looked at the mot history to see if corrosion is mentioned in previous tests?
As above though private sales (and was it definitely a private seller or a trader trying to hide the fact?) are normally buyer beware.
Bad situation to be in though.
I remember buying an MG Metro with a fresh mot when I was about 18, took it in to a garage as the handbrake wasn't holding and they discovered the whole rear end was made of newspaper and underseal - bloke I bought it from initially tried to fob me off that it must have been an old repair and he had no idea until I pointed out that the newspaper used was only a fortnight old.

Which van is it some can have alot of holes and pass mot legit

I'm pretty sure it's a genuine private sale (builder who used canto transport workers).

Transit tourneo I think.

Ask another garage for a quote? Always possible they are just trying to get more work out of her...

Probably depends on how recent the mot is if you’ll get anywhere with dvsa

If the issue is related to corrosion then there are three months from the MOT issue date to lodge a complaint.

You're making a complaint against the MOT testing station. If it was a private seller they might not have been aware. If trade then contact trading standards also.

Bear in mind that the MOT tester can't tear the car apart for the test. If the rust is behind plastic covers, underseal, or just mud, then they can't go digging arroud looking for it.

I think the mot is 6 months old.

Challenging the not doesn't get her any money back tho...or necessarily help with that?

Get some welding looked at 🙂

So there was some ideal that this purchase had a few issues.

Have you checked the mot history?

What does the MoT history say , any advisories?

Nothing you can do, the MOT test is simply a snapshot of how the vehicle was on the day and time it was presented. It could be completely unroadworthy the next day and still be valid for 12 months. Youd have to somehow prove that the rust was present on the day it was teated and I cant think how you would do that. Also as it was a private sale, I think your options are limited even if you could prove that.

Is the garage she took it to an MOT station ? As said further up, I would get a second opinion.

How old is it ?

Nothing you can do, the MOT test is simply a snapshot of how the vehicle was on the day and time it was presented

This is not true - see the Ombudsman link above. Appeals can be lodged within 28 days extending to 3 months for corrosion.

Challenging the not doesn’t get her any money back tho…or necessarily help with that?

No, but you might help close down a dodgy garage. But if the MOT is 6 months old then that ship has sailed.

Transit tourneo I think

Yeah that's not one of the applicable vans. It'll be rotten as a peach being a transit/ford

^
+1

Welcome to Transit ownership. Said as a rusty Transit owner.

Take it back to the place that did the MOT for an MOT.

Thanks all. In a classic lesson of JFGI I have quickly find that the van should legally have been roadworthy and it's a criminal offence if not.

Obvious really when you think about it. Hopefully this will help her get her £ back.

In a classic lesson of JFGI I have quickly find that the van should legally have been roadworthy and it’s a criminal offence if not.

Obvious really when you think about it. Hopefully this will help her get her £ back.

Not sure what you’re saying here? Yes should be roadworthy when MOT’d, that’s pretty much the point of em. But. How are you going to prove it wasn’t 6 months ago? MOT testers can’t remove things, if it was lathered in under seal, mud or icing and sprinkles, they won’t start removing this stuff. Not sure how you’ll prove that the MOT was ‘wrong/dodgy’ 6 months back.

And as a private sale. How will you prove they sold your friend a dud. It had an MOT? To the average man on the street, that’s the sign of ‘road worthiness’
It’s also not an offence to sell an un road worthy vehicle. There’s plenty of legitimate reasons for selling such a vehicle.
Proving that someone misrepresented a vehicle and sold you a dud privately is hard. Proving that 6 months down the line will be nearly impossible* unless the seller has genuine remorse or a massive fear of the unknown and caves soon as approached.
It’s an older Transit. I’d be more surprised if it wasn’t rusty. (Sorry to sound negative, but they rot like carrots)

I'm just going by/paraphrasing a page on the AA website.

Not sure what you’re saying here?

Yea, I'm not sure what you're pinning your hopes on here. 6 months down the line you're going to have a difficult job proving the rust was there when you bought it, especially if it wasn't so obvious that your friend didn't spot it either.

She's only had it a few weeks, and here's the page in question:

https://www.theaa.com/car-buying/legal-rights

I'd take it for an actual MOT. I've taken cars for their MOT that the garage has sucked bucketfulls of air through their teeth at, which then passed, and others they thought were fine the testers refused to even look at.

Did she know it was rusty and needed welding when she bought it then?

Yes I see the quote you’re talking about, but also the bit that says getting money back is expensive and time consuming and more difficult for a private sale. I’m guessing she didn’t pay much for it so legal bills could easily come to more than the cars value.

Good luck anyway...

Given an mot is only 40 quid I’d say TINAS’ suggestion is a good one..

Unless she bought it from a dealer pretending to be a private seller, this is all she's covered for;

The only legal terms that cover a private sale contract are:

The seller must have the right to sell the car.
The vehicle should match the description given by the seller.
The car must be roadworthy – it is a criminal offence to sell an unroadworthy car and an MOT certificate from a test several months ago is no guarantee that the car is roadworthy today.

The last point is the pertinent one, but the page gives no further information. I assume she would have to prove the car was knowingly sold in an unroadworthy condition. I would suggest CAB is her first port of call, but eventually it's going to involve lawyers and will get costly.

It is possible that the garage she's gone to is taking the **** but I think she would prefer a refund or compensation to pay for the MOT.

Involving the Fuzz (or threatening to) would help with redress I would have thought.

compensation to pay for the MOT.

An MOT is £35, just get it done if she's worried/unsure (after all it's now her responsibility that it's roadworth).

Rightly or wrongly I can't see the police being in the slightest bit interested.

Involving the Fuzz (or threatening to) would help with redress I would have thought.

Good luck.

It helped me when I got my car vandalised.

Fair point tinas, I hadn't got to the point that she shouldn't be driving it...

The last point is the pertinent one, but the page gives no further information

That was my thought. It's certainly not as simple as being a criminal offence to sell an unroadworthy car. There's plenty of cars sold spares or repair. I can see there might be something in knowingly passing an unroadworthy car off, but that does sound applicable here

Surely you have to prove that the owner knew he was selling a rotten van.

With a valid mot that's the sellers defence...... Most folk don't stick their head under their vehicle ever. Most folk wouldn't know what they are looking at.

As I said. Good luck.

Various web pages say it is not legal to sell an unroadworthy car without stating so - but no source is quoted. It has to be at least an implied term.

Better than nothing...

Various web pages say it is not legal to sell an unroadworthy car without stating so – but no source is quoted. It has to be at least an implied term.

It’s not “that simple” and how do you prove it’s un-road worthy? And that’s the crux. There are a ton of things that could make it un-road worthy, but unless you can prove they knew and lied about a specific thing, you’d be on a hiding to nothing.

Any police/court option and they’ll use (and so would I 6 months down the line)

It had an MOT when I sold it your honour, I’m not a mechanic.

Various web pages say it is not legal to sell an unroadworthy car without stating so – but no source is quoted. It has to be at least an implied term.

Better than nothing…

Sounds like a tenuous link to throw good money after bad.

Sounds like a tenuous link to throw good money after bad.

This.

@oldschool a fresh MOT fail could do it, why do you think "knowingly" is relevant? Is that required for someone driving an unroadworthy car?

Just to play devils advocate:
6 month old MOT was legit, current garage incompetent or overly scared of corrosion?
Or worse sees car-unsavvy woman and does the teeth sucking, this’ll be a lot to fix routine.

Dodgy MOTs exist. I've seen some absolute rotters pass that never should have.

6 months down the line, there's no chance of any recourse.

This is part of the risk of buying an older car unfortunately - if you aren't prepared to get underneath and have a good poke around, you can get done.

No chance of recourse, as others have said if it’s a private sale.

You will just throw more money away. Spend it wisely and get the vehicle fixed instead.

That is the risk of buying a used vehicle. As other have said unless you are prepared to get under it yourself and poke it about, or pay for an inspection.

why do you think “knowingly” is relevant? Is that required for someone driving an unroadworthy car?

I think there's various definitions arround it. There's the things they could do at a roadside check like bald tyres which you're supposed to check yourself (and incur points/fine if you dont). Rust, emissions, broken springs, rusty exhaust, chipped windscreen, would all be an MOT fail but I don't think you'd get a fine from VOSA at a roadside check.

As your friend demonstrates, there's a reasonable chance that the average person just doesn't have a clue.

Thanks, interesting views (those who appear to have read the thread).

I've read many times that insurance lapses, you can get fined etc if your car is not roadworthy, it would be good to see a source for this having to be deliberate - that then relies on the honesty/mechanical nouse of the driver.

I’ve read many times that insurance lapses, you can get fined etc if your car is not roadworthy, it would be good to see a source for this having to be deliberate – that then relies on the honesty/mechanical nouse of the driver.

It wouldn't make any sense for there to be a 'knowingly' clause. Ignorance not a defence, etc.

Gov.uk

The MOT is only valid when it's done. Get pulled over any time thereafter and it's down to the driver to ensure the vehicle is roadworthy.

You're too late, chalk it up.

All old vans have rust.

Get an mot and welding somewhere you trust or punt it on cheap if your conscience allows.

Fixed it for you!

All old Transit vans have rust.

I’ve read many times that insurance lapses

Yeah but it doesn't matter how many times you read peoples writen thoughts on what they believe if there's not a source.

Yep just get it fixed

Or worse sees car-unsavvy woman and does the teeth sucking, this’ll be a lot to fix routine.

I've had this when mrs_oab dropped one of ours off for MOT.
They backed down on needing new headlights and springs when I turned up to show them how to adjust headlights instead of buying new ones, and showed them the first few staff cars also had rusty springs.
Get a second opinion, get it welded and a fresh MOT.

Just spoke to her,she'd been to 3 garages with quotes of £1-2K for the welding (& consistent opinion that the previous MOT was dodgy) and the van cost £3k. She's going to chat to CAB about it.

That sucks. 🙁

Update: she called the seller who has offered to do the welding themselves - I suggested she accept this only with an MOT (pay half) and don't get any underseal as she can ask her own garage to do so.

Not sure how this interacts with other welding that needs done but seems a good result to me.

Cheers all! - let's hope it pans out...

Sounds OK. Obviously get the new MOT from another garage

I’d say it’s worth a go - not a bad result if the welding is up to the job. Good luck to her.

£2000 of welding on a £3k van though 😳

Anything she gets is a result. Buying a van for £3k is always a risk.

The good news is that that's effectively an admission of guilt 😉

Story update: the seller made the repairs, actually more than needed for the MOT, but not to a great cosmetic standard. She hadn't got an MOT yet.

I feel it's not a bad result overall, car sellers can be decent!